OS Grading Guide Contradictions

[greggy]

(BTW - I really feel like scum having to post this)

 

Don't deny your true existence! Embrace it!

[PovertyRow]

(BTW - I really feel like scum having to post this)

 

Don't deny your true existence! Embrace it!

 

I feel like scum!

 

I feel like scum!

 

I feel like scum!

 

I feel like scum that is used by lower life forms for nutrient!

 

I feel...........dagnabbit......ok?

 

I feel good!

 

I feel like SCUM!

[greggy]

You're preaching to the choir POV!

 

I know that you are scum!

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

You certainly shouldn't feel bad about expressing your honest opinion, but in answer to your question, I hate to contradict you, but the book works well enough to me. I must get at least a half dozen calls and e-mails every week or two since it was out saying how people are matching pics in the book and nailing grades on their own books, so the book must have gotten it right for some people. It's a very subjective thing, though, that's the way it is.

[PovertyRow]

I must get at least a half dozen calls and e-mails every week or two since it was out saying how people are matching pics in the book and nailing grades on their own books

 

Darn I hate to pursue this but...do you know by what criteria they were nailing the grades? I mean, did they grade and then submit to CGC or get another professional opinion? Also, do they tend to mention what grades? My assumption is would a lot easier to nail a VF-NM book than a VG-F book. (sorry )

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

I just spoke to one guy - not an advisor, just a guy who called in to talk about the book - who used the pictures and descriptions to grade a book he thought fell in the GOOD/VERY GOOD area and he adjusted it to GOOD+ when he looked at the pictures. Apparently he felt this was accurate as his transaction went well and everybody agreed on the grade. Another guy I spoke to on Monday said he had a book with a slight water stain that he thought was around VERY GOOD, but when he looked at the Underdog cover on page 232, he matched the general severity of his water damage to that of the example and realized his book could be FINE. It also resulted in a satisfied customer.

 

Obviously I'm only hearing anecdotal stuff from people I don't know, but when I get unsolicited calls saying they're using the book and happy with the results, it makes me feel good. But that doesn't mean that for you or others, it might not be good enough. We just did what we could to try to make it as useful a tool as possible. It was a tough job, let me tell you.

[OldGuy]

I find the text in the book to be much more valuable then the pics. The problems I've had in the past is in grading say a book that's 8.0 in every way, but the center fold is detached at one staple. So what grade is the book? I don't remember the answer, but I know I found the answer in the grading guide.

 

As with anything I think there are plenty of improvements that could be made to the guide, but I also think that it's an over all helpful tool in it's current incarnation.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Thanks very much, OldGuy! I will say that I certainly was far more concerned with writing the descriptions as clearly as possible and with as much attention to detail as we could cram in. So my focus was much more on getting the text right.

[OldGuy]

The more I think about Pov's problem with the pics, the more I think it would be great if in a future printing it was offered (optional) in the same oversized format as the OS price guide is offered. I have no idea how hard that is to accomplish from a publishing standpoint, but I’m sure you could sell enough to make it worthwhile. After all, everyone knows that bigger is better.

[fantastic_four]

I agree that the text is the best part. Another solution to the too-small pics is to make the images available in full size on an accompanying CD-ROM with the book or to make them available via Gemstone's web site.

[towards2112]

arnoldt-

The original guide from 1992, the showcase 4 covered issue

was a tad more simple to understand. I still use it for my

daily dose of reference. The new guide is snazzy, and very

useful as a tool for my customers. BUT, it is a tad overdone.

As an editor you are aware of the 'TMI' problem. Too Much Info

can become a problem. I have occasionally searched through

a tall box of unopened material looking for the 'perfect' comic.

As it was a sealed case of modern, all would pull 9.0 or above

[my assumption], I would find my 'retentive' self so engrossed

that I'd microexam every book, throwing bindry 'fuzzy' corners

into the POS pile. A tad extreme, and the guys that work for

me would just shake their heads. Somewhere along the line

Eric or Perry would pull the grading guide out and start quoting

the 'edicts of Bob'. Praise Bob, all fall to our faces and sing

praises to the wisdom of Bob. [inside joke, you had to be there]

The new guide is just a tad TOO indepth.

The humble ravings of a comic book freak.....

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Well that's a new one, the first person I've encountered that says we provided too *much* information. All I ever hear is how vague we are. But at least we now have both extremes of the reaction spectrum covered .

 

Next time I'm writing a grading pamphlet. Inside will be a description of 9.0 - "a really nice book with shiny things and maybe a big tear on the left" and the rest will say "grade other comics as either '-9.0' or '+9.0.' On eBay, you could list a book as a ----------9.0.

 

[hammer-migration]

Here's what I don't understand about all the k'vetching and complaining about the gross "inaccuracies" of this "horrible" Overstreet grading guide. Do you want to see something even FAR more inaccurate inasfar as trying to "nail down" which defects should be allowed in which grades? Pick ANY ten CGC blue top 8.0s at random and line them up and study the similarities (if you can find any). There will be more differences than similarities. The first one may have 20+ spine stresses, most of which flake the color and look JUST like other CGC books you have graded 6.5. The second one may have chips on the right edge and mottled overflash, just like another one you have graded 6.0. The third may REALLY perplex you because it looks no different than the 9.4 you received last week in the mail. No stresses, no creases, etc., leaving you scratching your head saying to yourself, "8.0? . The fourth one may have only two spine stresses but creases on both right corners, and all the color GONE from the top left, etc. etc. etc. Perform this simple observation and then come back here and post about how "inaccurate" the Overstreet guide is. Also, of paramount importance is WHO the book is being graded for. I "won" a Showcase 14 in CGC 7.5 blue from Greg Manning about 2.5 years ago. The book looked nice from the postage stamp sized scan included in the auction. When it arrived, I thought I was on "Candid Camera" or "Punked". The top left corner was HANGING by a thread, a good 1/4 to 1/2 inch of it. It had MORE flaked spine stresses than could be counted (50+). the right corners were BADLY multiply creased and there was NO bottom left corner (eroded away), as well as chips on the right edge. The book had nice color and that was IT!! On it's best day of days, it couldn't have been possibly mistaken for anything better than a VG even by a person attempting to grade for their first time, and yet, here it was, unfortunately, in front of me in a 7.5 labeled holder!! I won the book for $1000 UNDER guide and couldn't imagine why I won it so inexpensively (evidently, the word was OUT amongst DC collectors about the true grade of this "Gem"). Of course, I couldn't return this POS (all CGC sales final) so I put it up for auction the following week and it returned 1/2 of what I paid (remember: I paid $1000 UNDER guide to begin with), because I imaged it LARGE and CLEAR as I do ALL my scans and it was obvious that the book was a VG (THAT'S what it auctioned at.... about 90% of price guide VG for a CGCed key issue 7.5). Nice, huh?

[OldGuy]

WTF is your point? I don't see where you ever finished your first statement "Here's what I don't understand about all the k'vetching and complaining about the gross "inaccuracies" of this "horrible" Overstreet grading guide." So what don't you understand about all the "k'vetching and complaining" and what does any o fit have to do with CGC? Is this just you unable to get past your CGC resentment or did you just forget to finish your first thought? I’m not trying to bag on you here, just trying to figure out how the grading guide and what you just wrote are related.

[hammer-migration]

If you could see beyond your myopic hatred of me, and unquestioned adoration of CGC (which I now share your blind love of CGC anyway since I've been "converted" to the most hardcore CGC follower on this abyssmal board) an explanation wouldn't be necessary. I'll explain so that even a person with an IQ of under 51 can understand:

 

A) People feel that the Overstreet guidelines are GARBAGE. Inconsistant.

B) There is MUCH complaining about how incompetant Overstreet is.

C) They should take a nice random sampling of CGC 8.0s from their collection and see if CGC is any more consistant in THEIR grading than they find the Overstreet to be.

D) I'll wager that if they are OBSERVANT and not just self-serviant and slavish to CGC (like you, as I now am...I have 10 long boxes of junk books ready to go to CGC for grading..I'm sure good for over $20,000 in grading fees), they will find the SAME KIND OF INCONSISTANCIES that they are complaining about and are attributing ONLY to Overstreet because they are afraid to mention it and anger a vengeful CGC in their minds.

 

Old Guy: If you discount the fact that this post is being made by ME, the most hated Board member (soon to be the most beloved when I become CGCs best customer), and focus on the CONTENT of this post, and the last that you don't understand, you may actually grasp some remote idea of the word's meanings and the sense they make, that is, unless all of your CGC 8.0s or 9.0s, or 9.4s look IDENTICAL, which from what I've noted, is IMPOSSIBLE.

 

I KNOW it's asking for a miracle, and I will notify the Vatican to report a true miracle if you do but, DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

[OldGuy]

Yes Hammer, I understand now. Thank you very much for clarifying that for me.

 

A few points:

 

1. I don't hate you, but you do make it tempting with responses like this.

 

2. If you have ever read any of my posts you know as well as anyone else how funny it sounds when you say things about me like "unquestioned adoration of CGC". ! You have me confused with someone else. I've never submitted a book to CGC and my highest graded CGC book is a lowly 8.5 worth about $75. I'm one of CGC's harshest critics.

 

3. I'm not unintelligent. It may make you feel better to say that I'm stupid, and if that's the case then I'm happy I could help you feel better about yourself.

 

4. You are a very perplexing individual. I have read and enjoyed the vast majority of your posts (80%?) and there are several people on this board that I can't say that about. I just find it bizarre that every now and then you seem to go off the deep end for a week or two. It's almost like identity theft or a medication issue of some kind. Then you'll have a long spell of posting meaningful, productive and informative comments.

 

Anyway, I hope that whatever is bothering you gets worked out. I look forward to seeing the "stable" Hammer again soon.

 

[fantastic_four]

arnoldt-

The original guide from 1992, the showcase 4 covered issue

was a tad more simple to understand. I still use it for my

daily dose of reference. The new guide is snazzy, and very

useful as a tool for my customers. BUT, it is a tad overdone.

As an editor you are aware of the 'TMI' problem. Too Much Info

can become a problem. I have occasionally searched through

a tall box of unopened material looking for the 'perfect' comic.

As it was a sealed case of modern, all would pull 9.0 or above

[my assumption], I would find my 'retentive' self so engrossed

that I'd microexam every book, throwing bindry 'fuzzy' corners

into the POS pile. A tad extreme, and the guys that work for

me would just shake their heads. Somewhere along the line

Eric or Perry would pull the grading guide out and start quoting

the 'edicts of Bob'. Praise Bob, all fall to our faces and sing

praises to the wisdom of Bob. [inside joke, you had to be there]

The new guide is just a tad TOO indepth.

 

It's probably too in-depth for occasional collectors or for dealers who don't sell enough vintage back issues to make it worthwhile to take the time to learn the standards, but it's not too in-depth for hardcore collectors and dealers of issues.

 

For example, if you're grading a VF copy of Ultimate Spider-Man #1 and your average margin of grading error is plus or minus a full grade, then you might think that VF copy is really Near Mint and pay or charge that price for it, which is a full 4-notch misgrade on the 25-notch Overstreet/CGC scale. That's not too big a deal; the price differential between a VF and a NM on USM #1 is only around $30-$50. It takes at least several years of experience to become a tight grader whose margin of error is 1 notch, so if a dealer misprices or a collector overpays on a VF USM #1, they're better off just overpaying or overcharging than investing the time it takes to get really tight at grading.

 

If we're talking about a VF copy of Giant-Size X-Men #1, then misgrading an issue by a full grade is more like a $500 to $1000 margin of error. If you buy or sell books like that on a regular basis, becoming a tight grader is much more worth your while.

 

Now consider a VF copy of Amazing Fantasy 15...or a VF copy of Action Comics #1...now we're in the area where tight grading isn't even an option--you either grade tightly or you lose big money as a collector or you lose customers or risk a lawsuit as a dealer.

 

The Grading Guide is NOT too in-depth, although I can see why some collectors or dealers would think that it is. At least the non-hardcore collectors/dealers can choose to ignore the details they're not interested in, or they can simply forget about the grading guide and use the condensed grading guildelines listed at the beginning of the Overstreet Price Guide. But you've got to realize that those details you think are "too much"--and many more details which will be coming in upcoming years/decades in future grading guides--are necessary for some segments of the back issue industry.

 

If Arnold/Gemstone think the majority of their Grading Guide customers are non-hardcore, then one possibility is to have a condensed section in the book for the people who don't care whether a comic is an 8.5 or a 9.0. It could be an abstract/precis/"executive summary" of the remainder of the book with more detail than the Price Guide gives but less than the meat of the main Grading Guide details.

[hammer-migration]

Actually, the issue is a general one. I enjoy posting on here but it's always tempered with great adversity by:

 

1) a moderator who protects my Trolls like a mother hen defending her chicks.

2) Trolls and certain posters who twist and distort any facts I state that ARE proveable beyond a shadow of doubt with HARD evidence, who don't even READ my entire post before putting their two sense in.

3) folks who INSIST I am not me but some POS from the 80s that they despise so much that the mere thought that he may still exist, as me, distorts their reality and drives them to lash out against me for nothing more than selling raw books and protecting myself from their meddlesome anger by having private auctions (which I didn't initiate until the Dupchak frenzy/hysteria escalated..when I was ALREADY 400-0).

 

90% of my posts are explaining myself to protected Trolls on here, nothing more. Very tiresome. People ask valid questions on here that I don't even bother answering anymore because I know that everytime I do, HowdyDooDee, Carlito's Way, or any other of my Arch approved trolls will climb aboard, unprovokedly and start ripping into me for no reason other than to do just that. THEN, they want to challenge me to fights, telling me that if I show up here and there, they'll kick my [!@#%^&^], and when I simply say, "OK, where and when?", Arch swoops in and gives me a strike. Nice, huh? And folks want to know why I don't go to shows. What bologna. You know why I don't go? Because at this point, I wouldn't be going for enjoyment. I'd be going to crush whatever hand was extended to me as a greeting handshake once those doing so, that have needlessly made my tenure here a living hell, realized that I'm NOT their ghost.

[PovertyRow]

wrong place