What about the other top SA books? 1 1

[burntboy]

Ruth posted a .671 winning percentage over 10 years and 140 regular season games with a .228 ERA.    His ERA in the Post season was .087.  When considered alongside his world class offensive stats, His case is STRONG...

Crisco; thanks for remembering me - going to head east tomorrow and check out Carbo's Con...

[chrisco37]

Your books are legend.  The first OO Collection in board history.

[kimik]

8 hours ago, Patriot6 said:

I feel that Maurice Richard needs to be in there probably at the expense of Orr

If you look at goal totals for Howe and Richard from Howe's rookie year (1946-47) until Richard's retirement (1959-60), Howe actually outscored him 446 to 430. Richard had a 50 goal season a bit earlier than that (which Howe never did), but he was not as consistent overall. From a total points (G+A) perspective, Howe had significantly more points than Richard during that period I used for total goals. It was not even close. I don't know if I would even have Richard in my top 10 hockey players of all time. He was very good to great for his era, but the overall level of play was so much weaker than the 70s or 80s (let alone today) that I personally discount it quite a bit. 

I would put Orr ahead of both Richard and Howe due to his outstanding play as an overall defender and his much greater impact on the game (he could fight as well, but did not have to do that very often). Looking at his stats will make you appreciate how brilliant he was. From 1969-70 through 1974-75 he scored more than 100 points per season (and won two Art Ross trophies). His skating, skill, and hockey sense revolutionized the way dmen played the game. That is why a lot of my older relatives will argue that he is the GOAT instead of Gretzky. Watching him change his pace while going end to end at will in highlights is as much fun as watching McDavid burn present day NHL dmen. It is too bad that Orr blew out his knee in a charity game - the records he would have set for dmen would likely have never been touched if he had a healthy 10 - 15 year career. In his last healthy season he hit 46G + 89A for 135 points. That was at 27 years old, which would have given him another 5 or so years of high level production (maybe more due to the way he skated). 

[bronze johnny]

5 hours ago, SupergirlDC19591 said:

Yes he pitched but who was the better batter....Cobb.

You keep missing the point: Ruth did it all. There's no doubt about  Ty Cobb's place in Baseball history. Cobb played in the slapstick era where hitting over .400 was not unusual and he was never a power hitter. Cobb, like other greats during his era, relied on infield hits and speed. That's not a knock on slapstick ball but a significant point about the way the game was played and how different it was. Ruth came along and changed the game by combining power and hitting in a way never seen before.

You could compare Gretzky to Ruth if Gretzky had also been a tremendous goal tender in addition to his place in hockey history as the games greatest scorer. This is what separates Ruth from the rest- you're just not getting the fact that Ruth did something no one has ever done- pitch and hit. 

Do you have any idea what Ruth's hitting stats would have been if he didn't pitch in his earlier years?

 

Edited March 11, 2017 by bronze johnny

[Martin Sinescu]

And, again, Ruth transitioned from being a great pitcher to not only become a great batter, but to completely revolutionize the sport's approach to offense in the process. Home runs were not a major part of the game before -- the parks were not conducive to the long-ball game, so you had batters from that early-1900's era like Cobb, Wagner, and Speaker who were more strategic in their approach of exploiting spaces in the defense. Ruth just went up and consistently hit the ball further than anyone had done before, thereby removing the defense from the game completely. He was literally a "game-changer". You can throw out names like Aaron, Mantle, Williams, etc. but they're all following in Ruth's steps. I'm not a huge Ruth fan myself, Gehrig's my guy from the Golden Era, but I'd be curious to hear any other examples of players who revolutionized baseball itself with their approach, especially given how home-run-obsessed the sport has been since (they've been doing home run contests at least since the 60's).

[Jordysnordy]

I love how we have SA books, hockey and baseball all meshed into one thread.

[Patriot6]

7 hours ago, kimik said:

It was not even close.

I think this statement is false. If you look at the era Richard played in, and his numbers compared to those who played during the same time, he was king. His 50 in 50 during this time is incredible. Not to mention the league was working against him. What really tops it for me is that he was a pure goal scorer, yes, but if someone did something he didn't like he delt with it himself. Comparing the high flying 80s to the Rocket's era is not possible. Goaltending was a joke in the 80s/early 90s. I would even say that the 80s was the worst decade for NHL hockey EVER.

[piper]

8 hours ago, Patriot6 said:

I think this statement is false. If you look at the era Richard played in, and his numbers compared to those who played during the same time, he was king. His 50 in 50 during this time is incredible. Not to mention the league was working against him. What really tops it for me is that he was a pure goal scorer, yes, but if someone did something he didn't like he delt with it himself. Comparing the high flying 80s to the Rocket's era is not possible. Goaltending was a joke in the 80s/early 90s. I would even say that the 80s was the worst decade for NHL hockey EVER.

With all the changes to rules, goalie playing styles (butterfly), equipment changes (e.g curved sticks), I'm not sure how anyone can compare eras.

I wish that I would have got to see Orr play. 

[piper]

9 hours ago, Jordysnordy said:

I love how we have SA books, hockey and baseball all meshed into one thread.

Three of my favourite things!

[bronze johnny]

12 hours ago, Martin Sinescu said:

And, again, Ruth transitioned from being a great pitcher to not only become a great batter, but to completely revolutionize the sport's approach to offense in the process. Home runs were not a major part of the game before -- the parks were not conducive to the long-ball game, so you had batters from that early-1900's era like Cobb, Wagner, and Speaker who were more strategic in their approach of exploiting spaces in the defense. Ruth just went up and consistently hit the ball further than anyone had done before, thereby removing the defense from the game completely. He was literally a "game-changer". You can throw out names like Aaron, Mantle, Williams, etc. but they're all following in Ruth's steps. I'm not a huge Ruth fan myself, Gehrig's my guy from the Golden Era, but I'd be curious to hear any other examples of players who revolutionized baseball itself with their approach, especially given how home-run-obsessed the sport has been since (they've been doing home run contests at least since the 60's).

Gehrig 

Bob Gibson was a game changer- MLB's lowering the pitching mound.

[etowah1123]

Bob Gibson was a baaad man

[etowah1123]

So who is your all time starting lineup in baseball 

[zhamlau]

On 3/10/2017 at 5:51 PM, kimik said:

Gordie Howe was not the best overall player. As I have seen old time writers have put it, hockey in the 50s is equivalent to Midget AAA (or a bit lower) today. It was much slower and less skilled than it was in the 70s, let alone 80s onward. Howe's greatest characteristic was his longevity. If you are looking at that type of player as the best overall, then I would argue that Messier was well ahead of Howe. Higher level of skill, faster, and just as brutally physical (or dirty) when he needed to be.

I would put the list as Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux as top 3 in that order right now. Sure, the 80s had a ton of offense (thanks to the big jump in skilled play due to the European influence of the late 70s), but Gretzky was still a cut above anyone else due to his skill, vision and anticipation/hockey sense. His shot was sneaky and accurate as well. He scored 92 the one season, but he basically realized that he was more valuable setting up his teammates to score than potting the goals himself so he focused on that the rest of the way. He also did this with teams employing a shadow player (or two in some cases) that could clutch, grab, impede him all game (or until someone took care of them lol). As great as Lemieux was, he did not top 200 points. Gretzky did it 

Going forward, Connor McDavid has a shot at being the new best overall. He is a combination of Gretzky (vision, hands) and Orr (skating and agility), with decent size, good strength, and shutdown defender ability mixed in when he wants to. McDavid has the best stick I have seen defensively/offensively - watch the subtle little poke checks and stick lifts he does and when he does it. The way he positions players with his body is amazing to watch as well. McDavid needs to work on shooting in stride and if he masters that I can see him being a consistent 40+/year goal scorer. If the Oilers can provide him with a top end finisher I can also see him being able to top 150 points - he creates that many good to great scoring chances per game for his linemates. 

I think comparing the 1950's era of hockey to that of 16 year old CHL caliber players isn't overly fair. For one, the level of physical violence and checking in those games would destroy most 16 year old's today. Getting raked into chicken-wire elbows first by a guy wearing hard plastic elbow pads will pretty much end the desire to play of most 15-16 year olds. They grew up wearing full face shields and 20lb of protective gear. Put them into a game where most guys didn't even wear shoulder pads let alone helmets, you will see a different game occur. Put most 16 year old goaltenders into a game where they cant wear a mask and their pads are now only like 7 inches wide compared to 11 and they have no knee stacks (so you can feel cold impacting pain each time you drop down to block a shot low), they would be eaten alive. Also, the skaters didn't use Carbon Fiber sticks with that insane power creating flex which allows for that huge booming shots they have now. Modern sticks allow for not only much more powerful shots but also much more accurate passing.

Also, the 1950's NHL had 6 teams to choose from and like what 12-15 minor league teams of note? The level of competition to even make the Minors was fierce, and to be one the 130 NHL roster players that existed at any given point was insanely hard. Nothing was watered down like it is today and the nearly 700 roster players going in night in and out in the league. Everyone who made the feeder minors and the big club was elite, they had to be competition was fierce and jobs were scarce. If you saw NHL action in the 1950s, you were elite.

I don't think its fair to compare era's when you look at gear changes, rule changes, and officiating changes. Modern 15-16 year old's playing the 1950's game wouldn't eat alive the top 120 players in the world in 1952, at least in my opinion.

[ComicConnoisseur]

10 hours ago, etowah1123 said:

So who is your all time starting lineup in baseball 

C.   Johnny Bench

1b.   Lou Gehrig 

2b.  Joe Morgan

SS. Derek Jeter

3b.  Pete Rose

Lf   Ted Williams

Cf Mickey Mantle

Rf Babe Ruth

DH David Ortiz

SP Pedro Martinez

RP Mariano Rivera

We have to have a balance of modern age and golden age players. Can't be all baseball players that played from 1920s to 1950s.

[ComicConnoisseur]

15 hours ago, piper said:

Three of my favourite things!

Now if we can somehow add rock n roll into the mix! 

[ComicConnoisseur]

On 3/10/2017 at 5:51 PM, kimik said:

Gordie Howe was not the best overall player. As I have seen old time writers have put it, hockey in the 50s is equivalent to Midget AAA (or a bit lower) today. It was much slower and less skilled than it was in the 70s, let alone 80s onward. Howe's greatest characteristic was his longevity. If you are looking at that type of player as the best overall, then I would argue that Messier was well ahead of Howe. Higher level of skill, faster, and just as brutally physical (or dirty) when he needed to be.

I would put the list as Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux as top 3 in that order right now. Sure, the 80s had a ton of offense (thanks to the big jump in skilled play due to the European influence of the late 70s), but Gretzky was still a cut above anyone else due to his skill, vision and anticipation/hockey sense. His shot was sneaky and accurate as well. He scored 92 the one season, but he basically realized that he was more valuable setting up his teammates to score than potting the goals himself so he focused on that the rest of the way. He also did this with teams employing a shadow player (or two in some cases) that could clutch, grab, impede him all game (or until someone took care of them lol). As great as Lemieux was, he did not top 200 points. Gretzky did it 

Going forward, Connor McDavid has a shot at being the new best overall. He is a combination of Gretzky (vision, hands) and Orr (skating and agility), with decent size, good strength, and shutdown defender ability mixed in when he wants to. McDavid has the best stick I have seen defensively/offensively - watch the subtle little poke checks and stick lifts he does and when he does it. The way he positions players with his body is amazing to watch as well. McDavid needs to work on shooting in stride and if he masters that I can see him being a consistent 40+/year goal scorer. If the Oilers can provide him with a top end finisher I can also see him being able to top 150 points - he creates that many good to great scoring chances per game for his linemates. 

I don't know if most of the comic book guys know this,but if you are going to speculate in rookie hockey cards than Connor McDavid is the man. His rookie cards have exploded in value. Think of Walking Dead `#1. This guy is right now considered to be a once in a generation hockey player. Hopefully he stays injury free.

[bronze johnny]

10 hours ago, etowah1123 said:

So who is your all time starting lineup in baseball 

My Line-up has 5 Righties and 3 Lefties:

1) Napoleon Lajoie (Second Base) Bats Right - one of two slapstick players on my list that are at both ends of the line-up. My team is unbeatable if he hits .426.

2) Joe DiMaggio (Outfield - Center) Bats Right- 361 HRs to 369 SOs!  56 Game Hitting Streak. Only played 13 seasons. It always came easy to him in Center. Better than Mays and Mantle. Mickey being a switch hitter made this extremely tough but his playing a career with a severely bad knee sadly, prevented the Mick from probably being the greatest after Ruth if they also let him pitch a few seasons.

3) Babe Ruth (Outfield - Left) Bats Left- The Babe shifted around the outfield so he's playing in left for my line-up. Might even have him pitch relief...

4) Lou Gehrig (First Base) Bats Left- The real "Iron Man" used R(epulsor) BIs to win games...

5) Hank Aaron (Right Field) Bats Right- Incredible all-around player who could do it all and was the guy to play in right. I'm envious of the Milwaukee fans who got to see him play regularly- a factor that kept Hank off the radar until he made the move to surpass Ruth.

6) George Brett (Third Base) Bats Left- The better all around player at third that puts him above Schmidt. Pine Tar Game!!!

7) Johnny Bench (Catcher) Bats Right - Bench was the best all around catcher ever without Yogi's wisdom. (Tough with Munson and Fisk right there too).

8) Honus Wagner, (Shortstop) Bats Right- My other slapstick player who could steal bases when Gibson or Carlton are at bat. We all want his baseball card- the Action Comics 1 of sports card collecting.

9) Bob Gibson (R) Scary P(itching)C(lobbers)H(itters) who pitched from an Asgardian Pitcher's Mound until Commissioner Odin brought him closer to earth, Steve Carlton (L) - If there's a superhero called Lefty, then his secret identity must be Steve Carlton- imagine how much more successful he would have been if he pitched for decent teams before winning with the Phillies in 1980?

Edited March 12, 2017 by bronze johnny

[ComicConnoisseur]

13 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

My Line-up has 5 Righties and 3 Lefties:

1) Napoleon Lajoie (Second Base) Bats Right - one of two slapstick players on my list that are at both ends of the line-up. My team is unbeatable if he hits .426.

2) Joe DiMaggio (Outfield - Center) Bats Right- 361 HRs to 369 SOs!  56 Game Hitting Streak. Only played 13 seasons. It always came easy to him in Center. Better than Mays and Mantle. Mickey being a switch hitter made this extremely tough but his playing a career with a severely bad knee sadly, prevented the Mick from probably being the greatest after Ruth if they also let him pitch a few seasons.

3) Babe Ruth (Outfield - Left) Bats Left- The Babe shifted around the outfield so he's playing in left for my line-up. Might even have him pitch relief...

4) Lou Gehrig (First Base) Bats Left- The real "Iron Man" used R(epulsor) BIs to win games...

5) Hank Aaron (Right Field) Bats Right- Incredible all-around player who could do it all and was the guy to play in right. I'm envious of the Milwaukee fans who got to see him play regularly- a factor that kept Hank off the radar until he made the move to surpass Ruth.

6) George Brett (Third Base) Bats Left- The better all around player at third that puts him above Schmidt. Pine Tar Game!!!

7) Johnny Bench (Catcher) Bats Right - Bench was the best all around catcher ever without Yogi's wisdom. (Tough with Munson and Fisk right there too).

8) Honus Wagner, (Shortstop) Bats Right- My other slapstick player who could steal bases when Gibson or Carlton are at bat. We all want his baseball card- the Action Comics 1 of sports card collecting.

9) Bob Gibson (R) Scary P(itching)C(lobbers)H(itters) who pitched from an Asgardian Pitcher's Mound until Commissioner Odin brought him closer to earth, Steve Carlton (L) - If there's a superhero called Lefty, then his secret identity must be Steve Carlton- imagine how much more successful he would have been if he pitched for decent teams before winning with the Phillies in 1980?

Good picks.

With your Joe D over Mantle you could be on to something because I have very old-time Yankee fan relatives that saw both Joe D. and the Mick play, and they swear Joe D was better all-around player! 

I don't know because both played before my time. 

[bronze johnny]

14 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Good picks.

With your Joe D over Mantle you could be on to something because I have very old-time Yankee fan relatives that saw both Joe D. and the Mick play, and they swear Joe D was better all-around player! 

I don't know because both played before my time. 

I never saw either play but my relatives who were Brooklyn Dodger fans saw both play and told me that DiMaggio was the better player. They also told me that DiMaggio was better than Mays. I want to emphasize that all three players are baseball immortals. Also want to be fair to Mantle- reading the incredible biography, The Lost Son, enlightened me about how Mantle played with a severe knee injury for almost his entire career. What Mantle did was incredible- like Tony Stark fighting villains while his suit ran low on power. We never really did get to see Mantle on full power- a loss for baseball and fans who love the game.

Edited March 12, 2017 by bronze johnny

[ComicConnoisseur]

10 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

I never saw either play but my relatives who were Brooklyn Dodger fans saw both play and told me that DiMaggio was the better player. They also told me that DiMaggio was better than Mays. I want to emphasize that all three players are baseball immortals. Also want to be fair to Mantle- reading the incredible biography, The Lost Son, enlightened me about how Mantle played with a severe knee injury for almost his entire career. What Mantle did was incredible- like Tony Stark fighting villains while his suit ran low on power. We never really did get to see Mantle on full power- a loss for baseball and fans who love the game.

Sad what happened to Mantle. I will have to check out that book The Lost Son.