What about the other top SA books? 1 1

[Readcomix]

1 hour ago, SupergirlDC19591 said:

He only ever bet as a coach and only for his team to win a game never the opposite. He never placed a bet as a player.....never.

Thanks. That's what I thought. And I have no problem with it. He's a competitor, he bet on himself, essentially (as a manager). Who cares? 

But cheating in all its various forms is clearly okay. Keep pro baseball, it makes me feel like a sucker.

[SC22]

24 minutes ago, Readcomix said:

Thanks. That's what I thought. And I have no problem with it. He's a competitor, he bet on himself, essentially (as a manager). Who cares? 

But cheating in all its various forms is clearly okay. Keep pro baseball, it makes me feel like a sucker.

Pete Rose is the greatest competitor baseball has ever (4256 hits all-time king and 3 world series rings...Cobb has no world series rings but he has almost 900 stolen bases plus a life time batting average of either .366 or .367 depending on the source.....ranking him 2nd all time in bases stolen and 1st in life time batting average.....he has 4190 career hits....some say it was a little bit less) had and will ever have!! Some say it is Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth but the numbers don't lie....I would put Cobb second (a close second his stats are amazing) then Hank Aaron then Babe Ruth. Guy bet for his team to win not lose and this was when he was a coach not a player. He was bored out of his mind when he stopped playing baseball that is most likely why he started betting.

Edited March 9, 2017 by SupergirlDC19591
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[bronze johnny]

3 hours ago, SupergirlDC19591 said:

Pete Rose is the greatest competitor baseball has ever (4256 hits all-time king and 3 world series rings...Cobb has no world series rings but he has almost 900 stolen bases plus a life time batting average of either .366 or .367 depending on the source.....ranking him 2nd all time in bases stolen and 1st in life time batting average.....he has 4190 career hits....some say it was a little bit less) had and will ever have!! Some say it is Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth but the numbers don't lie....I would put Cobb second (a close second his stats are amazing) then Hank Aaron then Babe Ruth. Guy bet for his team to win not lose and this was when he was a coach not a player. He was bored out of his mind when he stopped playing baseball that is most likely why he started betting.

I could spend all day pointing out the reasons why Babe Ruth was the greatest ball player ever. The one distinction that makes Babe Ruth the greatest ball player of all time is that he not only hit for power and average, but was also a phenomenal pitcher. No other ball player could do this. 

Rose was a great competitor and he had more hits than anyone but he wasn't the greatest player of his era. I'd put George Brett ahead of him- Brett was a better all around player who also hit for power. We should never underscore what Rose did by betting on baseball and then spending years denying it only to embarrass himself and those who supported him- he's a disgrace to the game.

Let me also give kudos to Napoleon Lajoie- the "Frenchman" was right up there with Cobb. Lajoie hit .426 one season- higher than Cobb. 

Also want to point out another immortal ball player- Joe DiMaggio. DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak is the greatest baseball record ever and will likely stand longer than any other hitting record. A DiMaggio team never lost a World Series and take a look at how few times he struck out. One word for the Yankee Clipper- Incredible.

[SC22]

1 hour ago, bronze johnny said:

I could spend all day pointing out the reasons why Babe Ruth was the greatest ball player ever. The one distinction that makes Babe Ruth the greatest ball player of all time is that he not only hit for power and average, but was also a phenomenal pitcher. No other ball player could do this. 

Rose was a great competitor and he had more hits than anyone but he wasn't the greatest player of his era. I'd put George Brett ahead of him- Brett was a better all around player who also hit for power. We should never underscore what Rose did by betting on baseball and then spending years denying it only to embarrass himself and those who supported him- he's a disgrace to the game.

Let me also give kudos to Napoleon Lajoie- the "Frenchman" was right up there with Cobb. Lajoie hit .426 one season- higher than Cobb. 

Also want to point out another immortal ball player- Joe DiMaggio. DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak is the greatest baseball record ever and will likely stand longer than any other hitting record. A DiMaggio team never lost a World Series and take a look at how few times he struck out. One word for the Yankee Clipper- Incredible.

The only athlete that anyone can say was the best and will never be surpassed in his sport in Wayne Gretzky in hockey he has 2851 points no other player has even reached 2000 points ever (maybe Jarg will but he will never pass Wayne not even close....he is at 1903 points and is 45 years old). Babe Ruth was great but based on stats alone Hank Aaron had a better career with almost 3800 hits and 755 home runs (never going to be placed as high a Babe because of his skin color and he did not play for the Yankees).....the Babe got less than 2500 hits and 714 home runs (OK he pitched a few years that does not make even a 3000 total hits candidate).

All sports (baseball, basketball and football I am not talking about sports outside of these 4) are subjective (I exclude hockey because Gretzky will always be king).

I don't want to go to far into sports on a comic book forum.

Edited March 9, 2017 by SupergirlDC19591
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[bronze johnny]

If it were all subjective- we'd have no sense of any objective truths. You brought up your opinions about your favorite ball players- I respect that. I'm just pointing out significant reasons why others should be mentioned- based on fact. In the case of Ruth- it's not subjective to say he was the greatest if you look at his ability not only as an everyday player. Ruth pitched 9 shutouts in one season! You can't say that about any other ball player. Many of us are amazed to see a pitcher hit a home run- a rare experience for baseball fans. The idea that someone can both be an incredible everyday player and pitch is exclusive to one player in the game- Babe Ruth.

Seriously, do you think there is any hitting achievement that's greater than DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak? A record that's not based on among other things, compiling numbers?

You open the door to responses like mine when you say Rose is the greatest "competitor." It's fair to question this. It's also not a good thing to dismiss my perspective as just a subjective position...even in a comic book thread

Edited March 9, 2017 by bronze johnny

[SC22]

8 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

If it were all subjective- we'd have no sense of any objective truths. You brought up your opinions about your favorite ball players- I respect that. I'm just pointing out significant reasons why others should be mentioned- based on fact. In the case of Ruth- it's not subjective to say he was the greatest if you look at his ability not only as an everyday player. Ruth pitched 9 shutouts in one season! You can't say that about any other ball player. Many of us are amazed to see a pitcher hit a home run- a rare experience for baseball fans. The idea that someone can both be an incredible everyday player and pitch is exclusive to one player in the game- Babe Ruth.

Seriously, do you think there is any hitting achievement that's greater than DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak? A record that's not based on among other things, compiling numbers?

You open the door to responses like mine when you say Rose is the greatest "competitor." It's fair to question this...even in a comic book thread

Agreed....but I disagree Ruth been the best ever.....his story is the coolest ever that is for sure (a top 4 player of all-time yes...with Cobb, Aaron and Rose).  Joe DiMaggio had such a bad attitude always looked at people as if they where less than he was. He was a jerk most of the time with a pissy attitude. He was a better than average player nothing more maybe a 3000 hit player if he had not been drafted for the war but I do know if he would have even reached 3000 hits. Willie Mays was way better than him almost 3400 hits and 660 home runs. Ted Williams was way better than Joe DiMaggio as well as Stan Musial.

Edited March 9, 2017 by SupergirlDC19591
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[bronze johnny]

56 minutes ago, SupergirlDC19591 said:

Agreed....but I disagree Ruth been the best ever.....his story is the coolest ever that is for sure (a top 4 player of all-time yes...with Cobb, Aaron and Rose).  Joe DiMaggio had such a bad attitude always looked at people as if they where less than he was. He was a jerk most of the time with a pissy attitude. He was a better than average player nothing more maybe a 3000 hit player if he had not been drafted for the war but I do know if he would have even reached 3000 hits. Willie Mays was way better than him almost 3400 hits and 660 home runs. Ted Williams was way better than Joe DiMaggio as well as Stan Musial.

You're throwing compiled numbers doesn't work with DiMaggio- .325 lifetime batting average- wartime interruption- strikeouts? Mays, Mantle? You can speculate about where DiMaggio would have ended up - but let's be fair to DiMaggio- but for the left field fence in the old Yankee Stadium it's quite conceivable that he'd have hit over 700 home runs. Yes, he was a jerk- but now you're being selective in applying the "he's a jerk" rule- Rose was a good guy? Remember what he did to Fosse? The episodes about denying that he bet on the game? Ted Williams was a better hitter than DiMaggio but remember two things- 1) DiMaggio was one of the greatest all around players in baseball history- he did it all - 2) DiMaggio won the MVP the year Williams batted over .400. Simply put, the 56 game hitting streak was the greater accomplishment that year- DiMaggio's greatest achievement superseded Williams' greatest. The game has changed since the slapstick era- to the period where the night game was introduced making it easier for hitters to avoid the shifting sun- to artificial turf where a faster bounce made it easier to get the ball past the infield - to the steroid era where home run records were shattered as fences were brought in to bring the crowds to the game. Cal Ripken past Gehrig for consecutive game with the 162 game season. The one record in the game where era and changes in the game have no impact on breaking it is the 56 game hitting streak- steroids won't do it- moving the fences to where the shortstop plays might help- slapstick ball (Ty Cobb's era) where infield bunts were the norm aren't going to work in this era (see Ichiro Suzuki) and night games haven't helped. 

DiMaggio's record is a constant...

p.s.- Ruth was better than all of them!

Edited March 9, 2017 by bronze johnny

[bronze johnny]

One other thing  - They are all great players - including Rose (when he played before betting on the game). 

Correction- DiMaggio was on one losing World Series team- in his rookie year. His team won the next 9 they played in.

Edited March 9, 2017 by bronze johnny

[Martin Sinescu]

Babe Ruth completely revolutionized the game with the home run.

[Jordysnordy]

1 hour ago, bronze johnny said:

You're throwing compiled numbers doesn't work with DiMaggio- .325 lifetime batting average- wartime interruption- strikeouts? Mays, Mantle? You can speculate about where DiMaggio would have ended up - but let's be fair to DiMaggio- but for the left field fence in the old Yankee Stadium it's quite conceivable that he'd have hit over 700 home runs. Yes, he was a jerk- but now you're being selective in applying the "he's a jerk" rule- Rose was a good guy? Remember what he did to Fosse? The episodes about denying that he bet on the game? Ted Williams was a better hitter than DiMaggio but remember two things- 1) DiMaggio was one of the greatest all around players in baseball history- he did it all - 2) DiMaggio won the MVP the year Williams batted over .400. Simply put, the 56 game hitting streak was the greater accomplishment that year- DiMaggio's greatest achievement superseded Williams' greatest. The game has changed since the slapstick era- to the period where the night game was introduced making it easier for hitters to avoid the shifting sun- to artificial turf where a faster bounce made it easier to get the ball past the infield - to the steroid era where home run records were shattered as fences were brought in to bring the crowds to the game. Cal Ripken past Gehrig for consecutive game with the 162 game season. The one record in the game where era and changes in the game have no impact on breaking it is the 56 game hitting streak- steroids won't do it- moving the fences to where the shortstop plays might help- slapstick ball (Ty Cobb's era) where infield bunts were the norm aren't going to work in this era (see Ichiro Suzuki) and night games haven't helped. 

DiMaggio's record is a constant...

p.s.- Ruth was better than all of them!

I tend to agree with you about DiMaggio's streak and that it will probably never be broken. And bang on with all the changes to the game having no impact on breaking that record. You could argue that Cy Young's total of 749 COMPLETE games is the most unbreakable record in baseball, even if you take away late inning specialists - the 2016 MLB leaders in complete games were Cueto  5 (NL) and Sale 6 (AL). It's simply amazing to think about that record. The game has undergone many changes over the last 15 years, some good and some not so good. It's a shame how they are trying to "modernize and speed up" the game to capture the attention of younger fans - I understand WHY they are doing it, I just don't like it ( true I am in the older demographic that MLB doesn't have to worry about as I'm not going anywhere).

[pemart1966]

10 hours ago, SupergirlDC19591 said:

The 1952 Topps Mantle is doing well still in PSA 7 and higher not as much in PSA 5 and lower (PSA 6 seems to be more stable).  To be honest his 1951 Bowman has much more room to grow plus it is his true rookie card (I would say it still has between 200% & 300% to go in each grade....the 1952 in PSA 7 and higher maybe has 50% to 75% still in potential growth).  Mickey is not my favorite player I much prefer Willie Mays during that time period and Hank Aaron. In the early days of baseball Ty Cobb would be my choice (don't get me wrong Babe Ruth is a close second) with Pitcher Christy Mathewson.....as for the 19th century Cap Anson would be my favorite (1st player to ever hit 3000 hits). And the only player I like a lot after the 1960's is Pete Rose the hit king with 4256 hits (Ty Cobb is the only other player to ever get over 4000 hits in MLB). Now I just listen to baseball because I enjoy the sport a lot....but I have no favorite player (s) or team (s). Don't get me wrong Nolan Ryan was one heck of a pitcher and many other great players played the game but after Pete Rose none of them are even close to what he was as a player. I also like Connie Mack, Willie Keller, Cy Young, Frank Baker, Mordecai Brown, Tris Speaker, Branch Rickey, Honus Wagner and so on from the early 20th century (my favorite period in baseball history). I would also add Roberto Clemente from the mid 1950's to his death (he hit exactly 3000 hits) as been a great all around player. 

As for the Negro Leagues 2 names stand out Satchel Page (maybe the greatest pitcher of all-time) and Josh Gibson (hit more home runs than Babe Ruth with over 800).

Anointing Cap Anson as the first player to reach 3,000 hits is not a "home run".

Depending upon what source you're looking at Anson never even reached the 3,000 hit plateau.  

Anson played his first 5 professional seasons (1871-1875) in the National Association.  Most sources disregard his statistics there as the National Association was not considered a true "major league".

Secondly,  in 1887, walks counted as hits for, I believe, the only time in MLB history.  Sources do not count the 60 walks that he had during the 1887 season in his career "hit" total.

Lastly, record keeping was sporadic and haphazard during the 19th century and even into the early 20th century - Anson played his entire career in the 19th century.

 

 

[Jordysnordy]

4 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

I could spend all day pointing out the reasons why Babe Ruth was the greatest ball player ever. The one distinction that makes Babe Ruth the greatest ball player of all time is that he not only hit for power and average, but was also a phenomenal pitcher. No other ball player could do this. 

Rose was a great competitor and he had more hits than anyone but he wasn't the greatest player of his era. I'd put George Brett ahead of him- Brett was a better all around player who also hit for power. We should never underscore what Rose did by betting on baseball and then spending years denying it only to embarrass himself and those who supported him- he's a disgrace to the game.

Let me also give kudos to Napoleon Lajoie- the "Frenchman" was right up there with Cobb. Lajoie hit .426 one season- higher than Cobb. 

Also want to point out another immortal ball player- Joe DiMaggio. DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak is the greatest baseball record ever and will likely stand longer than any other hitting record. A DiMaggio team never lost a World Series and take a look at how few times he struck out. One word for the Yankee Clipper- Incredible.

And now he's in Vegas sitting in a mall signing autographed balls saying "hit king" after Ichiro passed his "professional baseball' record of hits. And he's very bitter and salty about that. The man was a very good player - to argue against that would be silly - but his life skills suck.

I would even put Thurman Munson ahead of Rose as a fierce competitor in the same era, along with Brett. Despised by many, Munson was respected by most.

[G.A.tor]

Many of the baseball aficionados I've talked to put Rose top 20, maybe even top 10/15. Many not even top 20! 

 I've never heard anyone say greatest ever. He just wasn't (as much as I loved to watch him play). 

Edited March 9, 2017 by G.A.tor

[Foley]

2 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

Yes, he was a jerk- but now you're being selective in applying the "he's a jerk" rule

Exactly. Ty Cobb was possibly the biggest jerk in the history of baseball, but the OP seems to have no issue with him saying Cobb is his choice for favorite player "of the early days"

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

1 hour ago, Martin Sinescu said:

Babe Ruth completely revolutionized the game with the home run.

+1

Babe Ruth put baseball on the map. He owned the 1920s. 

He is the Superman and Batman of the golden age of baseball.

[zhamlau]

3 hours ago, SupergirlDC19591 said:

The only athlete that anyone can say was the best and will never be surpassed in his sport in Wayne Gretzky in hockey he has 2851 points no other player has even reached 2000 points ever (maybe Jarg will but he will never pass Wayne not even close....he is at 1903 points and is 45 years old). Babe Ruth was great but based on stats alone Hank Aaron had a better career with almost 3800 hits and 755 home runs (never going to be placed as high a Babe because of his skin color and he did not play for the Yankees).....the Babe got less than 2500 hits and 714 home runs (OK he pitched a few years that does not make even a 3000 total hits candidate).

All sports (baseball, basketball and football I am not talking about sports outside of these 4) are subjective (I exclude hockey because Gretzky will always be king).

I don't want to go to far into sports on a comic book forum.

How you define Gretzky as the greatest really depends on how you define "greatest". Statistically of course, he had more assists than anyone else has points. Had he not been credited with scoring ONE goal in his NHL career he would still be the all time points leader. But an argument can also be made that his game was seriously lacking in a physical element. I'm not just saying fighting (think he only had 2 fights in his life), but overall physical play and checking which is a major part of the game he wasn't very good at. He just didn't do it. He had other guys like Semenko and McSorley basically protecting him and roughing up anyone who managed to even check him hard. That entire team was designed to give him every opportunity to score without interference. It was a good move they won 4 cups with him and that model, but it also really helped to inflate his offensive numbers. He only scored 50 goals one time after leaving Edmonton in the prime of his career. He scored a lot, but he had a LOT of help getting there in the highest overall scoring era the sport has ever seen. Hell Jimmy Carson and Craig Simpson had 50 goals seasons in that era (and oddly both played on Edmonton too at one point in their careers). Everyone was scoring in the 80s (hey now!). Offense was nuts when he played, no one touched the guy allowing him to score or set up goals at will, and the entire team was stacked with talent making his life easier. When he left that team his numbers came back down to earth (good but inline with other great players of the era). HE WAS STILL AWESOME and easily 2nd best of all time...but if talking entire game he wasn't number 1.

I would say the best overall player in the NHL was Gordie Howe.  IF you want I can go into his numbers and how in the ERA he played in his prime even having being a 50 goal scorer in the league was rare at times. I will just say this...He played NHL hockey in 5 different Decades...and every year he played he was either the best or one of the best. That fact alone to makes it hard for me to not say he was the best. Consistent total game performance during 5 different decades...mind blowing.

[ComicConnoisseur]

49 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

How you define Gretzky as the greatest really depends on how you define "greatest". Statistically of course, he had more assists than anyone else has points. Had he not been credited with scoring ONE goal in his NHL career he would still be the all time points leader. But an argument can also be made that his game was seriously lacking in a physical element. I'm not just saying fighting (think he only had 2 fights in his life), but overall physical play and checking which is a major part of the game he wasn't very good at. He just didn't do it. He had other guys like Semenko and McSorley basically protecting him and roughing up anyone who managed to even check him hard. That entire team was designed to give him every opportunity to score without interference. It was a good move they won 4 cups with him and that model, but it also really helped to inflate his offensive numbers. He only scored 50 goals one time after leaving Edmonton in the prime of his career. He scored a lot, but he had a LOT of help getting there in the highest overall scoring era the sport has ever seen. Hell Jimmy Carson and Craig Simpson had 50 goals seasons in that era (and oddly both played on Edmonton too at one point in their careers). Everyone was scoring in the 80s (hey now!). Offense was nuts when he played, no one touched the guy allowing him to score or set up goals at will, and the entire team was stacked with talent making his life easier. When he left that team his numbers came back down to earth (good but inline with other great players of the era). HE WAS STILL AWESOME and easily 2nd best of all time...but if talking entire game he wasn't number 1.

I would say the best overall player in the NHL was Gordie Howe.  IF you want I can go into his numbers and how in the ERA he played in his prime even having being a 50 goal scorer in the league was rare at times. I will just say this...He played NHL hockey in 5 different Decades...and every year he played he was either the best or one of the best. That fact alone to makes it hard for me to not say he was the best. Consistent total game performance during 5 different decades...mind blowing.

For some reason I have a Boston bias for this guy being the greatest hockey player of all-time?

[Jordysnordy]

6 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

For some reason I have a Boston bias for this guy being the greatest hockey player of all-time?

Debating GOATs in any sport is great fun. In hockey you can't go wrong with Orr, Howe, Lemieux or Gretzky. It's unfortunate that Lemieux missed lots of time due to injuries and cancer. He combined speed, size and strength like no one else. He was a totally dominant player.

[pemart1966]

14 minutes ago, Jordysnordy said:

Debating GOATs in any sport is great fun. In hockey you can't go wrong with Orr, Howe, Lemieux or Gretzky. It's unfortunate that Lemieux missed lots of time due to injuries and cancer. He combined speed, size and strength like no one else. He was a totally dominant player.

 

24 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

For some reason I have a Boston bias for this guy being the greatest hockey player of all-time?

Unfortunately not for me - didn't play long enough due to early and chronic injuries.

[zhamlau]

23 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

For some reason I have a Boston bias for this guy being the greatest hockey player of all-time?

Honestly the only reason he isn't 1 is because of his knees and its impact on shortening of his career. Talent wise no one can argue against him.