Will we ever experience another Marvel Comics success? 2 2

[VintageComics]

It's like comparing Silver Age comics story quality to Bronze Age comics story quality.

Both are great in their respective eras but society itself changed in those decades, as did everything else.

Trying to compare the story in a JIM #85 to Thor #337 would be preposterous. Both are great.

[Gatsby77]

1 hour ago, Lucky Baru said:

Not titles, but if you look at one title that has its own universe , spawned the number #1 TV show, huge fan experiences/cons event(s), then you might want to chat about The Walking Dead in this thread.   People seem to forget home much the title changed comics and that it has been around for almost 15 years.

I don't count Kirkman as a new "Marvel Comics" because he's mostly a one-hit-wonder (along with Invincible)

Walking Dead is a monster hit, but so was TMNT -- and no one claimed that Mirage Studios was "another Marvel." 

And I'd dispute that The Walking Dead "changed comics." I've seen very little of its influence of on mainstream books.

And that's okay. It's original.

Like TMNT before it, it's its own thing.

[Lucky Baru]

TMNT was a parody of itself 15 years into its run.  It was a kids TV show.  While I don't like the Walking Dead; I do respect what it has done for the industry.  I don't short change it as you did in your post.  Without it I wonder where the industry would have gone.  I think it would have gotten a lot smaller than it currently is. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Lucky Baru

[Gatsby77]

25 minutes ago, Lucky Baru said:

TMNT was a parody of itself 15 years into its run.  It was a kids TV show.  While I don't like the Walking Dead; I do respect what it has done for the industry.  I don't short change it as you did in your post.  Without it I wonder where the industry would have gone.  I think it would have gotten a lot smaller than it currently is. 

Huh?

What broader impact has it had on the comic book industry?

It's a single title that has broken into the top 10 consistently, and spawned a popular TV show (for now).

The comic industry still relies on superheroes and the comic book movie arms race between Marvel/Disney/Sony/WB would still have occurred if Walking Dead had never been printed.

It has had nowhere near the cultural impact that TMNT did.

Hell - Walking Dead hasn't even had a large impact on Image comics, whereas TMNT led to an entire B+W self-published indie explosion and subsequent crash.

*Maybe* you could make the argument that Walking Dead's success helped lead Jim Lee to sell Wildstorm to DC, which has led to comicdom being gifted by tons of Jim Lee runs on Batman, Superman, All-Star, Justice League, etc. But even that's a huge stretch.

Even Kirkman himself hasn't been able to duplicate his success -- Thief of Thieves was a hot hit by speculators for a few months and then flamed out and Haunt bombed, despite McFarlane's involvement.

What, exactly, has The Walking Dead done for the industry at large?

[Lucky Baru]

6 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

Huh?

What broader impact has it had on the comic book industry?

It's a single title that has broken into the top 10 consistently, and spawned a popular TV show (for now).

The comic industry still relies on superheroes and the comic book movie arms race between Marvel/Disney/Sony/WB would still have occurred if Walking Dead had never been printed.

It has had nowhere near the cultural impact that TMNT did.

Hell - Walking Dead hasn't even had a large impact on Image comics, whereas TMNT led to an entire B+W self-published indie explosion and subsequent crash.

*Maybe* you could make the argument that Walking Dead's success helped lead Jim Lee to sell Wildstorm to DC, which has led to comicdom being gifted by tons of Jim Lee runs on Batman, Superman, All-Star, Justice League, etc. But even that's a huge stretch.

Even Kirkman himself hasn't been able to duplicate his success -- Thief of Thieves was a hot hit by speculators for a few months and then flamed out and Haunt bombed, despite McFarlane's involvement.

What, exactly, has The Walking Dead done for the industry at large?

It is a book that has consistently broken into the top 10 for how many years?  What other book that is almost 15 years old and hasn't been rebooted every 5 years is selling around 70,000 copies?  That would be none.  What other book has the number 1 TV show?  None.  What other book/show generates the crowds at SDCC like it does?  None, unless we are going to chat about the studios ripping off another story arch from 20+ years ago to make movies out of and that leads back to the post that stated this thread about Marvel.

What has it done for the industry?  It has produced revenue that kept Image alive.  It produced revenue to keep Todd's toy company running.  It lead to the development of other comic titles on TV and on streaming platforms.  It showed producers and studios that their was an audience for comic book characters on the small screen.

Culturally it brought zombies back.  Christ, for a few years they were EVERYWHERE.

If people are going to put Star Wars (the franchise that tells the same story arch every 3 movies with different characters), and Star Trek (don't even get me started on how bad the original show was) in this list them you have to add Walking Dead.  They are all one offs with their own Universes that have become cultural phenomena.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Lucky Baru

[Lazyboy]

28 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

*Maybe* you could make the argument that Walking Dead's success helped lead Jim Lee to sell Wildstorm to DC, which has led to comicdom being gifted by tons of Jim Lee runs on Batman, Superman, All-Star, Justice League, etc. But even that's a huge stretch.

 That's far more than a huge stretch. Jim Lee sold Wildstorm before TWD even existed, let alone achieved success.

[Lazyboy]

4 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

Yeah - but Shadroch's point is still spot-on.

Star Trek was a failed TV show that morphed into a mediocre film series.

Sure, it got a _lot_ better once The Next Generation came out in 1987, but the movies never took took off with consistency.

Even today the overall Star Trek franchise pales relative to Star Wars.

The most successful of the latest trilogy (Into Darkness) made $50 million+ less _worldwide_ than Rogue One did domestically. And the domestic grosses of all three Star Trek films put together was far less than The Force Awakens domestic take. That's not "both ending up winners at the finish line."

The two aren't comparable except that they're both space-based sci fi.

 

 

Star Trek isn't a film series. It's a television franchise which also makes movies.

Am I maybe missing 19 consecutive years of Star Wars TV shows spanning 25 total seasons over 4 different series? Should I judge the success of Star Wars on the 1980s Droids and Ewoks cartoons which combined for 40 episodes?

[ComicConnoisseur]

2 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

What, exactly, has The Walking Dead done for the industry at large?

It made modern comic book speculation explode! Everybody buying moderns hoping for it to be the next Walking Dead!

It also made Hollywood realize that there could be million dollar franchises in those modern non-Marvel/DC comic books.

It has spawned a highly successful million dollar sales line of action figures and video games.

The Walking Dead debuted in 2003,so that's 14 years ago modern comic books last had a new modern mainstream pop culture hit. Other modern comics try,but The Walking Dead succeeded. 

I can't think of one modern comic book that has debuted after 2003 that has come close to even sniffing The Walking Dead's success.

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by ComicConnoisseur

[atomised]

More successful than Marvel?  No.  That said, when I want to read comics I don't reach for the GA and SA books I've collected over the years.  I read something like Locke & Key or say Jeff Lemire's Animal Man and find it very rewarding and in my opinion better and more complex than more popular titles that have reached the mainstream over the years.  I can barely read the reprinted Timely Sub-Mariner volumes I have on the shelf.  I just don't find it interesting.  I don't collect contemporary books, such as material on the Image label, but it's fantastic to read.

[Aweandlorder]

Walking Dead, 1st as the comic - then the show, single-handedly broadened the comic book reader demographic. Mainly with female readers.

Something Marvel and DC have failed to do in many years of trying, at that magnitude, with any one given title.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Aweandlorder

[Aweandlorder]

As much as I hate to admit it I think that McFarlane has the best chance of becoming the next Stan Lee.

Heck, if we were to compare net worth, he already is!

https://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/authors/stan-lee-net-worth/

https://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-businessmen/producers/todd-mcfarlane-net-worth/

Furthermore Todd is a marketing genius. No one can deny his merch power. Just look at McFarlane toys. Heck he probably makes more money from toys than comics.

If McFarlane had adapted Stan Lee's mentality in regards to all of Image's properties, he'd probably be a more known entity in comicdom than Stan is with today's readers

[Comicdey]

Relevance is the key.  Show me something relevant ?

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

It made modern comic book speculation explode! Everybody buying moderns hoping for it to be the next Walking Dead!

I thought we were looking for positive things it did for the industry. Destroying many new titles after a few issues because they weren't selling well enough on the secondary market doesn't help anything.

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

It also made Hollywood realize that there could be million dollar franchises in those modern non-Marvel/DC comic books.

Because TMNT doesn't exist?

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

It has spawned a highly successful million dollar sales line of action figures and video games.

I'm sure that helps Kirkman's bank account, action figures, and video games, but what does that do for comics?

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

The Walking Dead debuted in 2003,so that's 14 years ago modern comic books last had a new modern mainstream pop culture hit.

You think TWD was a mainstream pop culture hit in 2003 (or 2004 or 2005 or...)?

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I can't think of one modern comic book that has debuted after 2003 that has come close to even sniffing The Walking Dead's success.

Yeah, but one highly successful new property does nothing for the industry at large, especially when a lot of the success comes from other media and merchandising.

[ComicConnoisseur]

1 minute ago, Lazyboy said:

I thought we were looking for positive things it did for the industry. Destroying many new titles after a few issues because they weren't selling well enough on the secondary market doesn't help anything.

Because TMNT doesn't exist?

I'm sure that helps Kirkman's bank account, action figures, and video games, but what does that do for comics?

You think TWD was a mainstream pop culture hit in 2003 (or 2004 or 2005 or...)?

Yeah, but one highly successful new property does nothing for the industry at large, especially when a lot of the success comes from other media and merchandising.

All good points.

[shadroch]

3 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Star Trek isn't a film series. It's a television franchise which also makes movies.

Am I maybe missing 19 consecutive years of Star Wars TV shows spanning 25 total seasons over 4 different series? Should I judge the success of Star Wars on the 1980s Droids and Ewoks cartoons which combined for 40 episodes?

So maybe you should be comparing it to Law and Order instead of Star Wars.

Even as a television franchise, how many top ten ratings does it have? How many Emmys?

It's a middle of the road television franchise that slogs along due to there being 300 channels.

Enterprise couldn't even survive in that shallow pool.

Don't get me wrong, I like most Star Trek series and enjoyed some of the movies, but linking the two makes as much sense as linking Harry Potter and the Lord of the Rings simply because they both have wizards.

Edited August 18, 2017 by shadroch

[mackenzie999]

It's much harder, if even possible at all, to achieve Marvel/Beatles etc levels of success today because there are infinitely more entertainment options available today. If I like heroes I can turn to any number of comic companies, graphic novels, I have the ability to see any movie or tv show at any time in any place, I can be the hero myself in video games, I can go to theme parks, the list of options goes on and on. Marvel simply had to be better than DC comics. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Mackenzie999

[kav]

9 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

One could also argue without Star Trek being successful at the cons,maybe Star Wars doesn't get made.

 

Star Wars would have been made no matter what.  After American Graffiti was a surprise hit-the studio actually wanted to throw the film in the garbage until Lucas offered to buy it-Lucas had an idea for another movie-Star Wars-the studio made a deal that if he did American Graffiti 2, they would let him make star wars.  Lucas was smart-he took less money in order to keep all merchandising rights-the studio laughed at this-who was gonna want star wars toys and stuff???

Edited August 18, 2017 by kav

[shadroch]

Star Wars was greenlit in 1976, I would imagine.  Comic Cons were nowhere near as influential  as they are today, and even then Star Trek wasn't that big at them. 

Can't speak about the rest of the country but in NY, Creation shows were all about comics, they didn't transition into Star Trek until the mid to late 1980s. 

Phil Seulings shows were almost all comics and pulps. No big Star Trek presence.  I do remember a few kooks entering the costume Parade as Klingons but they looked more like elves, with their pointy ears.

[Gatsby77]

On The Walking Dead - Everything Lazyboy said.

The Walking Dead wasn't even close to a hit in 2003 (or even 2005). And it didn't become a break-out bestseller until after the show debuted in 2010.

Regardless, it's one title. And even Kirkman has been unable to duplicate his success so far -- which demonstrates exactly how he's not "the next Marvel" any more than was Dave Sim, with his landmark 300 issue run on Cerebus.

Here's the list of the Top 300 comic book titles for May. https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/37771/top-300-comics-actual-may-2017

There are precisely three non-Marvel/DC books in the top 100.

The Walking Dead (# 10)

Seven to Eternity (# 79)

Paper Girls (# 91)

And Kirkman's other title, Outcast?

Hanging out # 127 with well under 18,000 copies ordered.

Yup -- certainly have a challenger to Marvel there. Yup...

[Lazyboy]

9 hours ago, shadroch said:

So maybe you should be comparing it to Law and Order instead of Star Wars.

I'm not the one who made the original comparison, I just questioned your comparison.

9 hours ago, shadroch said:

Even as a television franchise, how many top ten ratings does it have?

I don't know the answer to that, or even if there is a proper answer.  I found this:

https://web.archive.org/web/20101205052936/http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Contrib/SciFi/StarTrek/history.html

9 hours ago, shadroch said:

How many Emmys?

Apparently 31 wins in 144 nominations. How many Oscars has the Star Wars franchise won?

9 hours ago, shadroch said:

It's a middle of the road television franchise that slogs along due to there being 300 channels.

There were 300 channels in 1987? I guess I wasn't watching enough TV then.

Quote

Don't get me wrong, I like most Star Trek series and enjoyed some of the movies, but linking the two makes as much sense as linking Harry Potter and the Lord of the Rings simply because they both have wizards.

I agree. They are completely different things.