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2,373 posts in this topic

sacentaur

sacentaur

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20 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

She may not see it his way, but I don't see how he "failed her again."  He released Jaime to try to get Cersei to leave peacefully to save all the people in the city and it simply didn't work.  He didn't put Daenerys at any kind of further disadvantage that would constitute failure.

I think you are being far too kind here.

Dany plainly stated that Jamie was caught trying to slip through the lines. There was no discussion what to do with him, he was her prisoner.

She also chastised Tyrion for not consulting her before he told Varys that Jon is Targaryen. Afterwards, Tyrion again failed to consult with her before releasing Jamie. That is a failure and a betrayal. Jamie even admonished Tyrion that Dany would execute him for the deed.

I’m guessing that Tyrion will end up being the wedge that finally creates the break between Jon and Dany.

 

 

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jaybuck43

jaybuck43

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26 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

She may not see it his way, but I don't see how he "failed her again."  He released Jaime to try to get Cersei to leave peacefully to save all the people in the city and it simply didn't work.  He didn't put Daenerys at any kind of further disadvantage that would constitute failure.

One thing I didn't get was who rang the bells and why.  At first I thought it was Jaime in an attempt to delay the invasion to he could save Cersei, but then we saw him elsewhere.  Tyrion said that if the people saw imminent defeat they'd ring the bells to evacuate the city--so was it those Golden Company dudes who put down their swords who rang the bell?  Weren't they hired hands?  I couldn't tell who did it or exactly why.

Wait really?  Dany just laid waste to the Golden Company, to the front gate of Kings Landing, and her army stands ready to destroy the town.  The towns people see the writing on the wall, they know the city is about to be destroyed.  Back in Season 2 Varys and Tyrion have a conversation about the bells.  Varys says "I always hated the bells, they only ring for horror, a dead king, a city at siege".  The townspeople know this.  Why do you think Tyrion chose the ringing of the bells as a signal to Dany?  Because he knows that the Lanister Army is defending the Red Keep and that the Gold Company are at the gates.  When the towns people know the war is lost, and they've turned on Cersei, they will ring the bells to signify that the horror has come.  At that point, Dany should be merciful.  You can even hear (or at least I could on my surround sound system, then again I also didn't have any issue watching Episode 3) the townsfolk yelling out "Ring the Bells" "Ring the Bells" over and over again until finally someone rings them.

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Black_Adam

Black_Adam

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I may have been just imagining things (going to watch the episode again tonight) but I swear when they scanned past the Northern army waiting to assault the city that one of the warriors was Mark Addy (aka King Robert Baratheon).

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a858766/game-of-thrones-mark-addy-king-robert-baratheon-season-8-wrap-party/

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Doc McCoy

Doc McCoy

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How 'Game of Thrones' Episode 5 Could've Gotten It Right, and the Only Way It Can Go From Here

Quote

On paper, it looks great to say Daenerys will become fueled by jealousy, just like her older brother Viserys became in season one when he saw the Dothraki idolizing his sister instead of himself. It looks great to say she’ll descend to “The Mad Queen” status much like her father. It looks great on paper to say Cersei and Jaime will die in the cells of the Red Keep, with the castle they fought and schemed for literally and metaphorically collapsing atop them. And it looks great on paper to say that, in the end, the real war won’t be between the living and the dead or between Daenerys and Cersei, but instead will be between aunt and nephew.

The problem is, each of these transformations of character weren’t given the time they deserve to occur naturally. We the viewers have spent almost 10 years with these characters, watching their slow and methodical development and transformations from what they were in season one to what they became at the end of season seven. 

Every change we saw in Jon and Dany and Jaime and Arya was motivated. It all made sense. They saw things, reacted to things and changed in a natural, human way. That was the beauty of this show: It married a fictional and magical world with true humanity that we all could relate to. But with 13 episodes left to tell one third of George R.R. Martin’s epic tale, it genuinely feels like the show lost touch with that humanity.

Time became the antagonist. Where the characters have ended up with one final episode left is fine. It’s believable on paper. However, in execution, it’s hard to believe that Daenerys would transform from liberator and hero to malicious murderer over the course of two episodes. It’s hard to believe that Jaime would be fueled to do what’s right in episode three of the final season, abandoning his evil sister to defend the living, and then go running back to her in episode four. It’s hard to believe that Varys, the most meticulous and schematic character on the show, would hear a rumor and then basically tell everyone that he was willing to commit treason. And it’s hard to believe that Cersei and Qyburn, who have been merciless from the start, wouldn’t have a plan in place to blow up the city with wildfire once the gates fell and all of the Northern army was in close proximity.

 

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Kon_Jelly

Kon_Jelly

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14 minutes ago, jaybuck43 said:

Wait really?  Dany just laid waste to the Golden Company, to the front gate of Kings Landing, and her army stands ready to destroy the town.  The towns people see the writing on the wall, they know the city is about to be destroyed.  Back in Season 2 Varys and Tyrion have a conversation about the bells.  Varys says "I always hated the bells, they only ring for horror, a dead king, a city at siege".  The townspeople know this.  Why do you think Tyrion chose the ringing of the bells as a signal to Dany?  Because he knows that the Lanister Army is defending the Red Keep and that the Gold Company are at the gates.  When the towns people know the war is lost, and they've turned on Cersei, they will ring the bells to signify that the horror has come.  At that point, Dany should be merciful.  You can even hear (or at least I could on my surround sound system, then again I also didn't have any issue watching Episode 3) the townsfolk yelling out "Ring the Bells" "Ring the Bells" over and over again until finally someone rings them.

I think the question was more like "who was responsible for ringing the bells?" If that is the "surrender" signal, typically that would have to come from someone in charge. I doubt they would let just anyone run up and ring them.  There was a tense moment waiting to see if they would ring, but the tension was lost when there was no indication as to *who* was going to ring them. 

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jaybuck43

jaybuck43

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16 minutes ago, Doc McCoy said:

How 'Game of Thrones' Episode 5 Could've Gotten It Right, and the Only Way It Can Go From Here

 

Regarding the wildfire.  They may have intended to use it once the armies entered the city.  Go back and rewatch Dany laying waste to the city, there are a ton of green flames as she's decimating the city.  Those are stores of wildfire.  It's possible that those were set as traps which didn't matter once Dragonfire was used to melt the city to the ground.  

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comix4fun

comix4fun

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18 minutes ago, jaybuck43 said:

Regarding the wildfire.  They may have intended to use it once the armies entered the city.  Go back and rewatch Dany laying waste to the city, there are a ton of green flames as she's decimating the city.  Those are stores of wildfire.  It's possible that those were set as traps which didn't matter once Dragonfire was used to melt the city to the ground.  

I noticed that to.....wildfire explosions all over the city. 

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jaybuck43

jaybuck43

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47 minutes ago, Black_Adam said:

I may have been just imagining things (going to watch the episode again tonight) but I swear when they scanned past the Northern army waiting to assault the city that one of the warriors was Mark Addy (aka King Robert Baratheon).

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a858766/game-of-thrones-mark-addy-king-robert-baratheon-season-8-wrap-party/

Naw it was probably just Aaron Rodgers... Again.

a7lwbdbf5ch1loc9iaxo.jpg

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Bosco685

Bosco685

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1 hour ago, jaybuck43 said:

No, it's not about keeping it accurate.  It's about context.  The Red Keep, and even Aegonfort are meaningless to the Targaryens.  It's a house.  It's not their ancestral home (which is Valyria) or their family seat (Dragonstone) it's a castle that they built.  That would be like the Bran Stark losing his mind after the Night's King took Castle Black, because Bran the Builder built it 8,000 years ago.  It's just bad writing.  

I see it differently, and from Dany's POV.

She has had no home for most of her life. But heard many stories (real or otherwise) about the honor of being a Targaryen, how they were betrayed, and the contributions her family made to Westeros history. To her, these things are all she had to go on. So finally seeing the Red Keep reminded her of all those stories and experiences.

Based on that situation, I can see how it set her off.

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bane

bane

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6 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I see it differently, and from Dany's POV.

She has had no home for most of her life. But heard many stories (real or otherwise) about the honor of being a Targaryen, how they were betrayed, and the contributions her family made to Westeros history. To her, these things are all she had to go on. So finally seeing the Red Keep reminded her of all those stories and experiences.

Based on that situation, I can see how it set her off.

I’m with Jaybuck in this one, it’s too much of a stretch.

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Bosco685

Bosco685

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6 minutes ago, bane said:

The way Jaybuck already explained it :baiting:

There's some confusion, though. As it was noted earlier the Targaryens didn't build the Red Keep. But it turns out they did. Plus the smaller structure before this.

5 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

 

A WIKI OF ICE AND FIRE: Red Keep

Franz_Miklis_red_keep.jpg

Quote

At the start of Aegon's Conquest, Aegon the Conqueror landed at the mouth of the Blackwater Rush. On the highest of the three hills of the area, Aegon's Hill, he built his first fort of earth and wood, the Aegonfort. The new city of King's Landing, the capital of the Seven Kingdoms, developed around the fort. In 35 AC King Aegon I tore down the wooden Aegonfort so a more fitting stone castle could be raised for House Targaryen, tasking his sister, Queen Visenya Targaryen, and the Hand of the King, Lord Alyn Stokeworth, with overseeing its construction.

 

When Aegon died at Dragonstone in 37 AC, he was succeeded by his son, Aenys I Targaryen, who was crowned at Dragonstone according to Gyldayn or in the foundations of the new castle in King's Landing according to Yandel. Aenys was obsessed with the new castle, which the people of King's Landing named the Red Keep because of its stone, but the king passed away at Dragonstone during the Faith Militant uprising in 42 AC. Aenys was succeeded by his brother, Maegor I. The Red Keep and the Sept of Remembrance were seized by Warrior's Sons and Poor Fellows, but Maegor eventually used Balerion to destroy the Faith Militant at the sept and solidify his rule.

 

Maegor took personal charge of the Red Keep's construction in 43 AC. He went beyond the plans of Aegon and Aenys by adding a moated redoubt, later known as Maegor's Holdfast, within the walls of the Red Keep. He also commanded that secret passages, false walls, and trapdoors be introduced to the castle and tunnels through Aegon's High Hill. After Prince Viserys Targaryen was tortured to death by Tyanna of the Tower in 44 AC, King Maegor abandoned his nephew's body in the courtyard of the Red Keep.[37] Many members of House Harroway were thrown onto the spikes below Maegor's Holdfast when the king extinguished the family in 44 AC. When the castle was completed in 45 AC, Maegor threw a feast for its builders, carvers, and stonemasons. After three days of feasting, however, Maegor the Cruel had all of the craftsmen killed so that only he would know the Red Keep's secrets. With the Red Keep complete, Maegor then began construction of the Dragonpit. When Maegor the Cruel was found dead on the Iron Throne in 48 AC, one theory suggested that a mason familiar with the castle's secret passages had escaped Maegor's massacre and assassinated the king.

(shrug)

But maybe you are both right. :angel:

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Gaard

Gaard

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14 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

  After surviving, Tyrion kills her dragon.  How?  In tonight's episode, Tyrion asks Davos if he can get him something, since Davos used to be a smuggler.  This is before the fall of Kings Landing.  What could Tyrion want?  Something to possibly defeat a dragon, maybe?  hm 
 

The ultimate nullifier? (shrug)

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