Where is the cut-off point?

[Ssantoss]

Thirty years ago, 130,000 sales or less would put a Marvel into bi-monthly status. At that point, it had a couple of issues to recover or be canceled.

Just a point of reference to show how far the market has fallen.

Then again, the market wasn't as fragmented.

All the markets have fallen since 30 years ago.

Lower TV ratings for hit shows.

Lower music sales for top artists.

Comic books are just following the same pattern.

It`s about niche now or fragmented as you say.

 

Also comics were like .50 cents back then, so .50 cents seems a lot easier to move in higher volume numbers than the $2.99 to $3.99 copies we have today.

 

 

It seems like comic creators are chasing the right niche, and the right niche is the story and character that in a reliable way can maintain acceptable sales figures.

 

I do however don't think too much should be attributed to pricing since I do suspect that inflation have followed the pricing levels. Someone a lot more suave with economics can surely point out if that's right or completely of the (squirrely) charts.

[Ssantoss]

This got me googling like a neurotic squirrel.

 

Squirrels know how to use Google? That's it, I'm heading to my bunker, the end is nigh!

 

Well I did visit NY once, the sqirrels in Central Park seemed quite skilled in this and that. I could have sworn that one gave me the finger while reading a comic.

[aerischan]

From the SoOs covering 86/87:

 

Adventures of Superman - Print Avg. 307,033 Dist. Avg. 162,838 (53% distributed)

Batman - Print Avg. 294,779 Dist. Avg. 193,980 (65.8% distributed)

Incredible Hulk - Print Avg. 320,673 Dist. Avg. 153,826 (48% distributed)

Web of Spider-Man - Print Avg. 437,255 Dist. Avg. 243,007 (55.6% distributed)

X-Factor - Print Avg. 568,382 Dist. Avg. 340,982 (60% distributed)

Thanks for the research. It's very interesting. Even at 0.05 printing cost per copy, that's still a pretty high burden.

 

Also comics were like .50 cents back then, so .50 cents seems a lot easier to move in higher volume numbers than the $2.99 to $3.99 copies we have today.

It seems like comic creators are chasing the right niche, and the right niche is the story and character that in a reliable way can maintain acceptable sales figures.

 

I do however don't think too much should be attributed to pricing since I do suspect that inflation have followed the pricing levels. Someone a lot more suave with economics can surely point out if that's right or completely of the (squirrely) charts.

$1.00 in 1986 = $2.16 in 2016

 

http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1&year=1986

[ComicConnoisseur]

From the SoOs covering 86/87:

 

Adventures of Superman - Print Avg. 307,033 Dist. Avg. 162,838 (53% distributed)

Batman - Print Avg. 294,779 Dist. Avg. 193,980 (65.8% distributed)

Incredible Hulk - Print Avg. 320,673 Dist. Avg. 153,826 (48% distributed)

Web of Spider-Man - Print Avg. 437,255 Dist. Avg. 243,007 (55.6% distributed)

X-Factor - Print Avg. 568,382 Dist. Avg. 340,982 (60% distributed)

Thanks for the research. It's very interesting. Even at 0.05 printing cost per copy, that's still a pretty high burden.

 

Also comics were like .50 cents back then, so .50 cents seems a lot easier to move in higher volume numbers than the $2.99 to $3.99 copies we have today.

It seems like comic creators are chasing the right niche, and the right niche is the story and character that in a reliable way can maintain acceptable sales figures.

 

I do however don't think too much should be attributed to pricing since I do suspect that inflation have followed the pricing levels. Someone a lot more suave with economics can surely point out if that's right or completely of the (squirrely) charts.

$1.00 in 1986 = $2.16 in 2016

 

http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1&year=1986

With them most charging $3.99 instead of $2.16 makes me think of greed then.

You also would think with better technology of printing, and better distribution(better transportation) that the comic books would be cheaper to make than in 1986.

Maybe we comic book fans have getting squeezed on the printed prices over the years?

 

I think I will stick to Marvel Unlimited for $9.99 and ComiXology for $4.99 a month.

 

 

[Artboy99]

More relaunches means more #1s means more "collectible" variants means more suckers buying.

 

Bring on "The Incontinent Iron Man"!

 

Inexcusable Hulk

Unintelligible X-Men

 

 

 

Superfluous Spider-Man

 

The Unidentifiable Iron Person

The Genderless X-People

The Transitional Thor

The Ambiguous Avengers

 

[Ssantoss]

From the SoOs covering 86/87:

 

Adventures of Superman - Print Avg. 307,033 Dist. Avg. 162,838 (53% distributed)

Batman - Print Avg. 294,779 Dist. Avg. 193,980 (65.8% distributed)

Incredible Hulk - Print Avg. 320,673 Dist. Avg. 153,826 (48% distributed)

Web of Spider-Man - Print Avg. 437,255 Dist. Avg. 243,007 (55.6% distributed)

X-Factor - Print Avg. 568,382 Dist. Avg. 340,982 (60% distributed)

Thanks for the research. It's very interesting. Even at 0.05 printing cost per copy, that's still a pretty high burden.

 

Also comics were like .50 cents back then, so .50 cents seems a lot easier to move in higher volume numbers than the $2.99 to $3.99 copies we have today.

It seems like comic creators are chasing the right niche, and the right niche is the story and character that in a reliable way can maintain acceptable sales figures.

 

I do however don't think too much should be attributed to pricing since I do suspect that inflation have followed the pricing levels. Someone a lot more suave with economics can surely point out if that's right or completely of the (squirrely) charts.

$1.00 in 1986 = $2.16 in 2016

 

http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1&year=1986

With them most charging $3.99 instead of $2.16 makes me think of greed then.

You also would think with better technology of printing, and better distribution(better transportation) that the comic books would be cheaper to make than in 1986.

Maybe we comic book fans have getting squeezed on the printed prices over the years?

 

I think I will stick to Marvel Unlimited for $9.99 and ComiXology for $4.99 a month.

 

 

I do not think it's easily attributed to greed. I do wonder what other costs might have been added on through the years, some kind of increase in overhead? Salary increases that have gone above inflation rates? Distribution costs that aren't overtly apparent?

[the authority]

Thirty years ago, 130,000 sales or less would put a Marvel into bi-monthly status. At that point, it had a couple of issues to recover or be canceled.

Just a point of reference to show how far the market has fallen.

Then again, the market wasn't as fragmented.

 

Yeah, but then they had to print 250,000 copies to get those sales and trash half the print run. Now, without that significant waste and with other changes, the threshold can be a lot lower.

 

30 years ago, neither Marvel or DC were trashing half the print runs.

 

From the SoOs covering 86/87:

 

Adventures of Superman - Print Avg. 307,033 Dist. Avg. 162,838 (53% distributed)

Batman - Print Avg. 294,779 Dist. Avg. 193,980 (65.8% distributed)

Incredible Hulk - Print Avg. 320,673 Dist. Avg. 153,826 (48% distributed)

Web of Spider-Man - Print Avg. 437,255 Dist. Avg. 243,007 (55.6% distributed)

X-Factor - Print Avg. 568,382 Dist. Avg. 340,982 (60% distributed)

 

 

The direct market was well on its way to becoming the dominant distribution point by then.

 

Sure, and the (distribution %) numbers were generally improving.

 

Some titles were not even distributed to newsstands.

 

Marvel/DC titles without newsstand distribution were definitely the exception.

 

I'm curious if those print avg vs distribution means they never left the warehouse or if the publisher told the route driver's to destroy the books. The reason I ask, a friend I've done business with for 30 years used to buy both trading cards and comics that were pulled out of Stop n go, 7/11 stores, supermarkets and the like. He did not have a comic shop nor was he in any way affiliated with Diamond or CC. He got new, up to a year old, comics by the truckload.

 

Do you these supposedly returned/destroyed books are part of the distributed side or were only counted on the print side ? I have no idea. I can tell you this was taking place all the way through the early part Deadpool's 1st series (maybe through issue #10 or #20) and then he wasn't able to get them anymore. I don't recall if the seller retired or if it wasn't available for other reasons but it stopped.

 

So, what do you think ?

 

 

[mattn792]

More relaunches means more #1s means more "collectible" variants means more suckers buying.

 

Bring on "The Incontinent Iron Man"!

 

Inexcusable Hulk

Unintelligible X-Men

 

 

 

Superfluous Spider-Man

 

The Unidentifiable Iron Person

The Genderless X-People

The Transitional Thor

The Ambiguous Avengers

 

Let's not forget the Superbly Sassy Steve Rogers.

[ComicConnoisseur]

From the SoOs covering 86/87:

 

Adventures of Superman - Print Avg. 307,033 Dist. Avg. 162,838 (53% distributed)

Batman - Print Avg. 294,779 Dist. Avg. 193,980 (65.8% distributed)

Incredible Hulk - Print Avg. 320,673 Dist. Avg. 153,826 (48% distributed)

Web of Spider-Man - Print Avg. 437,255 Dist. Avg. 243,007 (55.6% distributed)

X-Factor - Print Avg. 568,382 Dist. Avg. 340,982 (60% distributed)

Thanks for the research. It's very interesting. Even at 0.05 printing cost per copy, that's still a pretty high burden.

 

Also comics were like .50 cents back then, so .50 cents seems a lot easier to move in higher volume numbers than the $2.99 to $3.99 copies we have today.

It seems like comic creators are chasing the right niche, and the right niche is the story and character that in a reliable way can maintain acceptable sales figures.

 

I do however don't think too much should be attributed to pricing since I do suspect that inflation have followed the pricing levels. Someone a lot more suave with economics can surely point out if that's right or completely of the (squirrely) charts.

$1.00 in 1986 = $2.16 in 2016

 

http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1&year=1986

With them most charging $3.99 instead of $2.16 makes me think of greed then.

You also would think with better technology of printing, and better distribution(better transportation) that the comic books would be cheaper to make than in 1986.

Maybe we comic book fans have getting squeezed on the printed prices over the years?

 

I think I will stick to Marvel Unlimited for $9.99 and ComiXology for $4.99 a month.

 

 

I do not think it's easily attributed to greed. I do wonder what other costs might have been added on through the years, some kind of increase in overhead? Salary increases that have gone above inflation rates? Distribution costs that aren't overtly apparent?

That`s a good question. So to follow it up.

I like to know are monthly comic books still printed in Canada or now in China?

I only read tpbs and digital now, so I would curious to see where modern monthly comic books are printed now.

 

[Ssantoss]

From the SoOs covering 86/87:

 

Adventures of Superman - Print Avg. 307,033 Dist. Avg. 162,838 (53% distributed)

Batman - Print Avg. 294,779 Dist. Avg. 193,980 (65.8% distributed)

Incredible Hulk - Print Avg. 320,673 Dist. Avg. 153,826 (48% distributed)

Web of Spider-Man - Print Avg. 437,255 Dist. Avg. 243,007 (55.6% distributed)

X-Factor - Print Avg. 568,382 Dist. Avg. 340,982 (60% distributed)

Thanks for the research. It's very interesting. Even at 0.05 printing cost per copy, that's still a pretty high burden.

 

Also comics were like .50 cents back then, so .50 cents seems a lot easier to move in higher volume numbers than the $2.99 to $3.99 copies we have today.

It seems like comic creators are chasing the right niche, and the right niche is the story and character that in a reliable way can maintain acceptable sales figures.

 

I do however don't think too much should be attributed to pricing since I do suspect that inflation have followed the pricing levels. Someone a lot more suave with economics can surely point out if that's right or completely of the (squirrely) charts.

$1.00 in 1986 = $2.16 in 2016

 

http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1&year=1986

With them most charging $3.99 instead of $2.16 makes me think of greed then.

You also would think with better technology of printing, and better distribution(better transportation) that the comic books would be cheaper to make than in 1986.

Maybe we comic book fans have getting squeezed on the printed prices over the years?

 

I think I will stick to Marvel Unlimited for $9.99 and ComiXology for $4.99 a month.

 

 

I do not think it's easily attributed to greed. I do wonder what other costs might have been added on through the years, some kind of increase in overhead? Salary increases that have gone above inflation rates? Distribution costs that aren't overtly apparent?

That`s a good question. So to follow it up.

I like to know are monthly comic books still printed in Canada or now in China?

I only read tpbs and digital now, so I would curious to see where modern monthly comic books are printed now.

 

I opened up some from my latest haul, they all stated "Printed in the USA" in the fine print. All Marvel though. Were they printed in Canada at one time?

[lou_fine]

That`s a good question. So to follow it up.

I like to know are monthly comic books still printed in Canada or now in China?

I only read tpbs and digital now, so I would curious to see where modern monthly comic books are printed now.

 

I opened up some from my latest haul, they all stated "Printed in the USA" in the fine print. All Marvel though. Were they printed in Canada at one time?

 

Yes, when I was buying new books back in the 80's and early 90's, all of the nicer quality books were printed by Ronald's Printing / Quebecor out of Montreal.

 

Sounds like Marvel is going to keep Trump happy in terms of his policy wanting all thing to be made in America. Now if he can only straighten Ivanka out since all of her fashion products like her shoes are all clearly marked as being Made in China.

[miraclemet]

From the SoOs covering 86/87:

 

Adventures of Superman - Print Avg. 307,033 Dist. Avg. 162,838 (53% distributed)

Batman - Print Avg. 294,779 Dist. Avg. 193,980 (65.8% distributed)

Incredible Hulk - Print Avg. 320,673 Dist. Avg. 153,826 (48% distributed)

Web of Spider-Man - Print Avg. 437,255 Dist. Avg. 243,007 (55.6% distributed)

X-Factor - Print Avg. 568,382 Dist. Avg. 340,982 (60% distributed)

Thanks for the research. It's very interesting. Even at 0.05 printing cost per copy, that's still a pretty high burden.

 

Also comics were like .50 cents back then, so .50 cents seems a lot easier to move in higher volume numbers than the $2.99 to $3.99 copies we have today.

It seems like comic creators are chasing the right niche, and the right niche is the story and character that in a reliable way can maintain acceptable sales figures.

 

I do however don't think too much should be attributed to pricing since I do suspect that inflation have followed the pricing levels. Someone a lot more suave with economics can surely point out if that's right or completely of the (squirrely) charts.

$1.00 in 1986 = $2.16 in 2016

 

http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1&year=1986

With them most charging $3.99 instead of $2.16 makes me think of greed then.

You also would think with better technology of printing, and better distribution(better transportation) that the comic books would be cheaper to make than in 1986.

Maybe we comic book fans have getting squeezed on the printed prices over the years

 

 

You are making a joke right? Did you forget the emoticon?

 

-printing costs have gone up, not down.

-books are printed on more expensive stock than in the 80s

-i think page rates for artists and writers have gone up since the 80s.

-employment costs in general have gone up (health insurance alone!)

-distribution costs have gone up

 

And more people are paying less thsn retail for their comics than ever before, and comics dont have a retail market anymore

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

From the SoOs covering 86/87:

 

Adventures of Superman - Print Avg. 307,033 Dist. Avg. 162,838 (53% distributed)

Batman - Print Avg. 294,779 Dist. Avg. 193,980 (65.8% distributed)

Incredible Hulk - Print Avg. 320,673 Dist. Avg. 153,826 (48% distributed)

Web of Spider-Man - Print Avg. 437,255 Dist. Avg. 243,007 (55.6% distributed)

X-Factor - Print Avg. 568,382 Dist. Avg. 340,982 (60% distributed)

Thanks for the research. It's very interesting. Even at 0.05 printing cost per copy, that's still a pretty high burden.

 

Also comics were like .50 cents back then, so .50 cents seems a lot easier to move in higher volume numbers than the $2.99 to $3.99 copies we have today.

It seems like comic creators are chasing the right niche, and the right niche is the story and character that in a reliable way can maintain acceptable sales figures.

 

I do however don't think too much should be attributed to pricing since I do suspect that inflation have followed the pricing levels. Someone a lot more suave with economics can surely point out if that's right or completely of the (squirrely) charts.

$1.00 in 1986 = $2.16 in 2016

 

http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1&year=1986

With them most charging $3.99 instead of $2.16 makes me think of greed then.

You also would think with better technology of printing, and better distribution(better transportation) that the comic books would be cheaper to make than in 1986.

Maybe we comic book fans have getting squeezed on the printed prices over the years

 

 

You are making a joke right? Did you forget the emoticon?

 

-printing costs have gone up, not down.

-books are printed on more expensive stock than in the 80s

-i think page rates for artists and writers have gone up since the 80s.

-employment costs in general have gone up (health insurance alone!)

-distribution costs have gone up

 

And more people are paying less thsn retail for their comics than ever before, and comics dont have a retail market anymore

It seems to me most everything else has gotten cheaper.

Look at how cheap

computers

laptops

cellphones

are compared to 20 years ago.

I can go into a dollar store tomorrow and buy a cellphone for $9.99

that same $9.99 can`t buy me more than 3 comic books.

 

Also with Amazon Prime I can have stuff delivered to my door within 1 or 2 days, so that to me shows distribution of products has gotten better not worse since 1986.

 

I am quite skeptical the paper costs more or that it cost more to print comics now than 1986.

With the advance printers they got now it should be in fact cheaper to print comics.

Back than they also had to mail the comic book artwork out, now they can just get the artwork off a cloud when they want it.

 

So yeah,I am skeptical about why the higher prices? For years we have been told the same song and dance because of printing and paper costs. Now we really want to see facts.

If anybody has facts that it costs more to print comics now than in 1986 than please post it here.

 

I think they have been skimming us at $3.99. They should be more like $1.99 if we go by inflation.

No way should one regular comic book costs $3.99, while I can buy an Image paperback at $9.99 before discount or a months worth ComiXolgy for $4.99. Something`s not adding up right.

Check out how cheap Manga is. If it costs more than how come Manga is so cheap? Manga uses way more paper and ink.

 

What next in 2 years $5.99 for a monthly comic?

That`s in America. I hear my UK and Canadian fellow fans are paying much more than USA fans in the states.

I think the best way to stop these high prices is to speak up about them. For too many years we comic book fans have done nothing about these outrageous hikes, and listen to the publishers complain about high printing and paper costs.

There is a reason why their market has gotten so small over the years in that not many people are going to be paying $3.99 for one monthly comic book.

It needs to be lowered to $1.99 and be more in line with other disposable media.

 

 

 

[aerischan]

It seems to me most everything else has gotten cheaper.

Look at how cheap

computers

laptops

cellphones

are compared to 20 years ago.

I can go into a dollar store tomorrow and buy a cellphone for $9.99

that same $9.99 can`t buy me more than 3 comic books.

 

Also with Amazon Prime I can have stuff delivered to my door within 1 or 2 days, so that to me shows distribution of products has gotten better not worse since 1986.

 

I am quite skeptical the paper costs more or that it cost more to print comics now than 1986.

With the advance printers they got now it should be in fact cheaper to print comics.

Back than they also had to mail the comic book artwork out, now they can just get the artwork off a cloud when they want it.

I reckon the price starting point of computers for ~$2000 in 1986 (~$4000+ in 2016 dollars) and comics for ~$0.50 around the same period has an effect.

 

With electronics, progress in technology and economies of scale (as well as outsourcing to China/India where labor is cheap) brought down prices.

 

With comics, pricing was already low to begin with so there really wasn't much give and prices increased based on inflation and payroll increase.

 

As for Amazon, they seem to have been exempted from making a profit by Wall Street so...

 

To be quite honest, Amazon's goal seems to be eliminating competition even when it means losing money short term. I've actually started seeing price increases on some of the products on Amazon. Also, they don't have employees, they have seasonal contractors to avoid paying benefits. Amazon makes Walmart look positively benevolent.

 

I think the best way to stop these high prices is to speak up about them. For too many years we comic book fans have done nothing about these outrageous hikes, and listen to the publishers complain about high printing and paper costs.

There is a reason why their market has gotten so small over the years in that not many people are going to be paying $3.99 for one monthly comic book.

It needs to be lowered to $1.99 and be more in line with other disposable media.

I reckon $1.99 is doable via digital distribution since the only middleman there is Amazon/Comixology (can't do in-app purchase on Comixology app anymore). Thing is right now for printed monthlies, retailers get 35-50% of cover then figure another 10-15% going to Diamond and the publisher only gets a measly 40% of cover price. Then you still need to factor print and warehouse costs.

 

Iirc, agency pricing ebook model was 70% to the publisher and 30% to the digital storefront. At $2, that's $1.40 per issue to DC/Marvel and they don't have printing and warehousing costs. While it's possible to make the $2 price point work for print, they're gonna need to make up for it with much higher readership volume and I reckon that's gonna be extremely difficult.

 

By the way, Marvel already has Marvel Unlimited for $10/mo or $70/yr. I reckon that's pretty much their solution for inexpensive comic distribution. I've already read hundreds of issues via Marvel Unlimited within just a few months and dividing my cost per issue, I get ~$0.20. Alas, since majority of Marvel Comics' revenue is still coming from retailers, they can't afford to alienate LCS by offering same day releases on new comics via Marvel Unlimited or by making digital comics cheaper than print.

[Lazyboy]

Thirty years ago, 130,000 sales or less would put a Marvel into bi-monthly status. At that point, it had a couple of issues to recover or be canceled.

Just a point of reference to show how far the market has fallen.

Then again, the market wasn't as fragmented.

 

Yeah, but then they had to print 250,000 copies to get those sales and trash half the print run. Now, without that significant waste and with other changes, the threshold can be a lot lower.

 

30 years ago, neither Marvel or DC were trashing half the print runs.

 

From the SoOs covering 86/87:

 

Adventures of Superman - Print Avg. 307,033 Dist. Avg. 162,838 (53% distributed)

Batman - Print Avg. 294,779 Dist. Avg. 193,980 (65.8% distributed)

Incredible Hulk - Print Avg. 320,673 Dist. Avg. 153,826 (48% distributed)

Web of Spider-Man - Print Avg. 437,255 Dist. Avg. 243,007 (55.6% distributed)

X-Factor - Print Avg. 568,382 Dist. Avg. 340,982 (60% distributed)

 

 

The direct market was well on its way to becoming the dominant distribution point by then.

 

Sure, and the (distribution %) numbers were generally improving.

 

Some titles were not even distributed to newsstands.

 

Marvel/DC titles without newsstand distribution were definitely the exception.

 

I'm curious if those print avg vs distribution means they never left the warehouse or if the publisher told the route driver's to destroy the books.

 

The basics of newsstand distribution. Part 2 is also related to what Buzzetta mentioned earlier about magazines and ads.

 

The reason I ask, a friend I've done business with for 30 years used to buy both trading cards and comics that were pulled out of Stop n go, 7/11 stores, supermarkets and the like. He did not have a comic shop nor was he in any way affiliated with Diamond or CC. He got new, up to a year old, comics by the truckload.

 

Do you these supposedly returned/destroyed books are part of the distributed side or were only counted on the print side ? I have no idea. I can tell you this was taking place all the way through the early part Deadpool's 1st series (maybe through issue #10 or #20) and then he wasn't able to get them anymore. I don't recall if the seller retired or if it wasn't available for other reasons but it stopped.

 

So, what do you think ?

 

 

The difference between the print numbers and distribution numbers is the returns, which were supposed to be destroyed. Your friend was almost certainly buying comics for which the publishers were not paid.

 

The largest, most famous example of newsstand return fraud is the Mile High II collection. If you've never read Chuck's story, you should.

[shadroch]

Chuck got all his books in one fell swoop. Many people got thousands on a weekly basis, I'm not sure who ended up with more. He was far from alone in buying books he shouldn't have.

[miraclemet]

From the SoOs covering 86/87:

 

Adventures of Superman - Print Avg. 307,033 Dist. Avg. 162,838 (53% distributed)

Batman - Print Avg. 294,779 Dist. Avg. 193,980 (65.8% distributed)

Incredible Hulk - Print Avg. 320,673 Dist. Avg. 153,826 (48% distributed)

Web of Spider-Man - Print Avg. 437,255 Dist. Avg. 243,007 (55.6% distributed)

X-Factor - Print Avg. 568,382 Dist. Avg. 340,982 (60% distributed)

Thanks for the research. It's very interesting. Even at 0.05 printing cost per copy, that's still a pretty high burden.

 

Also comics were like .50 cents back then, so .50 cents seems a lot easier to move in higher volume numbers than the $2.99 to $3.99 copies we have today.

It seems like comic creators are chasing the right niche, and the right niche is the story and character that in a reliable way can maintain acceptable sales figures.

 

I do however don't think too much should be attributed to pricing since I do suspect that inflation have followed the pricing levels. Someone a lot more suave with economics can surely point out if that's right or completely of the (squirrely) charts.

$1.00 in 1986 = $2.16 in 2016

 

http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1&year=1986

With them most charging $3.99 instead of $2.16 makes me think of greed then.

You also would think with better technology of printing, and better distribution(better transportation) that the comic books would be cheaper to make than in 1986.

Maybe we comic book fans have getting squeezed on the printed prices over the years

 

 

 

You are making a joke right? Did you forget the emoticon?

 

-printing costs have gone up, not down.

-books are printed on more expensive stock than in the 80s

-i think page rates for artists and writers have gone up since the 80s.

-employment costs in general have gone up (health insurance alone!)

-distribution costs have gone up

 

And more people are paying less thsn retail for their comics than ever before, and comics dont have a retail market anymore

It seems to me most everything else has gotten cheaper.

Look at how cheap

computers

laptops

cellphones

are compared to 20 years ago.

I can go into a dollar store tomorrow and buy a cellphone for $9.99

that same $9.99 can`t buy me more than 3 comic books.

 

Also with Amazon Prime I can have stuff delivered to my door within 1 or 2 days, so that to me shows distribution of products has gotten better not worse since 1986.

 

I am quite skeptical the paper costs more or that it cost more to print comics now than 1986.

With the advance printers they got now it should be in fact cheaper to print comics.

Back than they also had to mail the comic book artwork out, now they can just get the artwork off a cloud when they want it.

 

So yeah,I am skeptical about why the higher prices? For years we have been told the same song and dance because of printing and paper costs. Now we really want to see facts.

If anybody has facts that it costs more to print comics now than in 1986 than please post it here.

 

I think they have been skimming us at $3.99. They should be more like $1.99 if we go by inflation.

No way should one regular comic book costs $3.99, while I can buy an Image paperback at $9.99 before discount or a months worth ComiXolgy for $4.99. Something`s not adding up right.

Check out how cheap Manga is. If it costs more than how come Manga is so cheap? Manga uses way more paper and ink.

 

What next in 2 years $5.99 for a monthly comic?

That`s in America. I hear my UK and Canadian fellow fans are paying much more than USA fans in the states.

I think the best way to stop these high prices is to speak up about them. For too many years we comic book fans have done nothing about these outrageous hikes, and listen to the publishers complain about high printing and paper costs.

There is a reason why their market has gotten so small over the years in that not many people are going to be paying $3.99 for one monthly comic book.

It needs to be lowered to $1.99 and be more in line with other disposable media.

 

You seem to be focused on the physical cost of printing as it contributes to the total cost of production, but you ignored my other point, which certainly is the greater factor....

 

Employment costs. Know why things like The Hero Initiative exists? Because publishers screwed creators (writers and artists) for a loooooooooong time. Know what they cant do now? Screw creators. Yes it's still a tough business, and artists still dont get paid a ton, but there are far more "living wage" artists now than there used to be, and they can work w/o having to be on 4-5 books at a time. All those employees? (The ones that arent contractors) They get benefits. Benefits that are the biggest growing cost to employers regardless of segment. So that $3.99 doent just pay for printing, it also pays for Bendis's kid's braces, and Dan Jurgens little blue pills.

 

But trying to explain TCO to a bunch of fans at a comic book convention is a complicated process, so they usually just boil it down to "production costs", and fans dont think about all that goes into that bucket (besides just the cost of printing).

 

And again, I have a suspicion (and I dont know if anyone has done a study of it) but I bet the percentage of full retail price purchases is at an all time low. In other words there are fewer people paying the omnious $3.99 than ever. Between Comic shops passing along discounts to customers (for pull boxes, preorders) to online discount sellers, to online discount pre-order services (30% of virtually all major titles and often 50% off,and sometimes 75% off ) So Im sure some of that factors into Marvel/DC price setting.

 

In terms of UK/Canada, I assume some of the additional cost is due to import/ VAT taxes (yes even if they are produced locally and only the intellectual property/content is being "imported"). Again. It's more than just the cost of pulp and ink. And similarly employment costs for other countries is higher than US, so that again factors in.

 

And yes while Amazon can ship things cheaply, as someone else said, they are doing this at a loss (thanks to wild profits in other segments) in an effort to exert dominance as "the only game in town"and push other online retailers to the margins. Look at the USPS. Have THEIR rates gone down? (Again, even when transport costs might be flat, employment costs are increasing, thus shipping increases).

 

 

[miraclemet]

It needs to be lowered to $1.99 and be more in line with other disposable media.

 

1. Its not disposable media (do you toss your comics in the recycling after you've read them?). It's not valued as disposable media, so why would the producer sell it at the level of disposable media?

 

2. Know what dominates the space in disposable media (magazines)? Ads. far more than we suffer thru in comic books.

 

3. Most "disposable" media doesnt cost 1.99. Sure newspapers are still cheap (hello ad space) but grab your average magazine (People, Newsweek) and you are looking at between $3.99 and 5.99, heck in some places it's 6.99.

 

Know an industry that does treat it as disposable media? Manga.

 

A good manga (but not most popular) is Jump Square (targeting males 16-30), which produces about 260K copies monthly. 90% Black and white. A volume has between 22 and 24 titles, each being about 20-40 pages each. It's a brick at about 1 kg and it costs retail about $10-12 depending on exchange rates (some other manga are cheaper, some are smaller but this is a nice monthly average). Of course you might only like some of the stories in the volume, but thats how it goes. Page rates are shockingly low in the manga industry mostly thanks to a (relatively)closed system, so they can pass the savings on to you!

 

You will often find copies of these left behind at train stations and other public places as they are viewed as more disposable and there's very little secondary market for manage volumes. (though those that love them still collect them).

 

Again, it's black and white, far less detail than we're used to in most of our books. but in terms of price per page its great, but its also a very different production and consumption model.

[the authority]

Thirty years ago, 130,000 sales or less would put a Marvel into bi-monthly status. At that point, it had a couple of issues to recover or be canceled.

Just a point of reference to show how far the market has fallen.

Then again, the market wasn't as fragmented.

 

Yeah, but then they had to print 250,000 copies to get those sales and trash half the print run. Now, without that significant waste and with other changes, the threshold can be a lot lower.

 

30 years ago, neither Marvel or DC were trashing half the print runs.

 

From the SoOs covering 86/87:

 

Adventures of Superman - Print Avg. 307,033 Dist. Avg. 162,838 (53% distributed)

Batman - Print Avg. 294,779 Dist. Avg. 193,980 (65.8% distributed)

Incredible Hulk - Print Avg. 320,673 Dist. Avg. 153,826 (48% distributed)

Web of Spider-Man - Print Avg. 437,255 Dist. Avg. 243,007 (55.6% distributed)

X-Factor - Print Avg. 568,382 Dist. Avg. 340,982 (60% distributed)

 

 

The direct market was well on its way to becoming the dominant distribution point by then.

 

Sure, and the (distribution %) numbers were generally improving.

 

Some titles were not even distributed to newsstands.

 

Marvel/DC titles without newsstand distribution were definitely the exception.

 

I'm curious if those print avg vs distribution means they never left the warehouse or if the publisher told the route driver's to destroy the books.

 

The basics of newsstand distribution. Part 2 is also related to what Buzzetta mentioned earlier about magazines and ads.

 

The reason I ask, a friend I've done business with for 30 years used to buy both trading cards and comics that were pulled out of Stop n go, 7/11 stores, supermarkets and the like. He did not have a comic shop nor was he in any way affiliated with Diamond or CC. He got new, up to a year old, comics by the truckload.

 

Do you these supposedly returned/destroyed books are part of the distributed side or were only counted on the print side ? I have no idea. I can tell you this was taking place all the way through the early part Deadpool's 1st series (maybe through issue #10 or #20) and then he wasn't able to get them anymore. I don't recall if the seller retired or if it wasn't available for other reasons but it stopped.

 

So, what do you think ?

 

 

The difference between the print numbers and distribution numbers is the returns, which were supposed to be destroyed. Your friend was almost certainly buying comics for which the publishers were not paid.

 

The largest, most famous example of newsstand return fraud is the Mile High II collection. If you've never read Chuck's story, you should.

 

Thanks

[aerischan]

Know an industry that does treat it as disposable media? Manga.

 

A good manga (but not most popular) is Jump Square (targeting males 16-30), which produces about 260K copies monthly. 90% Black and white. A volume has between 22 and 24 titles, each being about 20-40 pages each. It's a brick at about 1 kg and it costs retail about $10-12 depending on exchange rates (some other manga are cheaper, some are smaller but this is a nice monthly average). Of course you might only like some of the stories in the volume, but thats how it goes. Page rates are shockingly low in the manga industry mostly thanks to a (relatively)closed system, so they can pass the savings on to you!

 

You will often find copies of these left behind at train stations and other public places as they are viewed as more disposable and there's very little secondary market for manage volumes. (though those that love them still collect them).

 

Again, it's black and white, far less detail than we're used to in most of our books. but in terms of price per page its great, but its also a very different production and consumption model.

+1. I actually wonder how viable something like the manga model would be for smaller pubs who primarily need to get the masses to try the stuff they're publishing. Weekly Shonen Jump has a circulation of something like 2+ million, I believe, and even "niche" stuff like Hana to Yume (manga for girls) has a circulation of 100,000+. Alas, collectors likely pose a barrier switching to something similar to the Japanese model.

 

Manga phonebooks use very cheap and thin paper. Ink colors used for black and white pages are all over the place. Blue, purple, pink. I guess whichever is cheapest. Popular titles get collected into volumes, typically tankobon format and even those are fairly inexpensive. I think around Y399-450 back when I was still buying them. Some of the really popular titles get fancier aizoban releases.

 

Anime Blu-ray in Japan is really expensive. They're usually fancy collector's edition with high production value targeted towards otaku. Aniplex USA seems to be moving to a similar model. Release anime via Crunchyroll (kinda like Netflix for anime) for mass consumption and then target physical media releases to collectors. Lower volume but much, much higher profit margins.