Bronze Age Pedigree?

[whetteon]

Reading the CGC Pedigree post on the General Forum made me wonder if there are any Bronze Age books that have had the distinction of being a Pedigree and would anyone really care (aka, pay more for the book)? I personally avoid Pedigree books because I don’t understand why one would pay 25% more for a book in the same grade just because it use to belong to some collection, but then again I probably have weird collecting habits to others as well. Different strokes for different folks. However, I would suspect there’d be a lot more Bronze Age “pedigrees” then Silver and Golden age because by this time a lot more collectors were actively buying newsstand copies and storing them safely for later. Is there anyone knowledgeable in this field?

[rob_react]

However, I would suspect there’d be a lot more Bronze Age “pedigrees” then Silver and Golden age because by this time a lot more collectors were actively buying newsstand copies and storing them safely for later.

 

That's actually why there AREN'T any bronze age specific pedigrees. There's nothing special about someone saving comics in the 70s, so the acceptance of the collection's uniqueness needed to gain real market pedigree status isn't going to happen. Certainly there are great OO collections of 70s books, there's just nothing novel or noteworthy enough about them once they surface like there is with a collection of books from the 30s, 40s, 50s or early 60s.

[rob_react]

To answer the other part of your question, there are Bronze Age books that have pedigree status because they're part of larger collections that have their roots in the Silver Age. Western Penn and Pacific Coast both have Bronze Age examples.

[aardvark88]

See Chuck & his Mile High 2 "pedigree". U can have a collection (not pedigree) named after u by submitting 1,000 BA books to CGC.

[heydude-migration]

To me there is no difference in a book previously owned by 1, 2, or 46 people. Take a Cadillac owned by Elvis and park it next to my Aunt Sadie's identical Cadillac and technically there shouldn't be any difference in value if both of them were parked in similar garages and each have the same mileage. Our culture assigns to much added value on what superstar owned something. A while back people were buying napkin holders from the Kennedy household after Jackie passed away. If you dropped that napkin holder in a box of similar looking ones at a garage sale, well good luck finding the super special one. Now golden age is probably a different story, and I'm not so opinionated as that era benefits from warehouse discoveries. Sorry to rant.

[rob_react]

To me there is no difference in a book previously owned by 1, 2, or 46 people. Take a Cadillac owned by Elvis and park it next to my Aunt Sadie's identical Cadillac and technically there shouldn't be any difference in value if both of them were parked in similar garages and each have the same mileage. Our culture assigns to much added value on what superstar owned something. A while back people were buying napkin holders from the Kennedy household after Jackie passed away. If you dropped that napkin holder in a box of similar looking ones at a garage sale, well good luck finding the super special one. Now golden age is probably a different story, and I'm not so opinionated as that era benefits from warehouse discoveries. Sorry to rant.

 

We're not talking about books owned by superstars...

[heydude-migration]

My apologies, Rob.

I was ranting. A book that is labeled Pedigreed indirectly makes it a SUPERSTAR. Which I am against, especially in Bronze-Copper- or Modern.

 

That was the meaning I was trying to convey. The Mile High is not a person superstar per se, but a superstar on the level as a famous person, i.e. a superstar supposedly among other ordinary yet identical comics. I think the basics of my earlier post can be understood even if my semantics are not perfectly aligned with the correct verbage.

[THE_BEYONDER]

WELCOME TO THE BOARDS....DUDE.

[tth2]

To answer the other part of your question, there are Bronze Age books that have pedigree status because they're part of larger collections that have their roots in the Silver Age. Western Penn and Pacific Coast both have Bronze Age examples.

Northland and Winnipeg are other pedigrees that extend from the SA into BA. I've got my opinions of the Winnipeg SA books, but the BA issues are clearly stellar. Oakland is a pedigree that runs from late SA to BA. I assume there must be BA Boston books, since the SA starts from the mid-60s, but off the top of my head I can't recall seeing BA Bostons (not that I'm really looking).

[PovertyRow]

To me there is no difference in a book previously owned by 1, 2, or 46 people. Take a Cadillac owned by Elvis and park it next to my Aunt Sadie's identical Cadillac and technically there shouldn't be any difference in value if both of them were parked in similar garages and each have the same mileage. Our culture assigns to much added value on what superstar owned something. A while back people were buying napkin holders from the Kennedy household after Jackie passed away. If you dropped that napkin holder in a box of similar looking ones at a garage sale, well good luck finding the super special one. Now golden age is probably a different story, and I'm not so opinionated as that era benefits from warehouse discoveries. Sorry to rant.

 

Well you aren't ranting - just expressing your opinion. Your opinion simply means, if I read it correctly, you impart no extra value based on a comic book's history. Which is a very valid opinion.

 

To take your Elvis Caddy analogy into the comic book realm, I bet to many comic book collector's, the writing or drawing instruments used by Siegel and Shuster or an airbrush used by Schomburg for many of is Xela covers would have some value, and certainly more than just the same instruments of their time.

 

Indeed, we, as comic book collectors, place the same kind of values on certain comic books over other comic books. The thing with a pedigree - indeed the thing that MAKES a pedigree is, first and foremost, provenance. Provenance has two distinct definitions:

 

Place of origin; derivation.

Proof of authenticity or of past ownership. Used of art works and antiques.

 

The GA collector values an Action 1 or Detective 27 more than an Action 2 or a Detective 28. Similar can be drawn across the genres. An Iron Fist 11 vs an Iron Fist 15 or an Uncanny X-Men 139 vs Uncanny X-Men 94. Why? Because these books have provenance, just as pedigree books do. But their provenance is inherent in the characters. Such fits the first definition: "place of origin". Action #1 - 1st Superman. Detective 27 - 1st Batman. (yeah! I know you know that but just making a point.)

 

But provenance also exists in the trackig of pedigreed collections. These books fit into the second definition: "Proof of authenticity or of past ownership."

 

Now it is up to the individual collector to decide the importance of such matters. You have decided that provenance has no added value. Again, it is a valid perception.

 

But it is also a valid perception for other collectors TO place importance on the second definition. The thing is that the second definition IS a very important aspect to many collectors, be they comic book or fountain pen or automobile collectors. Why? Because such things appeal to those collector who also have a strong feel for history and the history of a particular object.

 

It is an interesting conundrum. Both sides are correct.

[mica]

Hi Pov, I agree with you both sides are right. But I understand the analogy of the identical car. I also understand the appeal of a hot blonde behind one steering wheel compared to Janet Reno behind the other. For those that like the PEDIGREE ownership part, they think the owner has better eye appeal, while the comic reading PURIST only looks at the identical car and is flabbergasted at someone raving about the owner.

I think there is a concern that some people will become TOO elitist in the pursuit of Pedigree. I tend to side with the PURIST (boy I hope that label doesn't necessarily stick as I hate labels) and thoroughly enjoy my reader copies.

 

When I returned to comic collecting after I got fed up in 1991, all of a sudden I had to learn all of this new terminology like CGC, slabbed, 9.8 verses 9.6, etc.. not to mention I had to keep track of Pedigrees as well. It can be overwhelming.

To me my comics are Mica Pedigree. Well, that's all I wanted to post, that and I got to say flabbergasted.

[PovertyRow]

For those that like the PEDIGREE ownership part, they think the owner has better eye appeal, while the comic reading PURIST only looks at the identical car and is flabbergasted at someone raving about the owner.

 

Hey Mica! I thank you for your reply but you got a bit of it wrong. For those that like the PEDIGREE ownership part, they think the owner has better eye appeal is not at all what I was getting at. I was getting at the perceived (and I stress perceived added value of a collection from an age that was compiled off the news stand when the books were released and, thanks to serendipity, circumstance or whatever, remained in at least rather nice condition while containing keys and a decent quantity (inhale...exhale...) versus a nice book in the same condition that has no history behind it. It really has nothing to do with the original collector having a better eye but everything to do with a collector who obtained all their books first-hand and kept them in nice condition...and of paramount importance being able to identify the individuality of such a collection.

 

Nowadays such a criteria would not work.Comics are a perceived collecible and also a perceived commodity and have been for many years. S someone who amasses a huge 80's through today collection? Well, it is basically a copper/modern collector. I confess to still thinking about BA pedigrees. I think time will have to tell for that. From my own experience, I had literally hundreds of amazing condition BA books that dealers had zero interest in during the late 80's and early 90's. I have to onwder how many collectors were in the same boat I was, trying to dump bronze books with no interest. Then again, I also have to wonder if the dealers were sitting on lots of HG bronze books, so had no interest in increasing their supply.

 

And then again (again), I also have to wonder (in a general way as oppsoed to a Pedigree way) that, in 2005, how many BA books continue to survive even in those amassed collections, in similar condition to their news stand condition. We are talking about books 35 years old to about 25 years old. Have even these large collections been dented in just shufffling about inventory? Have the pages turned cream or worse? Were mainly the "important" titles ammassed? What about the (OK - this is my proclivity coming out but) what about BA horror vs BA Superhero? Were a lot of dealers amassing BA Horror in anticipation of the increases we are now seeing? Were they amassing DC superhero or mainly Marvel?

 

It really is a fascinating thing. The answers will, unless the market really DOES crash, be answered in the future. But for now, the BA and later SA of the more obscure genres/titles - well - maybe even BA Pedigrees have a place!

 

I do thank you for a post that really made me think!

[mica]

Are you saying I made you think???

I still say my "Mica Pedigree" Devil Dinosaurs are one day going to be famously talked about on these boards 20 years from now. Of course I have to go around America, Canada, England and whereever else they are (I suppose Australia) and damage everyone elses run first.

[PovertyRow]

Are you saying I made you think???

 

Yes, reluctanctly I admit the inconceivable has happened. You made me think!

 

back at ya!

[bullseye]

I would like to think more pedigrees show up, not necessarily for their value, but for making more books available. I would like to think that some day after i am long dead, people look over the log i take of my comic purchases and can picture the story that each purchase brings. It need not be a pedigree, but it was important enough for me, and that is fine. as for the thing of buying a book because it was owned by some person, it does not hold a great deal of power for me to pay multiples of guide because it was owned by some random dude, but it would be neat as a conversation piece when someone asks where you got that reprint, and you tell them it is real and from the 40's and get into a story about a hippy some mean descendants, and an old man with a lot of foresight. Just makes me realize I wish I knew more about every piece i have bought.

[AussieRuss]

I've got my opinions of the Winnipeg SA books, but the BA issues are clearly stellar. Oakland is a pedigree that runs from late SA to BA. I assume there must be BA Boston books, since the SA starts from the mid-60s, but off the top of my head I can't recall seeing BA Bostons (not that I'm really looking).

 

Hello tth2

One Particular Bronze age Boston Pedigree Copy that comes to mind is from D.C. It is Mister Miracle from March-1971

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/attachments//810448-MrMiracle19.6Boston.jpg

 

[AussieRuss]

I find it really interesting to note the number of people that seem to apparently find little if anything in owning a BA Pedigree comic.

 

I am going to go out on a limb here but its the only way to express my view (rightly or wrongly)

 

Have we not learned that these things take time to evolve into highly collectable pieces?

 

When you have some spare time on your side have a listen to Chuck R speaking on "Comic Zone" about trying to sell the Mile high Pedigree comics in the early days. He talks about going to shows and selling very few of his copies in the begining.

 

It is my opinion that what we are seeing now is to a certain degree what Chuck was seeing then. I know that Pedigrees are better known about nowdays but the priciples stay the same.

 

I truely believe that given time a Pedigree version of any BA comic will increase both in desirability & value at a higher rate than its non Pedigree equivalent.

 

As a now very elderly WWII vet once said to me in relation to the world wars past.

 

"To forget is to repeat"

 

In other words, don't forget about previous Silver & Golden age Pedigree's & how they have grown in desirability & price. One day you may find that history has passed you by and things again have repeated.

 

One other aspect which seems to raise it head again & again is that of price. I keep hearing about paying multiples of price for BA comics. I disagree that this is always the case and would state that things goe both ways. I have paid multiples of guide for some BA non Pedigree books but other times picked up a BA Pedigree book for only a fraction of guide.

 

Anyhow.

Thanks everyone for both points of view. Your opinions are appreciated.

 

Regards,

Aussie Russ...

[drbanner]

The percentage of high grade BA books that belong to Pedigree collections is very, very small compared to the percenatage of high grade BA books that don't belong to Pedigrees (how many of the 1,000+ HG copies of Hulk 181 are Pedigrees?). Conversely, a much higher percentage of HG GA books belong to Pedigrees so if you collect HG GA, you collect Pedigrees.

 

Also, you're not going to see many more BA collections classified as Pedigrees in the future, whereas the HG BA census will continue to grow...fueled by non-Pedigree books.

[sfilosa]

To me there is no difference in a book previously owned by 1, 2, or 46 people. Take a Cadillac owned by Elvis and park it next to my Aunt Sadie's identical Cadillac and technically there shouldn't be any difference in value if both of them were parked in similar garages and each have the same mileage. Our culture assigns to much added value on what superstar owned something. A while back people were buying napkin holders from the Kennedy household after Jackie passed away. If you dropped that napkin holder in a box of similar looking ones at a garage sale, well good luck finding the super special one. Now golden age is probably a different story, and I'm not so opinionated as that era benefits from warehouse discoveries. Sorry to rant.

 

While your argument makes sense from a purely logical standpoint, I could then say:

 

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ORIGINAL AND A FORGERY.

 

Assuming both piece of art look the same, who should care who did the work.

 

And obviously, why would anyone pay a dime more to own an original comic book if they can get a reprint.

 

Unless you own a bunch of pedigree books, and then decide that they have ZERO additional value to you (even though they are pedigrees), it's impossible for you to to even make a valid argument.

[DKB]

Ohios run from the early 40s to the early 70s, I have a dozen or so raw Bronze that I certainly didn't pay a premium on. Just nice books I got cause I dig nice books, the provenance was just a bonus. =)

 

And Diamond Run might actually make it into the 80s. I passed on a Diamond Run ASM 188 cause it wasn't much more than a 8.5/9.0.