Can you over hydrate a book before pressing? 2 2

[RockMyAmadeus]

I've said this surrounded by a table of good pressers: pressing is an ART as much as a science. I don't mind sharing what I know, because good pressing is like good painting: any insufficiently_thoughtful_person can throw oil on a canvas, but only an artist can make art. Proper pressing requires a temperament that most people don't have. All the "technical knowledge" in the world isn't going to make you Kobe Bryant...nor is it going to make you Susan Cicconi.

So, good luck pressing your books...when you're done ruining them, contact someone who knows how to do it correctly. There aren't that many out there.

[Quicksilver Signs]

9 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I've said this surrounded by a table of good pressers: pressing is an ART as much as a science. I don't mind sharing what I know, because good pressing is like good painting: any insufficiently_thoughtful_person can throw oil on a canvas, but only an artist can make art. Proper pressing requires a temperament that most people don't have. All the "technical knowledge" in the world isn't going to make you Kobe Bryant...nor is it going to make you Susan Cicconi.

So, good luck pressing your books...when you're done ruining them, contact someone who knows how to do it correctly. There aren't that many out there.

You have a point when a book has more serious pressable defects like spine roll and such. But your high art analogy doesn't apply to the majority of books being pressed. It does not take an artisan to get rid of NCB creases and finger dimples from an 80's book. It's not art when you can get this service effectively applied for as little as 7 bucks a book from respectable pressers.

[RockMyAmadeus]

33 minutes ago, Quicksilver Signs said:

You have a point when a book has more serious pressable defects like spine roll and such. But your high art analogy doesn't apply to the majority of books being pressed. It does not take an artisan to get rid of NCB creases and finger dimples from an 80's book. It's not art when you can get this service effectively applied for as little as 7 bucks a book from respectable pressers.

Have you ever pressed a book...? I'm guessing not, by your response here.

I've seen plenty of books "pressed" by "respectable pressers" for "$7" that still have problems. *I've* had those same problems.  Anyone pressing a book for "$7" is either dealing with a book that has very little wrong with it to start with (which is certainly true for the majority of books from 1980-up), or they're simply not getting everything they could. "Finger dimples" are one of the more difficult problems to get out without leaving a trace of evidence. (note emphasis)

Think about it: is spending a mere "$7" on something going to get you the best results possible...? Again, anyone can buy a press, stick a book in it, and get "ok" results. But for $7, they are NOT spending any time on that book, and they certainly aren't doing the best job that could potentially be done the vast majority of the time.

"But most books aren't worth more than that to press!" GRANTED! No question about it. And, for most, an "ok" press job usually has an acceptable result.

I have a point whether the book has "serious defects" or not: the temperament to properly press isn't innate in most people, and while many, many people can do a mediocre job of it and call it "good", very few people can do the best job possible.

After all...lots of people can bounce a ball around a basketball court....

PS: I said "art", not "high art." What Susan Cicconi does is high art; everyone else just does art, at best.

PPS: This may be a quibble, but a "crease" cannot be removed, from any book, by pressing. While admittedly the definition isn't completely concrete, a crease is a fold in the paper that has damaged the underlying structure of the paper fibers/ink/sizing, whether it actually breaks the ink surface or not. What you're referring to are rather more properly classified as "bends."

[joeypost]

Most of the people who have pressing videos on line are doing it for the money grab. If they were truly good st their craft they would be working on books, not making videos. If you look at most of the videos they are part of organizations  pushing another agenda, like investing into comics, etc. Those that can...do. Those that can't...teach  

 

[joeypost]

1 hour ago, Quicksilver Signs said:

You have a point when a book has more serious pressable defects like spine roll and such. But your high art analogy doesn't apply to the majority of books being pressed. It does not take an artisan to get rid of NCB creases and finger dimples from an 80's book. It's not art when you can get this service effectively applied for as little as 7 bucks a book from respectable pressers.

Why wouldn't it be art? There is a skill level involved even if some may consider them "easy" defects. I have seen many DIY'ers remove easy defects and introduce many others that cannot be reversed. 

[Quicksilver Signs]

47 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Have you ever pressed a book...? I'm guessing not, by your response here.

I've seen plenty of books "pressed" by "respectable pressers" for "$7" that still have problems. *I've* had those same problems.  Anyone pressing a book for "$7" is either dealing with a book that has very little wrong with it to start with (which is certainly true for the majority of books from 1980-up), or they're simply not getting everything they could. "Finger dimples" are one of the more difficult problems to get out without leaving a trace of evidence. (note emphasis)

Think about it: is spending a mere "$7" on something going to get you the best results possible...? Again, anyone can buy a press, stick a book in it, and get "ok" results. But for $7, they are NOT spending any time on that book, and they certainly aren't doing the best job that could potentially be done the vast majority of the time.

"But most books aren't worth more than that to press!" GRANTED! No question about it. And, for most, an "ok" press job usually has an acceptable result.

I have a point whether the book has "serious defects" or not: the temperament to properly press isn't innate in most people, and while many, many people can do a mediocre job of it and call it "good", very few people can do the best job possible.

After all...lots of people can bounce a ball around a basketball court....

PS: I said "art", not "high art." What Susan Cicconi does is high art; everyone else just does art, at best.

PPS: This may be a quibble, but a "crease" cannot be removed, from any book, by pressing. While admittedly the definition isn't completely concrete, a crease is a fold in the paper that has damaged the underlying structure of the paper fibers/ink/sizing, whether it actually breaks the ink surface or not. What you're referring to are rather more properly classified as "bends."

Would you say CCS is not doing an adequate job on their 12.00 modern fee? Because at that rate they can't be spending more than 15 minutes on the book.  10 minutes would be the max amount of time to make money unless they're paying their artists minimum wage. 

[Quicksilver Signs]

36 minutes ago, joeypost said:

Why wouldn't it be art? There is a skill level involved even if some may consider them "easy" defects. I have seen many DIY'ers remove easy defects and introduce many others that cannot be reversed. 

I liken it more to skill than art but that's all relative. 

[Bomber-Bob]

2 hours ago, Quicksilver Signs said:

You have a point when a book has more serious pressable defects like spine roll and such. But your high art analogy doesn't apply to the majority of books being pressed. It does not take an artisan to get rid of NCB creases and finger dimples from an 80's book. It's not art when you can get this service effectively applied for as little as 7 bucks a book from respectable pressers.

And the book may look good for a couple months but later, months to years later, you look at the book and the creases are back. Especially sad when the book is in a slab. I don't own a press so I have no practical experience but I recognize the fact that it is an art and you need experience and have a natural 'knack' for it.  A two dollar hamburger will never taste as good as a 10 dollar hamburger. Sorry.

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

And the book may look good for a couple months but later, months to years later, you look at the book and the creases are back. Especially sad when the book is in a slab. I don't own a press so I have no practical experience but I recognize the fact that it is an art and you need experience and have a natural 'knack' for it.  A two dollar hamburger will never taste as good as a 10 dollar hamburger. Sorry.

I recently (2016) looked at some books I had had pressed in 2009, before I started doing it myself. I had sent them in, and, since this was when CGC decided to change Modern to 1980-up, I decided to have them sent back to me instead of slabbed. Among them were various Star Wars #5s and #6s.

They looked like they hadn't been pressed at all. And this was a presser who gave "grade estimates"...the grade estimates of the books at the time of pressing and then after 7 years back in the box were entirely different. The 9.8s had reverted to 9.4s, and the 9.6s to 9.0-9.2s.

Not that the presser had done a "bad" job. A bad job would have been unremovable defects...and yes, folks, all of us have done that. The best of us take responsibility for it, but if you've pressed more than 100 books, you've done some unremovable damage, no matter how slight, to a book or two. It's the nature of the work. Any presser who says otherwise is lying...either to themselves, or to everyone else.

But they literally had all their flaws back, as if the books had never been touched.

I re-did the work, SS'd them, and they came back 9.8s with a handful of 9.6s...and I suspect they'll stay that way, because I'm an anal-retentive obsessive.

 

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 hours ago, Quicksilver Signs said:

Would you say CCS is not doing an adequate job on their 12.00 modern fee? Because at that rate they can't be spending more than 15 minutes on the book.  10 minutes would be the max amount of time to make money unless they're paying their artists minimum wage. 

What is "adequate"? Just because a book achieves a certain grade, doesn't *necessarily* mean that all the defects are gone.

CCS does an adequate job on the books they work on. But they aren't doing the very best work, because of the following reasons:

1. Every single book...every single one...is unique. No two books have exactly the same flaws, in exactly the same place, to exactly the same degree.

2. To remove all flaws on a particular book almost always requires a considerable amount of time, attention, and care.

and, by far the most important practicality to consider, which you've pointed out:

3. The vast, vast majority of the books aren't worth it.

I gave up pressing for others, having pressed thousands of books for 7+ years. Why? Because it wasn't worth it. Others were charging that same $7, so the customer base, of course, expected the same turnaround for that same $7-$8-$9-$10. It was madness, because I was spending an hour or two on each and every single book. Total madness, trying to get an X-Men #273 to be perfect. People were throwing hundreds of garbage Copper and Modern books at me, and getting angry at me because I took too long (and I did.) I had to start telling people back in 2014 that it would "take as long as it took", and that if they wanted speed, they would have to find someone else. Some stuck with me, knowing they'd get the best results possible.

And boy, have I gotten some spectacular results. 8.0s to 9.4s, 8.5s to 9.6. 9.2 SA books to 9.8. Other Silver books that professionals had looked at and passed on, turned into 9.8s. Golden age 8.0s that are the highest graded examples. 8.0 Marvel Mysteries into 9.0s. Don't take my word for it; check out my kudos thread. And not because I want to brag, but to show what's possible, given the right amount of skill and artistry.

Pressing is an endless tight-wire balancing act. On the one hand, paper is incredibly unforgiving. You look at it sideways, and you can damage it. On the other hand, you are introducing elements to the book that are perfectly designed to damage it: heat, water, and pressure!

Too gentle, and the damage reverts, if it comes out at all. The book that looks wonderful right out of the press, looks like you haven't touched it 7 days later.

Too hard, and you damage the book. Yes, there have been books that I took "too far." I paid for those mistakes, both financially and in stress.

It takes patience and gentleness and patience and persistence and patience and time and patience and skill and patience and knowledge and patience and experience. Did I mention it takes patience...? How many people do you know that have that kind of patience?

And the Goldilocks Factor, that balance of "just right" is different for every single book.

And it's different for every era, too. Did you know that pressing a Defenders #10 requires a procedure different from pressing a Defenders #1? Did you know that ASM #129 comes with AT LEAST TWO different cover stocks, a glossy and a matte-ish, and that both of those require a little different handling? Do you know how to deal with the overflash for Silver Age books? Did you know that pressing a modern squarebound, like, say, Vengeance of Bane #1, requires a completely different process than, say, Marvel Tales #1? Do you know that Golden Age books tend to have heavier cover stock in many cases that doesn't respond nearly as well as the wonderful cheapo cover stock of a 1962 Marvel? Did you know that pressing DCs from 1962 is different from pressing those 1962 Marvels...? Or Dells, for that matter? That the worst books to press are the very low grade books, because they always, always look like they've been "squished"? (And don't let anyone try to tell you they "know how to make that not look like that." They're lying. A book that is in the 2.0-3.0 range usually has enough accumulation of flaws that pressing is going to make those flaws look unnaturally flaw, when they should have depth to them.) Do you know that there are few things more breathtaking to behold than a pre-1964 Marvel in 9.4+ condition?

Now if I do any pressing for anyone, it's only on books that are worth the effort, if at all. Just got back an X-Men below #10 that was a slabbed 8.0...came back a 9.4. THAT'S why I do it. That made my month. I saw the potential and I made it happen. It's a stunner. And that was for a client. Not because "I'm great, look what I can do" but because "wow. Look what's POSSIBLE!"

No, there are a lot of people "doing" pressing these days. I had a guy buy 160 long boxes from a storage unit in Georgia...knew nothing about comics. Asked me if I "pressed." I nearly laughed out loud. But I can't justify charging what it would take for me to do the work, because none of those books is worth it. Send it to the assembly line pressers, and hope for the best.

There are probably less than 6 people that really know what they're doing, and have the temperament and talent to do it.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 hours ago, Quicksilver Signs said:

I liken it more to skill than art but that's all relative. 

"Skill" is something anyone can develop' "art" is something you either have, or you don't.

Edited June 24, 2017 by RockMyAmadeus

[Quicksilver Signs]

46 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

"Skill" is something anyone can develop' "art" is something you either have, or you don't.

Do you ever think if you're spending an hour or two on each and every book you press that maybe you're not as good at it as you think? 

[RockMyAmadeus]

10 minutes ago, Quicksilver Signs said:

Do you ever think if you're spending an hour or two on each and every book you press that maybe you're not as good at it as you think? 

No, it means that I'm a perfectionist who is never satisfied with the results. The flaw is in the injudicious use of time, not the end result.

I freely admit that I spent far, far too much time looking over a book, examining it for flaws, trying to smooth each and every one, without doing additional damage. An "assembly line presser" I could never be. Did I mention it takes patience...?

But your question is an interesting one. After all...how good do you think I think I am...? It also leads to another question: how does the time it takes to do it relate to how good someone (thinks they) is (are) at something...?

After all...not that I'm in any way comparing myself, but do you know how long it took Michelangelo to paint the Sistine Chapel...?

4 years...and that was just the ceiling.

Maybe he wasn't very good at it.....

You never answered my question: have you ever pressed a book?

Edited June 25, 2017 by RockMyAmadeus

[Logan510]

6 minutes ago, Quicksilver Signs said:

Do you ever think if you're spending an hour or two on each and every book you press that maybe you're not as good at it as you think? 

Kind of reminds me of the early Image excuse they used for late books. They were "growing roses".

[thehumantorch]

9 minutes ago, Quicksilver Signs said:

Do you ever think if you're spending an hour or two on each and every book you press that maybe you're not as good at it as you think? 

Or if you're only spending a couple minutes pressing a book maybe you're not as good at it as you think.

[RockMyAmadeus]

6 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

Or if you're only spending a couple minutes pressing a book maybe you're not as good at it as you think.

That also leads to an interesting set of questions: if one is spending, say, 5 minutes on any single book, how does one 1. take the book out of its bag and board; 2. examine and note flaws, front to back, 3. address those flaws with the proper procedure; and 4. examine the book when that procedure is finished to make sure they have removed said flaws without introducing new ones?

I know there are a lot of pressers who aren't looking at these books. Like, at all. They take the book out of the bag, give it a cursory glance, shove it in the press, take it out when it's "done" (however long that takes), and then stuff it back in the bag...and even THAT procedure takes at least 5 minutes of activity.

That's like restoring a 1967 Firebird by buying  a gallon of Glidden latex semi-gloss, dumping it on the roof, and pronouncing it finished.

You have to EXAMINE the books to see what's wrong with them, don't you...?

 

[comicdonna]

 

16 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

Or if you're only spending a couple minutes pressing a book maybe you're not as good at it as you think.

[thehumantorch]

3 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That also leads to an interesting set of questions: if one is spending, say, 5 minutes on any single book, how does one 1. take the book out of its bag and board; 2. examine and note flaws, front to back, 3. address those flaws with the proper procedure; and 4. examine the book when that procedure is finished to make sure they have removed said flaws without introducing new ones?

I know there are a lot of pressers who aren't looking at these books. Like, at all. They take the book out of the bag, give it a cursory glance, shove it in the press, take it out when it's "done" (however long that takes), and then stuff it back in the bag...and even THAT procedure takes at least 5 minutes of activity.

That's like restoring a 1967 Firebird by buying  a gallon of Glidden latex semi-gloss, dumping it on the roof, and pronouncing it finished.

You have to EXAMINE the books to see what's wrong with them, don't you...?

 

That's just the tip of the iceberg.  Does the book require spot pressing?  Does it have spine roll?  Is there cover edge overhang that can be addressed?  Does it need some tender cleaning?  Is there any foreign deposits on the book that pressing will make worse?  

There's a lot of variables that take time and consideration.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, thehumantorch said:

That's just the tip of the iceberg.  Does the book require spot pressing?  Does it have spine roll?  Is there cover edge overhang that can be addressed?  Does it need some tender cleaning?  Is there any foreign deposits on the book that pressing will make worse?  

There's a lot of variables that take time and consideration.

Tons and tons. Every book is unique, and can't be done correctly without careful examination, which takes time and patience.

Even something as minor as a 1/4" corner bend requires time to examine the whole book, to make sure something hasn't been missed.

Because 99% of the time, the graders will catch it if you don't.

If "I put it in the press, and you get whatever you get" is good enough for folks, pay the $7-$8...and most of the time, that's perfectly ok!...but if you want it done as good as it can be done, well, that's gonna take some time.

[Quicksilver Signs]

Okay here are some quick rates from company websites. With Trace Heft likely the most skilled of the lot, certainly in paper conservation knowledge. These are mostly for  non big dollar books but still expensive books

Hero restoration 20.00

CCS  15.00

Trace heft 42.00 (any book regardless of value)

CFP 20.00

Comicsinaflash 15.00

There is no way you're getting 1 or 2 hours work for a single book with these rates. Half hour would be a bargain. Most likely it's less than 15 minutes, I'd assume the pressers are getting a decent wage