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Avengers 93 - I say it's the HARDEST Bronze Marvel "key" to find...

Started by jordanabigail,

40 posts in this topic

jordanabigail

jordanabigail

Posted
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I know we've all discussed this to death, but it's amazes me that there is never a high grade copy of this book up for sale. Why? Only 3 9.6 copies have been graded and only 6 9.4 copies. 9 copies of this book - that's insane.

Anyone have that book that lists the circulation numbers from the 70's?

Any theories on why we never see this book up for sale?

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joe_collector

joe_collector

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1) It's a 25-cent Giant, and with the exception of Spidey, FF and some of the first appearances and hot-sellers, these issues are all tough.

 

2) In the 15- to 25-cent transition, many buyers just said no, leading Marvel to rethink the move and readers to whittle down their monthly buys.

 

3) Dark cover color.

 

4) Not widely recognized as a Key Issue, hence not a big submission target.

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Zonker

Zonker

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2) In the 15- to 25-cent transition, many buyers just said no, leading Marvel to rethink the move and readers to whittle down their monthly buys.

 

May be so. Reminds me of the story that has been around that Marvel and National Periodical Publications had this "understanding" that they were both jumping from 15 cents to 25 cents. Marvel head-faked Nat'l by doing it for exactly 1 month, then immediately jumped back to 20 cents and undercut DC comics prices by 5 cents for the next year or so. Solidified Marvel's sales lead over DC throughout the 70's.

 

I tend to believe that story, since no way would Marvel have had sales figures on their first 25 centers in time to change course. That had to have been the plan all along, eh? (Stan's always been a sharp operator-- Funky Flashman indeed!)

 

Cheers,

Z.

 

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joe_collector

joe_collector

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That's a possibility, but apparently the negative reply (phone calls, distributors getting shafted on orders, etc.) was pretty bad, and if you read the Bullpen Bulletins, Stan writes that Marvel apologizes for the cost increase, etc., etc. and that it's a permanent thing.,

 

Then the next month, he's groveling for forgiveness and headed back to 20-cents. It all looks on the up-and-up and there are even some references to first-hand accounts of the reader resistance to the 25-cent price, not to mention difficulty getting artists up to the new page count.

 

It may have been a ruse, and if so, Stan deserves an Academy Award and missed his true calling.

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COI

COI

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This book is definetly tough above VF/NM. The problem is, you'd have to be sure it would get a 9.2 to justify the cost of slabbing. Like many bronze books, it is not tough in 9.0 or lower, so the difference in price is huge. And being that it's a squarebound, it's highly susceptible to flaws that would keep it just outside of a solid NM. Therefor, there isn't a mad dash to send copies in, and that's one of the possible resons there aren't many on the census. But in terms of overall scarcity, it's easy to find in VF or lower. Give it a couple more years and I'm sure there will be at least a couple more 9.4 copies, and quite a few 9.0's and 9.2's. Unlike the Silver age, I'm positive there are still a lot of bronze NM's that have yet to be submitted.

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bronze

bronze

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>>>>>May be so. Reminds me of the story that has been around that Marvel and National Periodical Publications had this "understanding" that they were both jumping from 15 cents to 25 cents. Marvel head-faked Nat'l by doing it for exactly 1 month, then immediately jumped back to 20 cents and undercut DC comics prices by 5 cents for the next year or so. Solidified Marvel's sales lead over DC throughout the 70's>>>>>

 

Well if Marvel did "head fake" DC,why did DC continue on their present course?

They could have just as easily dropped back down to 20 cents as well as soon as they got wind of what Marvel was doing.But they probably figured it would be best not to sink to Marvels level and stay the course,meanwhile,essentially DOUBLING the number of pages that Marvel was offering,but for just a nickel more.Doesn't sound like they were being "undercut" at all.They did this from Aug '71 to June '72 then dropped to 20 cents with the July issues and didn't go back to 25 cents until April 1975,overall,holding the line on another price increase for nearly 3 years.

So Marvel shot themselves in the foot with that "one month@ 25 cents" maneuver.

They also went to 25 cents cover 11 months(May '74) before DC did(April '75).

All of the above(now that I've done a bit of research) leads *me* to believe that "the story" is just that.I mean a whole ten cents price increase agreement between the big 2,back in the day,when the previous norm had been only pennies?(eg. 10 cents,to twelve cents,to 15)Of course the increasing economic realities were becoming more pervasive but,if you pro rate the price structure through out time,it still took 34 years for comics,on average to go from 10 to 20 cents in price!!!But DC not only started with 48 pages for a quarter,they added 4 more later on for the same price.(Ok,not a big deal,but still...they could've inched up the price)Exponentially though,when comics went to 25 cents,(in 1975 for DC)it got higher and faster from there.

 

Whats my point? I don't know anymore!!! confused.gif

 

BTW Avengers 93 dude,better have a gander at ebay today 'cause I saw what you're looking for,at least in F+ condition.

 

BTW my vote also goes for Marvel Feature #1 (1st and O,Defenders) as a toughie!!

 

 

 

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Zonker

Zonker

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Hey bronze and Joe CI...

 

OK I found my source and I'm partly wrong and partly right. Stan the Man is not implicated... it's Martin Goodman who is the heavy in this story, and there's also no indication the move was premeditated. But I still personally find it hard to believe Marvel could turn on a dime (heh!) within a month based on sales figures. Maybe it was the distributors who pushed back as soon as they heard about the 10-cent price hike?

 

Anyway, here is the source from pg 112-113 of the first Comic Book Artist collected edition.

 

Roy Thomas is speaking (to Stan Lee):

"You may recall that in 1971 Martin Goodman suddenly made the decision to jump the page count to 48 pages for 25 cents. Then, after one glorious month of these big books, they were suddenly dropped back down to 32 pages for 20 cents."

 

Then later Roy says:

"I remember that one of the few times I met with Martin Goodman...Goodman was talking about how suddenly we were going to cut all the books down in size and that DC was going to take a bath if they didn't follow suit right away-- and they did take a bath, because they kept the giant-size books for a year and Marvel just murdered them. So it was a very smart move..."

 

All for now...

Z.

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clobberintime

clobberintime

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I have seen a lot of 93s and they seem to suffer more from printing errors than the other giant books. Not really sure why but have seen many that look perfect except for a lumpy spine or mangled spine. I have a cgc 9.2 that I am pretty happy with - I think I have seen a 9.4 for $500?

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Zonker

Zonker

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bumpit.gif

 

Hey bronze and Joe CI...

 

OK I found my source and I'm partly wrong and partly right. Stan the Man is not implicated... it's Martin Goodman who is the heavy in this story, and there's also no indication the move was premeditated. But I still personally find it hard to believe Marvel could turn on a dime (heh!) within a month based on sales figures. Maybe it was the distributors who pushed back as soon as they heard about the 10-cent price hike?

 

Anyway, here is the source from pg 112-113 of the first Comic Book Artist collected edition.

 

Roy Thomas is speaking (to Stan Lee):

"You may recall that in 1971 Martin Goodman suddenly made the decision to jump the page count to 48 pages for 25 cents. Then, after one glorious month of these big books, they were suddenly dropped back down to 32 pages for 20 cents."

 

Then later Roy says:

"I remember that one of the few times I met with Martin Goodman...Goodman was talking about how suddenly we were going to cut all the books down in size and that DC was going to take a bath if they didn't follow suit right away-- and they did take a bath, because they kept the giant-size books for a year and Marvel just murdered them. So it was a very smart move..."

 

All for now...

Z.

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awe4one

awe4one

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DC made rash distribution and printing arrangements to compete with Marvel's 25 cent Giants. They contracted for a year's worth of 25 cent issues. So they were stuck with the format after Marvel switched back...DC didn't have a choice. The move was disasterous for DC's circulation and a boon for Marvel...

 

Jim

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Zonker

Zonker

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They did have reprints, which personally I loved collecting as back issues and made me a lifelong DC fan. But they probably did turn off a large portion of the current comics readership. Some of the strips reprinted included:

 

Simon & Kirby's Sandman, Manhunter, Newsboy Legion, Boy Commandos in the Kirby 4th World books

 

Golden Age Batman (plus some New Look Silver) in Batman

 

Golden Age first app of Dr. Fate, Sandman, Starman, etc. in JLA

 

Animal Man, Frazetta Shining Knight, Kubert Hawkman in Adventure Comics

 

Kubert Enemy Ace in Star Spangled War

 

Infantino Flash in the Flash

 

Alex Toth & Gil Kane GLs in the back of the Neal Adams GL/GA yay.gif

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MikeS

MikeS

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I know we've all discussed this to death, but it's amazes me that there is never a high grade copy of this book up for sale. Why? Only 3 9.6 copies have been graded and only 6 9.4 copies. 9 copies of this book - that's insane.

Anyone have that book that lists the circulation numbers from the 70's?

Any theories on why we never see this book up for sale?

 

A couple of years later - 4 graded at 9.6 and 8 at 9.4.

 

Only a couple high grade copies a year!

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