OPINIONS: Undervalued Modern Books

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

I would like for anyone interested in this discussion to give us a list of Modern books that in your opinon are undervalued (according to OS and Wizard), AND please give your REASONS why. To be fair, I'll go first...

 

IMO, the "Man Of Steel" 6 part mini-series by John Byrne is undervalued. The "Man Of Steel" series is a product of it's time, the series spawned after the acclaimed Crisis on Infinite Earths by Marv Wolfman and George Perez. You might say that in the first issue of the "Man of Steel" mini-series, Superman was "born again" into a new Modern Age.

 

For those that may be unaware, a few differences between Modern Superman myth, and the Golden/Silver/Bronze Superman myth are: Baby Kal-El is the ONLY survivor from the destruction of his home planet Krypton. This translates to no surviving cousin Kara (a.k.a. Supergirl from the Silver Age), nor surviving people in the microscopic bottled city of Kandor. "The stories featuring them, were said to have happened in another reality-giving us, in effect, retroactive continuity." -quote is from the Man of Steel ComicBase title description.

 

Another difference in the Modern-ized origin of Superman is that Clark is unaware of his powers until he reaches adulthood. So with that tweak, the adventures of Superboy is also another alternate reality, or Elseworlds story.

 

And that's not all folks, the next change I'll mention is an issue that old and new fans of The Man of Tommorow often disagree and argue about. The Modern Superman began with toned down powers in comparison with the Silver Age version of Superman.

 

So why do I think the "Man of Steel" series is undervalued, and often overlooked? Essentially, the "Man of Steel" series by John Byrne is the starting point for the Modern Age Superman, and because it features a new origin of Superman, that makes it very important to the Modern Superman myth. Let's not forget that Superman is also one of DC's top 2 characters, and arguably their "flagship" character.

 

In additon to everything else I've mentioned, the 6 books of the "Man Of Steel" series are also aging, and by October the first 2006, the series will be 20 years old.

[blowout]

In additon to everything else I've mentioned, the 6 books of the "Man Of Steel" series are also aging, and by October the first 2006, the series will be 20 years old.

 

The series may be aging, but had a huge print run and the full run can easily be obtained in NM condition. The popularity of Byrne at the time meant that these books were hoarded like crazy and that is the reason for the low value now. That is not to say that the books don't have artisitic value, but they are never going to be worth much in monetary terms. There are just too many copies out there.

 

Check X-Men and Spider-Man #1s for extreme examples of this over-supply phenomenon.

 

As far as undervalued moderns go, you really have to look at the stuff with realatively low print runs that may experience increased demand later.

The books that readily spring to mind are independant books like TMNT.

[ninanina]

I've heard that early 200's of Amazing Spiderman in Near Mint are a little hard to come by. Maybe they are due for an increase?

 

Anyone?

[blowout]

Collectors shouldn't kid thereselves that ANY issues of ASM are hard to find in high grade (apart from 1st 20 issues).

The book has always had a huge print run and is easier to find in HG grade than most other Marvels.

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

The series may be aging, but had a huge print run and the full run can easily be obtained in NM condition.

 

You could be, and probably are right about the large print run(s), but couldn't this same argument also apply to Silver and Bronze age books? Check out the CGC census, and then tell me about the hordes of "Man Of Steel" books in NM or better condition. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that many people feel the same way you do, and don't think that the books are even worth getting slabbed, but then again, we don't have a way to PROVE that. I would guess, that because of the significance and the popularity of John Byrne, that many copies were also read and re-read by Superman fans.

 

The books that readily spring to mind are independant books like TMNT.

 

Cow-a-bunga dude! Let's eat a pizza to that! Seriously, IMO, the famous Turtles named after famous painters are quite lame for what they are. So, I'm not even remotely interested in the TMNT comics, as such it does not matter to me if they are "rare" or not. I did like a couple of the "Beat em' Up" video games inspired by the Teenage Mutants though. BTW, the second movie sucked a fat one!

 

But if we were to bring up some books "From a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away..." then I might feel a little different.

 

P.S. - I would be very interested in obtaining CGC 9.8 copies of "The Man Of Steel" issues 1-4, and 6. LMK if you find any. THX

[murph0]

While I agree that the idea of any ASM's past 200 being even remotely rare, I wouldn't necesarily say that pre-100 ASMs in 9.4 or better are real easy to find. But that's another conversation. While most ASM's in the bronze age have huge print runs, there may be the opportunity for a price bump, those Punisher appearances in 201, 202 are about the only thing with a true price bump opportunity. I've found that certain issues post-200 can go through hot streaks and raw "NM" or "NM+" bidding gets pretty hot..sometimes over 10 dollars..which isn't too bad. There's usually some real hot bidding on the Hobgoblin cover appearances too.

 

Brian

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

The book has always had a huge print run and is easier to find in HG grade than most other Marvels.

 

Ahh yes, but there is also far more demand for ASM books than for most other Marvel books. Supply AND demand should BOTH be factored into the equation.

 

Are Silver and Bronze ASM books rare or scarce in HG? In comparison to other books that appeared at the same time, in general do they guide or sell for less? In other words, are ASM books undervalued in comparison to other books released during the same time period? Hehehe, I think we would both arrive at the same answer on this one, especially considering all the Movie hype.

 

BTW - X-Men # 1 (2nd Series) and Spider-Man # 1 (Mcfarlane) are as you know are the ultimate example of large Modern print runs, and in comparison to other Modern print runs, they are the exceptions rather than the rule. What is the print run for Amazing Spider-Man (VOLUME 2) # 1? I would guess that it dwarfs in comparison to the Mcfarlane Spider-Man # 1 print run.

[delekkerste]

The books that readily spring to mind are independant books like TMNT.

 

I think TMNT and some of the other indies may be "undervalued" by Overstreet, but are not in the open market. Even beat-up copies of TMNT #1 (1st print) sell for more than the Overstreet NM price.

 

I've always felt the early Simonson Thor issues were undervalued...aside from #337, most issues command $30 or less graded CGC 9.8. However, after many years of waiting for prices to rise, I have to conclude that there is just not a whole lot of demand out there for the run (based on my observations, it is definitely more lack of demand than oversupply that is keeping prices low), and that the pool of buyers going forward will probably be an ever-shrinking number of people.

 

In short, I think most Modern books are properly valued relative to their supply/demand situation, and I think most people who are not named Darth would agree that "investing" in "undervalued" Moderns is a speculative (re: dubious, reckless) strategy at best.

 

- Gene

[Zonker]

Don't think any of the Modern books by then-hot artists will stand the test of time, for the reasons others have stated. Wouldn't use the CGC census as an accurate barometer of scarcity of high-grade books of the last 20 years. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy: books are cheap, no one bothers to slab them, books stay cheap. That doesn't mean there aren't boxes and boxes of hoarded books in high grade out there waiting for the market to inch upward.

 

Moderns have 3 things going against them:

 

1 High print runs for X-Men, Spidey, MoS, even Batman during the movie/DK period

2 Tons of speculators in the post-Miller Daredevil, post-Bryne X-Men era

3 Ready availability of reprints in TPBs and hardbacks.

 

Now point 1 above has dramatically changed over the last 5-10 years, so it is less of a factor with the very recent books. What we need then are books that have slipped below the radar of the speculators, and that are not part of a well-defined "run" that will be reprinted over & over to satisfy the demand to read the stories.

 

We need the equivalent of Batman 181 (the first Poison Ivy) an obscure book that only is important in retrospect as Ivy makes the transition to the cartoon and the movie.

 

Hey. Batman 181. Hulk 181. Just pick the 181st issue of any book, and you'll be set?

 

I have a few suggestions (more or less serious). More later....

Z.

[valiantman]

Moderns have 3 things going against them:

 

1 High print runs for X-Men, Spidey, MoS, even Batman during the movie/DK period

2 Tons of speculators in the post-Miller Daredevil, post-Bryne X-Men era

3 Ready availability of reprints in TPBs and hardbacks.

 

Those 3 things are certainly true...

Which is why very few "big two" Modern books have a shot in the "value column".

Let's face it, you're either buying issue number Six-Hundred-Blahventy-Blah..

(which means there are 500+ "more important issues" over the last 50 years...)

Or, you're buying the Fourteenth Different Title/Volume #1 for the same old characters.

(But, it's a #1...yeah, right.)

...and you can forget Image..."high print runs" are an understatement,

and no one's paying 1/4 of Overstreet's Image prices...

 

Looking elsewhere, independents like TMNT certainly catch your attention...

Maybe Bone and Cry For Dawn will hold up over time, too...

but most of those are already "valued" in Wizard and Overstreet.

So...what modern books ACTUALLY SELL for multiples of Overstreet?

(...and by ACTUALLY SELL...I'm talking about raw, non-CGC books...)

Well, by now, you've probably already seen my multiple soap-box posts for Valiant...

so I'll just leave you with this page:

http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/overstreetmultiples.asp

 

[FlyingDonut]

Put your money where your mouth is - Man of Steel 1-6 NM/M

 

Also, I have 200 Man of Steel 1s. Never opened. PERFECT copies. I'll bet you I can get a 9.8 out of one of those.

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

Put your money where your mouth is...

 

Sorry Dan, but I already have a raw NM set, a reader set, and last night I decided to purchase Man Of Steel # 5 CGC 9.8 I know, the price is a bit high considering the raw 9.4 book value, but it's the ONLY copy graded by CGC in the past 3 years, and I don't want to purchase 200 copies or more of each book to find one that I think MIGHT receive a 9.8. I did some checking last night, and found the number of copies printed according to the Standard Catalog of Comic Books here is how they break down:

 

Man Of Steel 1 (regular newstand editon) - 51,500 copies printed

Man Of Steel 1 (Silver editon, S-Chest cover) - 125,400 copies printed

Man Of Steel 2 (Silver edition) - 95,300 copies printed

Man Of Steel 3 (Silver edition) - 85,000 copies printed

Man Of Steel 4 (Silver edition) - 85,000 copies printed

Man Of Steel 5 (Silver edition) - 81,450 copies printed

Man Of Steel 6 (Silver edition) - 80,950 copies printed

 

I don't have the numbers for the REGULAR editons of 2 - 6, but based on the first issue, I would say that the Silver editon(s) are more common.

 

Just for fun, though because Moderns are so overprinted, let's compare some numbers starting with Action Comics 260 (from 1960) there were 458,000 copies printed up until issue 272 where it picks up to 485,000 copies and maintains that number up to issue 284 where the number drops to 435,000 copies, and then jumping to issue 308 (from 1964) the number picks up to 518,026 copies, and the number does NOT drop below 200,000 until issue 467 (from 1977). From looking at the cir numbers in the Standard Catalog, the lowest Action Comics print run (according to the information available and certainly NOT including Golden Age books which were considered to be disposable entertainment) up to Sep. 2001 would include issues 628 (from 1989 with 12,600 copies) through 684 (1992 with 25,100 copies). The lowest printed Action Comics book appears to be issue 641 (from 1989) with only 10,350 copies printed. The book sucked big time though because it was part of an all time low (in my opinion) for Acion Comics being part of "Action Comics Weekly" which began with issue 601 and lasted up until 642. I'll have to admit though, when DC decided it was time to change the title back to Action Comics and have it dedicated soley to Superman, they did it right by having George Perez jump on board to work on the title. I only wish that George Perez had stayed on the title longer.

[seank]

Undervalued?

 

I'm wondering if there will ever be larger demand or a market for a lot of the independent books that appeared in the 80s. Granted, a lot of it was [!@#%^&^], but there was some great stuff out there that's being ignored. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of Truman's Scout and Grimjack books, also Scott McCloud's Zot. IMHO, when McCloud went black and white in the end of the series and changed the focus of the book from action to character, he created some of the finest comics I've ever read.

[delekkerste]

I'm wondering if there will ever be larger demand or a market for a lot of the independent books that appeared in the 80s.

 

My magic 8-ball says..."outlook not good."

 

Granted, a lot of it was [!@#%^&^], but there was some great stuff out there that's being ignored.

 

I totally agree - lately, I've been picking up runs of great '80s indies for my reading pleasure. You can buy stuff for far less than $1 a book! I recently picked up a near complete run of Jon Sable, Freelance and Airboy on the cheap and have a couple more series picked out for imminent acquisition. Those old Judge Dredd comics from Eagle were spectacular, First Comics' American Flagg! was groundbreaking and GrimJack was always a solid read...and let's not forget all that great stuff from Pacific, Eclipse, First and even Marvel's Epic line.

 

I doubt this stuff will ever be worth anything, but for creative quality, the 1980s indies are among the best books published in the last 25 years.

 

Gene

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

but for creative quality, the 1980s indies are among the best books published in the last 25 years.

 

...in your opinion. I happen to be in the George Perez, Jim Lee, Whilice Portico, Todd Mcfarlane, Dale Keown, and Marc Silvestri camp. However there are other lesser known creative talents that I also enjoyed, such as D. Turner's work on the "Cage" books. The Hulk appearances were a visual "tour de force".

[blowout]

in your opinion. I happen to be in the George Perez, Jim Lee, Whilice Portico, Todd Mcfarlane, Dale Keown, and Marc Silvestri camp.

 

All artists. Don't you enjoy any of the great writers?

Most of the books by all the guys you mentioned suffer from style over substance.

[delekkerste]

Most of the books by all the guys you mentioned suffer from style over substance.

 

I couldn't have said it any better myself!

 

Gene

[Zonker]

OK, I'm back. First of all, for the purposes of this thread, we hafta assume there will be a comic book industry in the future. Now anticipating which Moderns might have a collecting future is (by definition) Speculation. I'd suggest that future developments in comics continuity will make certain Modern books "retroactively hot." When that happens, combined with recent historically small print runs, you might get a pop.

 

1. I was going to mention pre-Unity Valiants, but dotcomfool beat me to it. As someone mentioned, these would take off if the Gold Key / Western characters (Magnus, Solar) get bought and/or revived again down the road.

 

2. Miracleman, especially later issues. With McFarland tieing up the rights, there will be no new trade paperbacks or reprints for quite some time. Yet this series is a watershed, setting the ground for Watchmen and Kingdom Come. Heck, I thought Dark Knight Strikes Again was a remake of Miracleman 16, with Superman & Wonder Woman playing the parts originated by Miracleman & Miraclewoman!

 

3. Amazing Spider-Man 30 (Vol 2). Yes, it has been and likely will be reprinted to death. But if JMS stays in comics for long, and Spidey movies keep coming out, this book might be seen in retrospect as the "first" Modern Age Spidey.

 

4. Babylon 5 #1. JMS first comics work-- fills in continuity between TV Seasons 1 and 2. This is a long shot, and will only pay off if Babylon 5 develops a franchise in movies along the lines of Star Trek. The moment may have already passed, with the failure of Crusade and Legends of the Rangers. But I loved the original show!

 

5. A sleeper... there are only so many permutations of the classic Batman villains. And most modern attempts since Ras al Ghul have been losers. The only exception I can think of is the Ventriloquist & Scarface from Detective 583. Oddly enough, I first saw this character not in the comics, but in the Animated Series. So, the character has already partially made the jump into the pop-consciousness. 'Tec 583 also has the virtue of a great Mike Mignola cover:

 

 

There are other great modern reads, such as Nexus by Baron & Rude, Sandman by Gaiman, American Flagg! by Chaykin, America's Best Comics by Moore, Kurt Busiek's Astro City, but I don't think any of them qualify for collectibility, due to either their ready availability in reprints, or lack of mass-market visibility, or both.

 

Cheers,

Z.

[blowout]

Amazing Spider-Man 30 (Vol 2). Yes, it has been and likely will be reprinted to death. But if JMS stays in comics for long, and Spidey movies keep coming out, this book might be seen in retrospect as the "first" Modern Age Spidey.

 

The only chance this book has of becoming desirable down the line is if either Ezekiel or Morlun become iconic characters ala Venom.

Writers come and go, and their first issues are never enough to generate book value like artists are, so I don't think JMS's first Spidey gig will count for much long term.

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

All artists. Don't you enjoy any of the great writers?

 

You mean writers like Cris Claremont, Peter David, Frank Miller, John Byrne, Larry Hama, and David Michelinie? Of course I do, but I was making a quick comment, and the topic is about undervalued Modern books, not creative teams. Maybe you don't agree, but IMO art comes before the stories in the world of sequental art. Why do I say that? Because if I ONLY wanted to read a good story, I would read a novel, but I'm more of a creative/visual type of person, so when I read a comic book, although the story is important and enhances the enjoyment the art aspect of comic books is MORE important to me, myself, and I.

 

Most of the books by all the guys you mentioned suffer from style over substance.

 

...in your opinion. I've heard you make this type "Most of the books by all the guys you mentioned suffer from style over substance." of statement not once but twice to my comic book artistic tastes. Although I would not recommend relativism as a philosophy for life, art is much like music, in that "beauty is in the eye (ear) of the beholder". You might think that Jim Lee's art lacks "substance", while I think that it's very detailed, and that he has a good "eye" for human anatomy and the dynamics of comic book art. FYI, I can appreciate the artistic styles of many different artists, for example: my favorite comic book painters are Alex Ross, Joe Jusko, Julie Bell, and Joe Devito. Do these comic book painters also lack what you call "substance"?

 

Speaking of, what do you mean by "style" and what do you mean by "substance"? Let me take some of the work out of it for you, here are the Merrium-Webster's online dictionary definitions:

 

Main Entry: 1style

Pronunciation: 'stI(&)l

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English stile, style, from Latin stilus spike, stem, stylus, style of writing; perhaps akin to Latin instigare to goad -- more at STICK

Date: 14th century

1 : DESIGNATION, TITLE

2 a : a distinctive manner of expression (as in writing or speech) b : a distinctive manner or custom of behaving or conducting oneself ; also : a particular mode of living c : a particular manner or technique by which something is done, created, or performed

3 a : STYLUS b : GNOMON 1b c : a filiform prolongation of a plant ovary bearing a stigma at its apex -- see FLOWER illustration d : a slender elongated process (as a bristle) on an animal

4 : a distinctive quality, form, or type of something

5 a : the state of being popular : FASHION b : fashionable elegance c : beauty, grace, or ease of manner or technique

6 : a convention with respect to spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and typographic arrangement and display followed in writing or printing

synonym see FASHION

 

Main Entry: sub·stance

Pronunciation: 's&b-st&n(t)s

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin substantia, from substant-, substans, present participle of substare to stand under, from sub- + stare to stand -- more at STAND

Date: 14th century

1 a : essential nature : ESSENCE b : a fundamental or characteristic part or quality c

2 a : ultimate reality that underlies all outward manifestations and change b : practical importance : MEANING, USEFULNESS

3 a : physical material from which something is made or which has discrete existence b : matter of particular or definite chemical constitution

4 : material possessions : PROPERTY

 

Substance?