Something that has baffled me about "high grades" 0

[atomic1950s]

Something that has baffled me about "high grades"

Ok, hopefully I don't open up a can of worms here. Why exactly do many collectors on here not only pay premium prices, but actively seek out "high grade" comics that are heavily tanning when there are much whiter copies but may have folds, tears, and other wear for fractions of the cost. What exactly is so amazing about having a flat/square comic that you sacrifice page quality/strength? Is it really so great to say you have a high grade book when you can't even open up the book for fear of splitting the spine in half? 

I am not judging anyone, I am genuinely curious.

 

 

 

[Jayman]

Not sure I understand.

I wouldn't call a heavily tanned book high grade especially if the book splits upon opening it! 

[Inaflash]

Although I like high grade books I will not sacrifice page quality for a structurally better book. I have passed up many high grade comic books because of page quality or tanning to the interior covers. To each his own though.

Ken

[Randall Dowling]

The OP's question is one that each collector decides for themselves.  What you're essentially asking is "Why don't eye appeal, gloss and freshness count as much as structure when considering grade?"  The answer is that it used to but with the advent of CGC and other grading companies the focus has shifted to structure.  Mainly because structure is more easily quantifiable.  You can count the number of folds or spine stresses and create a numerical system that corresponds accordingly.  Not so with eye appeal, gloss, and freshness.  The best we have from grading companies in that department is page quality and even that can be all over the place.  There have been other attempts to address the less tangible qualities, with marginal success.  In the end, desirability is in the eye of each collector.

FWIW, like Ken says above, there are many who still factor gloss and freshness in to their grading and even some who value it above structure.

[Artboy99]

When I was trying to find my copy of Planet Comics 15, all I could find were copies with brittle pages. 2.5, 3.0, raw 2.0, raw 1.5, etc but they all had brittle pages. I eventually found my CGC 1.5 with off-white pages.

I think encapsulation can make someone choose a very nice presenting book that might have significant tanning because they won't open it and risk the book falling apart.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Artboy99

[rjpb]

More sophisticated buyers realize the number at the top left corner isn't the final arbiter of quality. One sees this in auction results from time to time, when "high=grade" with lesser eye-appeal sells for less than what would be expected for the grade, and lower grade books with strong eye-appeal sell for more. Still, there are buyers who calibrate their minimum acceptable grade, or what they are willing to pay based more on what CGC says than what their eyes might tell them. A lot of people aren't really comfortable assessing grade themselves outside broader ranges ( low grade, mid-grade, high grade) and need to be re-assured that they are buying a VF or NM book by the label. 

[Sqeggs]

17 hours ago, atomic1950s said:

Something that has baffled me about "high grades"

Ok, hopefully I don't open up a can of worms here. Why exactly do many collectors on here not only pay premium prices, but actively seek out "high grade" comics that are heavily tanning when there are much whiter copies but may have folds, tears, and other wear for fractions of the cost. What exactly is so amazing about having a flat/square comic that you sacrifice page quality/strength? Is it really so great to say you have a high grade book when you can't even open up the book for fear of splitting the spine in half? 

I am not judging anyone, I am genuinely curious.

I don't think you'd find this last part in a high-grade book.  That sounds like a book that has Slightly Brittle pq.

I think you are right, though, that you see high-grade copies of books that have defects that I like to avoid.  There was a 9.6 Church copy of a Centaur in last night's CC auction that had a significant dust shadow.  I would  much prefer a lower grade that had a few dings but didn't have that type of shadow marring the front cover.

[atomic1950s]

1 hour ago, Sqeggs said:

I don't think you'd find this last part in a high-grade book.  That sounds like a book that has Slightly Brittle pq.

I think you are right, though, that you see high-grade copies of books that have defects that I like to avoid.  There was a 9.6 Church copy of a Centaur in last night's CC auction that had a significant dust shadow.  I would  much prefer a lower grade that had a few dings but didn't have that type of shadow marring the front cover.

Yeah you may be right, but even tanning covers with nice pages scare me because it tells me the covers are not far off from being brittle. I guess I care more about the cover paper quality then the page quality, while others are the opposite.

[Randall Dowling]

11 minutes ago, atomic1950s said:

Yeah you may be right, but even tanning covers with nice pages scare me because it tells me the covers are not far off from being brittle. I guess I care more about the cover paper quality then the page quality, while others are the opposite.

Interior cover tanning is unfortunately a function of the pulp that makes up the body of the book and its chemical offgassing.  You can find books that have no cover tanning and cream to off-white pages.  Likewise you can find books that have white pages with tanning on the cover.  It really varies from a given issue to another issue.  Although, I've owned several Gaines File Copies with significant tanning to the interior of the cover (a common phenomena on some GFCs and some ECs in general) and had no sense that the cover was brittle.  Likewise, I've had other books where the cover cracked at the spine and the interior cover wasn't really tanning.  Hard to anticipate.

[rjpb]

19 minutes ago, atomic1950s said:

Yeah you may be right, but even tanning covers with nice pages scare me because it tells me the covers are not far off from being brittle. I guess I care more about the cover paper quality then the page quality, while others are the opposite.

While there is obviously a relationship between tanning/browning and brittleness, books can be deceiving. I've had books with no tanning and off-white pages that have slightly brittle pages - usually localized, like corners that break off, and I've had books with tan pages that are surprisingly supple.  

[N e r V]

I'm paying a bit more attention to PQ these days with cream being my new cut off point for older books. I have but 2 copies in Light Tan to Off White of a couple of hard to get keys with All American #61 and Mister Mystery #6 but they are 4.5 and 5.0 copies. I felt good about the price and although I can't turn the clock back on any book I can help slow the process with correct storage so the book shouldn't age as quickly as it has to this point (in theory).

I also know more than a few dealers/collectors that openly complain that sometimes the PQ assigned doesn't seem correct. In other words they've seen worse PQ get graded higher than better quality more than a few times. One book a friend had was purchased by a dealer who posts here as a Off White pages and came back as Light Tan to Off White. At the same time they had purchased another book with Cream to Off White pages that came back as Off White to White.

I think how you take care of the book while you own it matters too. Someone picked up a book with White pages, cracked the slab, pressed it and resubmitted it only to get a higher number but with Cream to Off White pages. Was it a mistake made back during the first slab by a grader or did the book not get stored correctly allowing the PQ to suffer?

 

 

[Inaflash]

3 hours ago, Randall Dowling said:

Interior cover tanning is unfortunately a function of the pulp that makes up the body of the book and its chemical offgassing.  You can find books that have no cover tanning and cream to off-white pages.  Likewise you can find books that have white pages with tanning on the cover.  It really varies from a given issue to another issue.  Although, I've owned several Gaines File Copies with significant tanning to the interior of the cover (a common phenomena on some GFCs and some ECs in general) and had no sense that the cover was brittle.  Likewise, I've had other books where the cover cracked at the spine and the interior cover wasn't really tanning.  Hard to anticipate.

Gaines copies often have uniformly yellowed or light cream interior covers which is associated with transfer staining and different than tanning. They often have beautiful pages and even though the interior covers are not white, they are supple.

If a book has tanning to the outer edges of the interior covers or along the spine, that is a problem for me.

Ken

[N e r V]

Foxing is ugly although foxing does not affect the actual integrity of the paper.

[Randall Dowling]

27 minutes ago, N e r V said:

Foxing is ugly although foxing does not affect the actual integrity of the paper.

Agreed.  And apparently is still a mystery as to what it even is.  Some say iron molecules in the paper rusting others say it's a mold or fungus.  In any case, I don't like it!

[atomic1950s]

22 hours ago, Inaflash said:

Gaines copies often have uniformly yellowed or light cream interior covers which is associated with transfer staining and different than tanning. They often have beautiful pages and even though the interior covers are not white, they are supple.

If a book has tanning to the outer edges of the interior covers or along the spine, that is a problem for me.

Ken

Badly tanning edges to me is like rust on the edge of a car body, you just know its going to keep creeping inwards. Of course its a miracle comics even survive at all from the 40s and 50s. 

[sacentaur]

23 hours ago, N e r V said:

Foxing is ugly although foxing does not affect the actual integrity of the paper.

Foxing often means the books were in a non-dry climate and thus have better (supple and whiter) PQ.

The downside of course is the aesthetic interference and grade hammering from CGC.

Larsons can be perfect examples of this.

Edited June 15, 2017 by sacentaur

[VegasJeff]

On 6/13/2017 at 6:26 PM, Randall Dowling said:

Agreed.  And apparently is still a mystery as to what it even is.  Some say iron molecules in the paper rusting others say it's a mold or fungus.  In any case, I don't like it!

I've seen foxing many times and to me too it was originally also a mystery. I should mention, I grew up in the ultra-humid parts of Florida and now I live in the ultra-dry desert of Las Vegas. I have also heard recently that foxing is caused by a mold or fungus.

As a kid, I can tell you, I saw so many types of mold and fungus in Florida. I do recall, seeing mold growing on paper products with a heavier dot like pattern similar to foxing that I have seen on books. Usually, the stuff that had that sort of mold pattern were paper products that were left outside and got rained upon and were wet (say like a newspaper left by the side of the road). In Central Florida, it is not uncommon for it to rain everyday in the summer. I've also seen mold seemingly grow out of the air on wooden walls indoors that were kept dry. It seems in super humid places that their just must be microscopic pieces of mold floating through the air. Next time I see something with foxing, I'm gonna take a much closer look with a magnifying glass to see if it matches what I remember and I'll give you my final opinion.

Edited July 4, 2017 by VegasJeff

[sacentaur]

14 minutes ago, VegasJeff said:

Usually, the stuff that had that sort of mold pattern were paper products that were left outside and got rained upon and were wet...

Larsons were originally stored outside in a barn, so that's a likely explanation for the foxing (mold spots).

[lou_fine]

On 6/12/2017 at 9:16 PM, Randall Dowling said:

What you're essentially asking is "Why don't eye appeal, gloss and freshness count as much as structure when considering grade?"  The answer is that it used to but with the advent of CGC and other grading companies the focus has shifted to structure.  Mainly because structure is more easily quantifiable.  You can count the number of folds or spine stresses and create a numerical system that corresponds accordingly.

Gee, and I always thought it had something to do with generating additional streams of revenue for the grading companies with respect to eliminating or minimizing the unsightly or even almost invisible creases, as opposed to QP, gloss, or freshness which they really can't do much about. 

[Mijael.Levy]

Looking for the right Golden Age book is extremly frustrating right now, because when i finally find i nice looking book  it has cream pages and of course the seller is asking above gpa these days. The Batman 65 5.0 pedigree selling right now at ebay for example is a beautiful copy the seller is asking a lot , i would't care to pay extra because of the ped notation and of course the copy looks fantastic but the PQ is a killer for me

Edited July 4, 2017 by Mijael.Levy