With technology scattering pop culture like never before... 1 1

[Bronty]

As someone who collects both vintage and modern OA, I will say that for the most part I much prefer the vintage stuff (I just wish I could afford more of it). The lack of word balloons on modern OA is a bummer, but it's not a dealbreaker for me as long as the page tells a coherent visual story. In my opinion, digital coloring and backgrounds are the much bigger issue. The large areas of blank space (or x's to denote black) that you sometimes get with modern OA leave the pages feeling incomplete or off-balanced. I'm not really interested in a page that looks like a collection of random figures or headshot doodles with no discernible context.

 

Headshot doodles? I know, ASM 121 cover sucks for that

[rocket1312]

I'll also add that while I prefer art with lettering 99% of the time, if the dialogue of a page in question doesn't make a lot of sense when taken out of context, or feels incomplete without the subsequent page(s), that can sometimes diminish the quality of an otherwise good page in my mind as well. However, this is more likely to come in to play when comparing lower end talkier panel pages. The higher end splash/action pages are more or less immune to this phenomena.

[delekkerste]

I guess if you're caught in logical inconsistencies , changing the focus is not a bad strategy

 

There are no logical inconsistencies...your syllogism breaks down because your premise that today's covers are all "perfect shots" is not widely shared.

[Bronty]

I'll also add that while I prefer art with lettering 99% of the time, if the dialogue of a page in question doesn't make a lot of sense when taken out of context, or feels incomplete without the subsequent page(s), that can sometimes diminish the quality of an otherwise good page in my mind as well. However, this is more likely to come in to play when comparing lower end talkier panel pages. The higher end splash/action pages are more or less immune to this phenomena.

 

Sure. Look, I don't like the look of modern art myself. I don't read new comics either. Just pointing out that what it looks like... is what it looks like.

 

In the same way that vintage art being B&W instead of color didn't stop old timey collectors from wanting it, the pecularities of modern art won't stop people from collecting it, it may just shift their focus to different kinds of pages.

 

The question is... what's the size of the pie 20 years from now.

 

mmmm I'm hungry

[delekkerste]

Headshot doodles? I know, ASM 121 cover sucks for that

 

ASM 121 is an unforgettable cover. 99.5% of modern covers are not. Thus endeth the lesson.

[Bronty]

I guess if you're caught in logical inconsistencies , changing the focus is not a bad strategy

 

There are no logical inconsistencies...your syllogism breaks down because your premise that today's covers are all "perfect shots" is not widely shared.

 

"by the old metrics" Gene

 

... where JIM89 is a classic because its a pinup shot. (its a lovely drawing, but that's not really the point).

[Bronty]

Headshot doodles? I know, ASM 121 cover sucks for that

 

ASM 121 is an unforgettable cover. 99.5% of modern covers are not. Thus endeth the lesson.

 

I'll leave that alone because I can tell your ASM 121 love is going to get in the way of any further discussion, and I've already needled you on it a couple times, but if you put that cover onto the story from #117, nobody cares about it.

[vodou]

Kidding and poking fun, but serious too... if we are going to use the old metrics then it's worth mentioning that even with the dialogue and trade dress taken away, modern covers are often the 'perfect shot' that yesterday's collector would want.

 

Nah. Whatever positives accrue from having glamour shot posed covers is more than offset by (a) lower readership, (2) totally generic/forgettable, (3) near-limitless supply. I read a lot of modern comics by this Board's standards and I couldn't tell you what more than handful of specific issues' covers from the past 15 years looked like, "perfect shot" or no. A perfect shot is no longer a perfect shot when it has nothing to do with the storyline and there are dozens and dozens of similar examples. Bo-ring!

 

That said, it's great when you can find modern covers which transcend the boring sameness out there and become iconic in their own right.

Sidenote: I ventured out (briefly) into new comics the last couple of months, to see what's up (after two decades away) and...holy geez how many friggin' variant covers does every issue have now? Ridiculous as far as any one of them being something an entire generation remembers!

 

How are the collectors letting the companies get away with this? Enough of us are still around from the last time to remember how this all ends (#1: with me leaving comics!) And that from 1/10th the old days sales too. Right?!!

[delekkerste]

Headshot doodles? I know, ASM 121 cover sucks for that

 

ASM 121 is an unforgettable cover. 99.5% of modern covers are not. Thus endeth the lesson.

 

I'll leave that alone because I can tell your ASM 121 love is going to get in the way of any further discussion, and I've already needled you on it a couple times, but if you put that cover onto the story from #117, nobody cares about it.

 

But people still care about #117! That's where your argument goes off the rails. Back in the day, covers related to the interiors almost all the time, and people can visualize and associate one with the other. People only read single issues back in 1973, so every cover that came out month by month was memorable. Nowadays, when people pick up the latest Spidey trade, 5 of the 6 covers of the collected interiors are not on the trade cover. And since they're pretty generic anyway, who gives a toss anyway.

 

Not to mention the fact that there are no Spidey #121s anymore. Today, Spidey #121-122 would take place over at least 6 issues (probably more like 12 issues, one story arc for the Death of Gwen and a second for the Death of the Green Goblin). There wouldn't be those iconic focal images that everyone remembers.

 

I'm not saying that I don't like Modern cover art. A lot of it is quite well done. But, there are so many legitimate reasons why the images are not as powerful or memorable or have the lasting impact that the older covers did (a lot of that has to do with the interiors being similarly lacking). And, again, there's just SO MUCH of it, especially with all the variant covers and such, and there's very little that makes anything really stand out anymore.

[Eric Seffinga]

But for the price of ASM 121, I could have so much other art.

 

I'm not a Spidey fan. Never have been. I'd take a raft of modern "forgettables" over that unforgettable butt shot, if it was my money to spend. And I'm not much of a modern comic OA collector or reader.

 

I'd go in eyes wide open, knowing my heirs would probably lose more of the money I spent on the aftermarket when I die with those modern pieces to sell, but I'd enjoy the other art more.

 

I dunno, it's a weird thing to speak for everyone. It's why I try to only speak for myself when I am parsing out the realities of "the market". I am satisfied both with the fact that I'm an anomaly in the OA world, and that I also know myself well enough to know that looking at a Spidey butt (that I couldn't care less about) and having all the comments in the world on CAF about what a stud I am, would mean little. I'd rather have a piece that makes me giddy, even if the rest of the world wouldn't give 1/2 a turd for it.

 

Maybe there are more out there like me? Maybe I'm a millennial trapped in the body of a 40-something year old good-fer-nothin!

[Eric Seffinga]

How are the collectors letting the companies get away with this? Enough of us are still around from the last time to remember how this all ends (#1: with me leaving comics!) And that from 1/10th the old days sales too. Right?!!

 

This bugs the ever loving outta me too. When do we start seeing the polybags and foils make a resurgence? That whole Dark Knight Master race nonsense? Crazy.

 

 

[vodou]

In the same way that vintage art being B&W instead of color didn't stop old timey collectors from wanting it, the pecularities of modern art won't stop people from collecting it, it may just shift their focus to different kinds of pages.

Don't you mean didn't stop them from getting Steve Oliff to color them? Of course it bothered a lot of people. The first time any of us took our new prize (OA!!) to show a friend or family member...the response was 100%: where's the color?

 

Will modern OA collectors pay the original artist (or a third party) to "finish" their pages? Seems somebody is accepting of these recreations of digitals that's occurring, but will that persist, will that grow into a secondary, post-publication finishing industry. Sounds a little crazy...but then so does having 'as published' OA colored too!

[Bronty]

In the same way that vintage art being B&W instead of color didn't stop old timey collectors from wanting it, the pecularities of modern art won't stop people from collecting it, it may just shift their focus to different kinds of pages.

Don't you mean didn't stop them from getting Steve Oliff to color them? Of course it bothered a lot of people. The first time any of us took our new prize (OA!!) to show a friend or family member...the response was 100%: where's the color?

 

Will modern OA collectors pay the original artist (or a third party) to "finish" their pages? Seems somebody is accepting of these recreations of digitals that's occurring, but will that persist, will that grow into a secondary, post-publication finishing industry. Sounds a little crazy...but then so does having 'as published' OA colored too!

 

yup, totally. To be honest? Still bothers me a bit on certain pages.

 

 

[Bronty]

Headshot doodles? I know, ASM 121 cover sucks for that

 

ASM 121 is an unforgettable cover. 99.5% of modern covers are not. Thus endeth the lesson.

 

I'll leave that alone because I can tell your ASM 121 love is going to get in the way of any further discussion, and I've already needled you on it a couple times, but if you put that cover onto the story from #117, nobody cares about it.

 

But people still care about #117! That's where your argument goes off the rails. Back in the day, covers related to the interiors almost all the time, and people can visualize and associate one with the other. People only read single issues back in 1973, so every cover that came out month by month was memorable. Nowadays, when people pick up the latest Spidey trade, 5 of the 6 covers of the collected interiors are not on the trade cover. And since they're pretty generic anyway, who gives a toss anyway.

 

Not to mention the fact that there are no Spidey #121s anymore. Today, Spidey #121-122 would take place over at least 6 issues (probably more like 12 issues, one story arc for the Death of Gwen and a second for the Death of the Green Goblin). There wouldn't be those iconic focal images that everyone remembers.

 

I'm not saying that I don't like Modern cover art. A lot of it is quite well done. But, there are so many legitimate reasons why the images are not as powerful or memorable or have the lasting impact that the older covers did (a lot of that has to do with the interiors being similarly lacking). And, again, there's just SO MUCH of it, especially with all the variant covers and such, and there's very little that makes anything really stand out anymore.

 

okay, so put it onto the cover of a charlton book instead. There you go, now nobody cares.

 

I understand what you're saying. I just think its too "get off my lawn" to assume that younger collectors who grew up on it will find it (ALL of it) inferior. Its what they know.

 

I think we agree that there won't be enough of them for it to matter though.

[SquareChaos]

What proof does anyone even have that younger people don't prefer decompressed art if they were raised on decompressed art? This seems like one of those "if they were offered x, they wouldn't want their y" stories.

 

It's a guess that gets repeated pretty often. I'd hazard many may not even know what the concept means.

 

I can totally believe that large numbers of today's comic book readers prefer decompressed storytelling to old-school storytelling - I'm definitely not arguing otherwise. Not everybody likes to read shorter storylines with more words in them. I love reading decompressed stories - you can read hundreds of pages in a fraction of the time it used to take. Again, I think it's very much like Chinese food - quick, easy and tasty, though not necessarily more satisfying over the long run.

 

I don't know if anyone has done a poll on what that means for the art, but, to me, while many may prefer decompressed storytelling, from an OA-centric point of view, it means that a smaller % of the story is happening on any given page of art. That's just simple math. As such, are there "key pages" anymore? Instead of 32 pages or whatever from the Death of Elektra storyline, now it takes 132 pages to tell the same story and so singular pages are simply not as impactful as they used to be. Also, often what is so memorable about those older pages is the dialogue! If Daredevil #181 was redone today, it would take an extra 100 pages and the art would be missing classic lines like "You're pretty good, toots. But, me, I'm magic." The pages just wouldn't be as special, IMO, and I think most would agree.

 

By this logic... more pages overall, fewer pages with key happenings... doesn't that simply make the few key pages more desirable? Fewer "good" pages from a heralded, longer arc than some of the big stories from the past would probably create a tighter market with fewer "A" pages. That sort of seems like the way forward for modern OA considering that most seem to agree that the pool is shrinking.

[SquareChaos]

from an OA-centric point of view, it means that a smaller % of the story is happening on any given page of art. That's just simple math. As such, are there "key pages" anymore?

 

On the flip side, the common complaint about modern superhero OA is that the artists are so mindful of possible OA sales that they load up an issue with splashes. And most big-money collectors buy covers and splashes. So what do they care that panel pages have less story in them?

 

This goes back to my own worries about ending up with a collection that is all covers and splashes simply because I have tricked myself into worrying about resale. The art of layout and storytelling won't be as well represented in my collection, if I am not careful.

 

I thought about mentioning this myself, but... honestly, more isn't always better. Most splashes these days feel generic to me. They're often extremely well orchestrated artistically, but I often don't care about the moment depicted.

[Bronty]

What proof does anyone even have that younger people don't prefer decompressed art if they were raised on decompressed art? This seems like one of those "if they were offered x, they wouldn't want their y" stories.

 

It's a guess that gets repeated pretty often. I'd hazard many may not even know what the concept means.

 

I can totally believe that large numbers of today's comic book readers prefer decompressed storytelling to old-school storytelling - I'm definitely not arguing otherwise. Not everybody likes to read shorter storylines with more words in them. I love reading decompressed stories - you can read hundreds of pages in a fraction of the time it used to take. Again, I think it's very much like Chinese food - quick, easy and tasty, though not necessarily more satisfying over the long run.

 

I don't know if anyone has done a poll on what that means for the art, but, to me, while many may prefer decompressed storytelling, from an OA-centric point of view, it means that a smaller % of the story is happening on any given page of art. That's just simple math. As such, are there "key pages" anymore? Instead of 32 pages or whatever from the Death of Elektra storyline, now it takes 132 pages to tell the same story and so singular pages are simply not as impactful as they used to be. Also, often what is so memorable about those older pages is the dialogue! If Daredevil #181 was redone today, it would take an extra 100 pages and the art would be missing classic lines like "You're pretty good, toots. But, me, I'm magic." The pages just wouldn't be as special, IMO, and I think most would agree.

 

By this logic... more pages overall, fewer pages with key happenings... doesn't that simply make the few key pages more desirable? Fewer "good" pages from a heralded, longer arc than some of the big stories from the past would probably create a tighter market with fewer "A" pages. That sort of seems like the way forward for modern OA considering that most seem to agree that the pool is shrinking.

 

stop making sense

[Bronty]

One thing that doesn't get talked about is that the younger collectors seem to have a massive need for attention. People not watching instagram and such may not see this - but those instagrams are like one constant stream of "look at me, give me attention for this stuff I have" posts. (happens here too, but less so).

 

So... given what seems to be an insatiable need for attention in that demographic, it may result in more dollars thrown at the A pages/covers and less and at the generic panels as well, on top of the other factors previously mentioned. I'm sure it will have other effects as well, although I haven't entirely thought through what those might be.

 

They will probably grow out of some of the need for attention, and in that same way will also grow out of the "experiences not things" mantra/BS in the same way that the baby boom went from peace, love and drugs to the ME decade.

 

That said, they will remain, IMO, more needing of attention than any previous generation and that will, to some extent, be felt in their purchase decisions.

[delekkerste]

By this logic... more pages overall, fewer pages with key happenings... doesn't that simply make the few key pages more desirable?

 

Relative to the mass of other Modern pages, for sure. But that's where the greater desirability stops, for all the reasons already discussed.

 

Rehashed discussion points for the bored:

 

 

Key happenings generally take place over more pages nowadays, so there is not always "one" page featuring that key event (decompression). Everybody can remember key panels or key pages from vintage issues. People can remember what every cover looked like from their favorite runs. What about their modern counterparts? One of my favorite runs of the Modern era was the Brubaker Captain America run. Of course, we know that Cap "dies" for a while. How many people remember what issue # he died in? How many remember what the cover looked like? How many remember what the page he actually died on looks like? And that was a huge event by Modern standards. Now try to remember a significant event from Ultimate Spider-Man and what the cover looked like for that issue, let alone the interiors. Cannot be done unless you have a photographic memory.

 

The lack of dialogue is huge. Much of the desirability of older art was also getting the crucial/memorable dialogue as well as just the drawn art. Imagine if the art to the last page of ASM #42 just had Mary Jane looking at Peter instead of her telling him he hit the jackpot. Or Wolverine showing up on the last page of Hulk #180 without him announcing his arrival. Or Phoenix sacrificing herself in UXM #137 without reading what she told Scott before she did it. This isn't just "get off my lawn" stuff. People don't collect modern OA because they hate word balloons and like their OA better with no dialogue - they collect it in spite of that, because they're fans of the current material and that's the only way the art is available.

 

Also again - much smaller audience. Not only circulation-wise, but, comparing, say, ASM #117 to ASM #639 (just picking a random number), a ton of people read ASM #117 through Marvel Tales, HCs/TPBs, back issues, Marvel Unlimited, etc. over the years so there's a much larger built-in audience for it. Fewer important pages isn't going to make them anywhere nearly as desirable as the older material because the built-in audience is so much smaller.

 

[NinjaSealed]

 

I can totally believe that large numbers of today's comic book readers prefer decompressed storytelling to old-school storytelling - I'm definitely not arguing otherwise. Not everybody likes to read shorter storylines with more words in them. I love reading decompressed stories - you can read hundreds of pages in a fraction of the time it used to take. Again, I think it's very much like Chinese food - quick, easy and tasty, though not necessarily more satisfying over the long run.

 

I don't know if anyone has done a poll on what that means for the art, but, to me, while many may prefer decompressed storytelling, from an OA-centric point of view, it means that a smaller % of the story is happening on any given page of art. That's just simple math. As such, are there "key pages" anymore? Instead of 32 pages or whatever from the Death of Elektra storyline, now it takes 132 pages to tell the same story and so singular pages are simply not as impactful as they used to be. Also, often what is so memorable about those older pages is the dialogue! If Daredevil #181 was redone today, it would take an extra 100 pages and the art would be missing classic lines like "You're pretty good, toots. But, me, I'm magic." The pages just wouldn't be as special, IMO, and I think most would agree.

 

Pretty insightful view, I am going to have to kick it around in my head. Interestingly enough I just reread Miller Daredevil recently and I guess it has been awhile since I read anything older, because I could feel the compression, but I guess that way it had more impact. The Daredevil/Bullseye/Electra saga would probably be told in a story 5 times as long today.

 

When it comes to decompressed storytelling I think the question is do the artist and writer add extra positive background/subplot to a story or not. When they don't it is like hitting your head against a wall, but when they do it can be like reading a good novel.

 

I think there is still going to be key, impactful and sought after modern OA work, but they are very few and far between. You can probably count on both hands the work that people will care about in the future.