GAME OF THRONES Rules Thread 7 7

[jaybuck43]

1 hour ago, Bosco685 said:

Really interesting point made by one of the show-runners on what finally pushed Dany over the edge to go so extreme (3:25).

"And she sees the Red Keep which is to her the home that her family built when they first came to this country three-hundred years ago. It's in that moment on the walls of King's Landing where she is looking at that symbol of all that was taken from her when she makes the decision to make this personal!"

Wow!

This perfectly encapsulates how STUPID the show runners are.  Her family did not build the Red Keep 300 hundred years ago when they first came to Westeros.  When Aegon conquered Westeros, he built Aegonfort.  King's landing developed around Aegonfort.  After that, Aegon tore down Aegonfort and began the construction of a new stone castle that would eventually become the Red Keep.  Aegon died, his son kept building, he died and his brother (Aegon's other son) finished the fort.  But here's the thing.  Dany has NEVER SET FOOT ON Westeros!.  She has no idea what the Red Keep looks like.  "Seeing it" will not set her off. Her desire, her driving motivation has been to hold the seat.  WHY ON EARTH WOULD SEEING IT MAKE HER WANT TO DESTROY IT????

[comix4fun]

Just now, jaybuck43 said:

She has no idea what the Red Keep looks like.  "Seeing it" will not set her off. Her desire, her driving motivation has been to hold the seat.  WHY ON EARTH WOULD SEEING IT MAKE HER WANT TO DESTROY IT????

Because their creative process...in a nutshell...seems a lot like....

 

 

Doesn't leave room for nuance, or logic, or natural progression of themes, emotions, and character evolution.

It also makes way for laughable plot devices, character decisions, and overall poor quality storytelling. 

[Bosco685]

Just now, jaybuck43 said:

This perfectly encapsulates how STUPID the show runners are.  Her family did not build the Red Keep 300 hundred years ago when they first came to Westeros.  When Aegon conquered Westeros, he built Aegonfort.  King's landing developed around Aegonfort.  After that, Aegon tore down Aegonfort and began the construction of a new stone castle that would eventually become the Red Keep.  Aegon died, his son kept building, he died and his brother (Aegon's other son) finished the fort.  But here's the thing.  Dany has NEVER SET FOOT ON Westeros!.  She has no idea what the Red Keep looks like.  "Seeing it" will not set her off. Her desire, her driving motivation has been to hold the seat.  WHY ON EARTH WOULD SEEING IT MAKE HER WANT TO DESTROY IT????

Not that I am taking sides. But are they kind of right?

Red Keep

Quote

"Aegon built his castle of red rock to remind people of the fire he roasted his enemies in, so whenever King's Landing looked up they'd see the price of defiance." ―Joffrey Baratheon

 

Maegor's Holdfast

Maegor's Holdfast is a stout tower in the center of the Red Keep. It was named after King Maegor Targaryen, who built the Red Keep. It serves as a redoubt when the city is attacked. The royal apartments are also located in Maegor's Holdfast. Maegor's Holdfast served as a refuge for Queen Cersei and the highborn ladies of the Red Keep during the Battle of the Blackwater. When Cersei declares herself Queen and the Lannisters engage in a war with Daenerys Targaryen and her allies, Cersei has the floor of a courtyard at the top of the Holdfast painted with a battle map of Westeros, replacing the previous plants and ivories there, essentially becoming a Lannister version of the Chamber of the Painted Table.

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

28 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

That's all accurate, except for the part where she's suddenly willing to slaughter every last man, woman and child in the city...people that did nothing to her, that she'd never seen or met, that gave her no provocation, basis, or reason for what they got. 

They skipped a whole bunch of steps to get her to where she's willing to kill everyone as opposed to every single indicator from her past actions which was fiery vengeance targeted to those that opposed her. 

It's slap-dash-race-to-the-finish character wrap up. 

What's been in the cards for three/four seasons just had her take a moral/ethical leap that's more than she's moved in the entirety of those three/four seasons. 

But there is, in so many cases, one event that pushes somebody over the edge, leads them into brutality and unthinking violence.

She was fighting against her genes for so very long...and slowly losing...and that one event was the loss of Missandei and the woman's final word.

[Bosco685]

A WIKI OF ICE AND FIRE: Red Keep

Quote

At the start of Aegon's Conquest, Aegon the Conqueror landed at the mouth of the Blackwater Rush. On the highest of the three hills of the area, Aegon's Hill, he built his first fort of earth and wood, the Aegonfort. The new city of King's Landing, the capital of the Seven Kingdoms, developed around the fort. In 35 AC King Aegon I tore down the wooden Aegonfort so a more fitting stone castle could be raised for House Targaryen, tasking his sister, Queen Visenya Targaryen, and the Hand of the King, Lord Alyn Stokeworth, with overseeing its construction.

 

When Aegon died at Dragonstone in 37 AC, he was succeeded by his son, Aenys I Targaryen, who was crowned at Dragonstone according to Gyldayn or in the foundations of the new castle in King's Landing according to Yandel. Aenys was obsessed with the new castle, which the people of King's Landing named the Red Keep because of its stone, but the king passed away at Dragonstone during the Faith Militant uprising in 42 AC. Aenys was succeeded by his brother, Maegor I. The Red Keep and the Sept of Remembrance were seized by Warrior's Sons and Poor Fellows, but Maegor eventually used Balerion to destroy the Faith Militant at the sept and solidify his rule.

 

Maegor took personal charge of the Red Keep's construction in 43 AC. He went beyond the plans of Aegon and Aenys by adding a moated redoubt, later known as Maegor's Holdfast, within the walls of the Red Keep. He also commanded that secret passages, false walls, and trapdoors be introduced to the castle and tunnels through Aegon's High Hill. After Prince Viserys Targaryen was tortured to death by Tyanna of the Tower in 44 AC, King Maegor abandoned his nephew's body in the courtyard of the Red Keep.[37] Many members of House Harroway were thrown onto the spikes below Maegor's Holdfast when the king extinguished the family in 44 AC. When the castle was completed in 45 AC, Maegor threw a feast for its builders, carvers, and stonemasons. After three days of feasting, however, Maegor the Cruel had all of the craftsmen killed so that only he would know the Red Keep's secrets. With the Red Keep complete, Maegor then began construction of the Dragonpit. When Maegor the Cruel was found dead on the Iron Throne in 48 AC, one theory suggested that a mason familiar with the castle's secret passages had escaped Maegor's massacre and assassinated the king.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Bosco685

[Catwomancomics]

3 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Because their creative process...in a nutshell...seems a lot like....

 

 

Doesn't leave room for nuance, or logic, or natural progression of themes, emotions, and character evolution.

It also makes way for laughable plot devices, character decisions, and overall poor quality storytelling. 

This is why season 7 and 8 should've been 10 episodes each.

[jaybuck43]

3 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Not that I am taking sides. But are they kind of right?

Red Keep

 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegonfort

 

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, jaybuck43 said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegonfort

 

Look above. The Red Keep sounds to have transitioned from the original structure there to the castle that came about.

Or am I looking at this wrong?

[jaybuck43]

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

Look above. The Red Keep sounds to have transitioned from the original structure there to the castle that came about.

Or am I looking at this wrong?

I'm aware of the history of the Red Keep.  Aegon at the end of his life ordered Aegonfort razed and (what would become) the red keep built in its place.  But that was after having landed on Kings landing, conquering the lords, swearing their fielty and building King's Landing.  

[Bosco685]

3 minutes ago, jaybuck43 said:

I'm aware of the history of the Red Keep.  Aegon at the end of his life ordered Aegonfort razed and (what would become) the red keep built in its place.  But that was after having landed on Kings landing, conquering the lords, swearing their fielty and building King's Landing.  

But you said the show-runners have no clue about the history. Yet this clearly shows it came from a Targaryen ruler conquering the area.

There wasn't a question about a previous structure being located here, right? Even your own link source notes this?

Quote

The Aegonfort was the first fort built by Aegon the Conqueror, constructed where King's Landing and the Red Keep now reside.

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Bosco685

[Doc McCoy]

 

[jaybuck43]

6 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

But you said the show-runners have no clue about the history. Yet this clearly shows it came from a Targaryen ruler conquering the area.

There wasn't a question about a previous structure being located here, right? Even your own link source notes this?

 

Here's your quote:

And she sees the Red Keep which is to her the home that her family built when they first came to this country three-hundred years ago.

 

My point is, IT'S NOT THE FAMILY HOME THEY FIRST BUILT.  First, they built Aegonfort.  Aegon lived there for 35 years, enough time for much of King's Landing to be built around it.  Then he moved to Dragonstone, lived there, had his kids born, they continued to live there, while the castle was constructed, etc.  The Red Keep is not some deep meaning place for the Targarians.  In fact, when the Targarians fled Valyria before the Doom, they settled on Dragonstone.  Dragonstone is where Aegon was born, it's where he planned his invasion and the conquering of Westeros.  THAT is the family seat.  There is no "OMG It's home, how dare she sit there" rage for the Red Keep.  Now, if Cersei did it in dragonstone, I could understand that rage a LITTLE more.  

[zhamlau]

1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

Which is all fine and an acceptable character progression for the overall story.

 

However, in valuing speed over quality, they had her go from Zero-to-Nero in 1.2 seconds....and provided the audience with "Oh, they killed my best buddy" and "Oh, my nephew won't kiss me as hard as I want him to" hopelessly shallow pretexts for her abandoning all rational thought and action and slaughtering innocents when her actions heretofore have been to punish only the enemy, the disloyal, or the treacherous. 

Would have been fine to get her there. Not fine to force the story there. 

But they have been showing you this is who she is for the last 5 seasons. She just finally let the mask fall off completely. Nothing forced at all, just all marketing and illusions were stripped. The angry girl who was cast out and forced to beg across the sea, finally decided no more hiding who she was. She had supporters who kept her base dark inbreed Targaryen nature at bay. She kept losing those ties to humanity, til finally with this last “betrayal” she had nothing left grounding her.

 

There was nothing forced, we just didn’t want to see it over the last few years. She has wanted to burn the world when possible (and done so a few times) for a while now. She just always had people beside her talking her down off the edge.  Those people were all gone now, at least in her mind.  

If she cared only about breaking chains and noble causes, she wouldn’t have cared if the people choose Jon. He clearly would be worthy and honorable enough to lead justly. But she doesn’t really care about benevolent leadership, she just wanted power and revenge. She wanted her enemies cowering or dead. She wanted to rule like a Targaryen.

[zhamlau]

Haha man this is totally feeling like “The Last Jedi” on some level.

[Doc McCoy]

How Game of Thrones Failed Jaime Lannister from Men's Health

Quote

Why would Cersei still be the woman that Jaime loves? Yes, blood is always going to be thicker than water, but let’s consider all that’s happened. Even setting aside the fact that Jaime and Brienne clearly had something that the show should've, and did lean into, Bronn showed up to Winterfell last week, and if Cersei had her way, he would’ve shot a crossbow bolt right through Jaime’s face. Did everyone forget that this happened? Did Tyrion seriously live through this, and still suggest that his brother escape and live a life far away with his murderous, scheming sister? It seems like the showrunners might have completely forgotten that they wrote this branch storyline for Bronn.

Quote

When Jaime left Cersei a season ago, following her double-crossing in the fight against the White Walkers, that should have meant something. Just as his desperate plea to join the North in the fight should have meant something; just as his choice to be the one to finally knight Brienne, and finally consummate his seasons-long simmering relationship with her should have meant something.

Quote

It all rings a bit empty and sudden. It’s almost like someone, at some point, made a mandate—Jaime and Cersei have to die together, in one another’s arms—and Benioff and Weiss had to bend over backwards, undoing years of writing and development, to get those chess pieces into an endgame situation where that could happen.

 

[Doc McCoy]

 

[sacentaur]

1 hour ago, Flaming_Telepath said:

But there is, in so many cases, one event that pushes somebody over the edge, leads them into brutality and unthinking violence.

This.

And modern thinking doesn’t always apply to medieval settings. History is replete with armies losing control and sacking cities, brutally slaughtering innocents In the process. 

The scene where the soldier was going to rape the woman before Jon intervened was noteworthy. When confronting the soldier, Jon did not kill him outright. But after a few seconds the soldier was overcome with bloodlust and he started to resist Jon; only then did he slay one of his own.

As distasteful as it is to acknowledge humanity’s dark side, it exists nonetheless.

[AnthonyTheAbyss]

Jon Snow, the queen slayer

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, jaybuck43 said:

Here's your quote:

And she sees the Red Keep which is to her the home that her family built when they first came to this country three-hundred years ago.

 

My point is, IT'S NOT THE FAMILY HOME THEY FIRST BUILT.  First, they built Aegonfort.  Aegon lived there for 35 years, enough time for much of King's Landing to be built around it.  Then he moved to Dragonstone, lived there, had his kids born, they continued to live there, while the castle was constructed, etc.  The Red Keep is not some deep meaning place for the Targarians.  In fact, when the Targarians fled Valyria before the Doom, they settled on Dragonstone.  Dragonstone is where Aegon was born, it's where he planned his invasion and the conquering of Westeros.  THAT is the family seat.  There is no "OMG It's home, how dare she sit there" rage for the Red Keep.  Now, if Cersei did it in dragonstone, I could understand that rage a LITTLE more.  

I think where you may are leaning is the order of things being built. But the story point is the Targaryens built both structures (if we consider the entire Red Keep as one massive structure).

So the show-runners were not far off the mark, right? You just wanted them to note 'First they had built Aegonfort, which then transitioned to the Red Keep over time'. Just to keep it completely accurate.

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, Doc McCoy said:

 

The look on his face...