What/why/and how was 1964 the beginning of modern style comic book collecting? 3 3

[Knightsofold]

I've read it time and time again that mid to late 1964 people started buying multiple copies of comic books.  Overstreet frequently(always?) mentions that comics published in mid-late 1964 are abundant.  

Where people actually buying multiple copies as speculators?

Were some making a fast profit by selling in the short term?

If the print runs also went up at the time, how is that factored in?

I'd love to hear any stories or see links to first hand witnesses and/or participants in the 1964 "change".

Other things happening in 1964:

 

[NoMan]

There is a good book about the first comic convention in 1964 that (I believe) covers some of what you seek. There are reproductions of price lists and such. I'd fill you in more but my wife is currently yelling at me. 

Good luck!

[Terry E.]

Seriously as someone who was reading super hero comics from around 1959 forward as a child and had friends at primary school then at high school I would say I had never heard of anyone buying multiple copies. Many waited until they hit the second hand shop and you paid 5c instead of 12c or gave them away. I was given a very good X-Men run from 1-10 and some early under 25 Spideys, and I passed them onto a Marvel friend who gave them away to a younger fan who sold them for 3c each to a second hand comic shop and then bragged about how smart he was.

Alter Ego has a really good issue on the 1965 NY Comic Con which had professionals give a panel. I know Wessingher was one, I think Otto Binder was another, Roy Thomas was moderator, Marv Wolfman was in the audience. Stan worked a few blocks away but was too busy to attend (how times changed). DC gave full covers to the winners of the Masquerade (First Comic Con Cosplay contest) and I think eventually every contestant took away a cover or splash. Most fans were 20+  and although interested in the new super hero explosion, many believed that the high point of Comics had come and past with pre Code EC.

 

Also most of these books even if you grabbed them new off the racks you were lucky if they would grade as a  9.4 on the day. Those racks were not friendly to such disposable materials. In Australia every now and then I find Australian editions that are 9.0 to 9.6 and I am amazed. There were rare individuals all over the world who really loved this stuff, and went to great lengths to make sure they had great books, but I never met one personally neither did my friends or did I ever hear about anyone meeting one. Sure I have read about them but never met one.

I think what started to happen was that many readers as they grew older stopped lending them to friends and started to look after them in a more mature way. I am now glad I gave my early 1.5-2.5 comics away as when I came back in the 1980s I grabbed the best grade I could. Hard to do just from catalogs but the collection is way better than what it would have been if I had held onto that stuff.

As a reminder I have kept a JLA 38 from when I bought it off the stands. Read by countless friends. A true 1.5 - 1.8 at best. It is a reminder of what comics in the 60s were all about.

 

And I would not get excited by those hundred thousand print runs as in the 1940s Captain marvel was counted in the millions.

 

Anyway interesting topic.

 

 

[VintageComics]

I don't know so much about collectability and hoarding in the mid 1960's but I do know that as the years progressed comics were produced with better quality, allowing them to be preserved.

Early Marvels were horrific with smudging, chipping and pre-chipping, poor stapling, varying paper and ink quality.

By the mid 1960's production quality was better and more consistent.

By the late 1960's it had improved again, including much stronger cover stock and ink quality.

These factors to me helped preserve comics greatly.

I'm only speaking for Marvels. I can't speak for DC.

[Knightsofold]

20 hours ago, Terry E. said:

Seriously as someone who was reading super hero comics from around 1959 forward as a child and had friends at primary school then at high school I would say I had never heard of anyone buying multiple copies. Many waited until they hit the second hand shop and you paid 5c instead of 12c or gave them away. I was given a very good X-Men run from 1-10 and some early under 25 Spideys, and I passed them onto a Marvel friend who gave them away to a younger fan who sold them for 3c each to a second hand comic shop and then bragged about how smart he was.

Alter Ego has a really good issue on the 1965 NY Comic Con which had professionals give a panel. I know Wessingher was one, I think Otto Binder was another, Roy Thomas was moderator, Marv Wolfman was in the audience. Stan worked a few blocks away but was too busy to attend (how times changed). DC gave full covers to the winners of the Masquerade (First Comic Con Cosplay contest) and I think eventually every contestant took away a cover or splash. Most fans were 20+  and although interested in the new super hero explosion, many believed that the high point of Comics had come and past with pre Code EC.

 

Also most of these books even if you grabbed them new off the racks you were lucky if they would grade as a  9.4 on the day. Those racks were not friendly to such disposable materials. In Australia every now and then I find Australian editions that are 9.0 to 9.6 and I am amazed. There were rare individuals all over the world who really loved this stuff, and went to great lengths to make sure they had great books, but I never met one personally neither did my friends or did I ever hear about anyone meeting one. Sure I have read about them but never met one.

I think what started to happen was that many readers as they grew older stopped lending them to friends and started to look after them in a more mature way. I am now glad I gave my early 1.5-2.5 comics away as when I came back in the 1980s I grabbed the best grade I could. Hard to do just from catalogs but the collection is way better than what it would have been if I had held onto that stuff.

As a reminder I have kept a JLA 38 from when I bought it off the stands. Read by countless friends. A true 1.5 - 1.8 at best. It is a reminder of what comics in the 60s were all about.

 

And I would not get excited by those hundred thousand print runs as in the 1940s Captain marvel was counted in the millions.

 

Anyway interesting topic.

 

 

Thanks for the first hand experience!  Also for the Alter Ego recommendation.  I want to get a bunch of those, but find the sheer amount of them overwhelming, and never seem to commit to buy/collect.

[Knightsofold]

Here are some of the things overstreet said about the 1964 shift:

From the 1974 Overstreet:

"Speculation in the comic book market started becoming popular around 1964"

"books from 1964 to present are in plentiful supply"

From the 1992 Overstreet:

"the hoarding of comics that began in the mid-60's"

 

[Terry E.]

Yeah that "supply is plentiful" but those hoarding them and buying them up were buying anything. Bob is also talking 1960s vs 1940s, where many key books were just near impossible for collectors of that day to find. In the 1970s -1980s collectors had no idea how much 2.0-4.0 was out there until ebay arrived. Many dealers in the 80s were still amassing huge stocks of low grade silver age waiting for silver age to boom, which it did in the 1990s then it adjusted and is still adjusting. The dealers would not pay , much for it but were waiting for its time, which appeared to arrive late 80's spurred on by ever rising values in OSPG. Not sure if for these books the OSPG was creating the market rather than reporting it. Unless in very high demand, ASM 1-50 FF 46-52, Flash 110,123,139, Tec 359, you can still pick up low grade at a very affordable price. But not high grade. Yep people were chasing them but I am not sure about buying multiples off the rack as happened in the 1990s.

I think looking after them so much better came in around 1968-1970. Which gave rise to a common dealer statement that "nothing after 1970 will ever be worth anything (comparatively) as fans had started to buy with the intention of keeping and not just buying, reading  and junking.

 

and final comment, I think in 1964 if you offered a fan 5 copies of ASM 14 or a 4.0 EC classic I am pretty sure which one he would grab. Even the people making Super Hero comics were waiting for the next crash, and never thought it would last. That may have been why it took Marvel so long to get on Board. Even Archie came back before Atlas/Marvel. Anyone just some thoughts from someone on the fringe of the big city scenes.

 

 

[lou_fine]

On 8/24/2017 at 11:37 AM, NoMan said:

There is a good book about the first comic convention in 1964 that (I believe) covers some of what you seek. There are reproductions of price lists and such. I'd fill you in more but my wife is currently yelling at me. 

Good luck!

Still waiting to hear the rest of your story or is your wife stay yelling      at you even now? 

Or do we need to call 911 at this time?   

[NoMan]

Just now, lou_fine said:

Still waiting to hear the rest of your story or is your wife stay yelling      at you even now? 

Or do we need to call 911 at this time?   

we went white water rafting and she broke her ankle in 3 places so she's kinda grumpy. it's ok. she didn't buy a horse and let me get an "X-Men #1" instead so…. 

[FineCollector]

On 24/08/2017 at 9:19 PM, Terry E. said:

 

And I would not get excited by those hundred thousand print runs as in the 1940s Captain marvel was counted in the millions.

 

 

Wouldn't happen to know where they're all hiding, wouldja? 

[oakman29]

Most importantly 1964 brought the birth of little oak, whom has since become an Oakman. 

[ft88]

The multiple copies didn't really happen until the late 60s and into the early 70s.  And even then no where near what it grew into fro the mid 1970s to 80s to 90s on up. 

Even in the GA there was that one pedigree where the OO bought only #1 issues.  I forget the pedigree and I don't believe there were multiples.  But certainly the OO was buying with a mind for collecting and resale later.  IIRC certain first issue magazines from decades back had higher value and the OO thought (correctly) the same could happen with comics. 

Then there are the distribution issues.  Again, I don't have perfect recollection but the Mile High II collection went back to the mid 60s if not 64 where there were multiple high grade unread issues.  FF 48 comes to mind.  Wasn't this a warehouse of returned issues, from news stands and the like, that weren't pulped?  See the centerfold of a 1980 Marvel book from Mile High to see what was in the warehouse purchase.  I believe there were upwards of 100 copies each and sometimes more of any given book. 

There have been finds of the 1968 Marvel #1's with upwards of 20-40 copies each.  And more than 1 find as well.  Why they have very high population numbers at 9.4 and above.  Then there's the Conan 1 story where a guy bought either 100 or multiple 100s of Conan 1 for 15 cents and then sold them for $3 or so at a convention within maybe a year or two.  This lead to the explosion of buying #1's in the 1970s such as Howard the Duck, Red Sonja, Nova,  Star Wars as well as DC books and Seaboards.  All of these were pretty much dead until only the last 10 years or so with the huge demand. 

So while OS is correct that 1964 is a good year to target when comic supply became larger, its more that the dead 50s and early 60s due to the Wertham and CCA had drastically reduced supply and demand.  With the rebirth of superheroes - which took a while - the early 60s books are still tough, but by 1964 they were getting to be mainstream with TV and merchandise and return stock being the main culprits IMO.

[Glassman10]

I got tons of DC's in the fifties but my mom did what mom's everywhere did to them. There should have been a super hero storyline called "Whence cometh the Trash Man". All those Green lantern and Challengers of the Unknown gone. JLA in shambles.

 I started buying multiples in the mid sixties but it was always just one extra. One was a reading copy and the other put away. I usually only did that with number 1's but some runs into the '70's, I did buy extras with the notion of speculation which was not my original goal. When Kirby moved to DC and ran his trilogy, I did get a lot of them and it never panned out.  Too many people with the same idea and not a captivating storyline.  Safe storage methodology was an issue back then as well. Why I bought multiples of ASM 129, I can't explain at all. At any rate, Bob Storms owns them all now except for my AF 15 and it's consigned. I'm really amazed at how a group could put out so many titles, drawn, inked, lettered, off to the printers and distributed nationwide at 10-12 cents an issue, turn around and do it again in four weeks. .

[mosconi]

I think most people would agree that Marvel comics from the 60's are indeed in plentiful supply and were heavily collected by 1964.  But my question is, how were these comics stored, handled, and preserved by collector's back then?  There were no comic bags or comic boxes to keep your new issues in NM condition, and most newsstand copies were certainly not in NM condition off the racks to begin with.  Improper storage or mishandling could easily turn a VF/NM into something much less.  Did most speculator's/collector's really know how to take care of their comics back in the 60's?

[ft88]

No but buying multiples and not handling them over the years leads to many a 9.6 or 9.8.  My recollection, there was a find (All Star Comics bought them from the OO IIRC) where 20+ copies of the 1968 Marvel #1 books were wrapped raw in aluminum foil and stored indoors - not the attic.  Many many 9.6/9.8s with White pages.  Before 1968 though, the high grades tend to be those not touched until around the time of sale to a dealer or even ebay sometimes. 

I came across a mid 1970s collection where they were all unprotected on stacks on a book case.  Hadn't been touched probably since the early 1980s.  Layer of dust on the top copy.  Quite a few 9.4 to 9.6's came out of that.  Each find is different but there are literally 1000s of collections, large and small, from the 1970s and 100s from even the early 1960s.  Sure most 1960s are G to VG type, but not all.

I still go back to the Mile High II warehouse purchase.  It'd be interesting to know how many % of those copies make up the population of 9.4 on up.

Ed

[Tri-Color Brian]

Buying multiple copies might have "begun" in 1964, but it didn't reach it's peak until around 1968-73.  I was there, I saw what was going on.  In fact, most collectors were so disconnected back then that few were aware of the potential value of their books ( unless they read the ads by Howard Rogofsky in 1966).  The majority of comic readers and collectors did not know what "Rockets Blast" or "Alter Ego" was, or any other fanzines.  There were no regular comic shows to attend.  No comic shops.  We bought our books at newsstands, drug stores, 7-11, etc.  Old comics were bought at a handful of used bookstores in L.A.  I didn't start buying multiple copies until 1972...

Edited August 30, 2017 by tricolorbrian

[Terry E.]

and of course by the time Marvel secret wars 8 came out you got to order them by the box..

 

for 30 is was 60c each but if memory serves by the time you ordered 100 is was at 30c each

 

I remember a dealer slashing prices on Miller Wolverine 1 for a A$1 and also Spiderman 252, but lets not talk about some of the others I bought .. Ambug Bug anyone ..

 

[Readcomix]

There's also the stories of the Robert Bell collection....stories of unopened distributor cases (that's 300 copies) of various '60s books, getting opened in the 1980's by the dealers he sold to.

[mosconi]

25 minutes ago, Readcomix said:

There's also the stories of the Robert Bell collection....stories of unopened distributor cases (that's 300 copies) of various '60s books, getting opened in the 1980's by the dealers he sold to.

[mosconi]

10 hours ago, ft88 said:

No but buying multiples and not handling them over the years leads to many a 9.6 or 9.8.  My recollection, there was a find (All Star Comics bought them from the OO IIRC) where 20+ copies of the 1968 Marvel #1 books were wrapped raw in aluminum foil and stored indoors - not the attic.  Many many 9.6/9.8s with White pages.  Before 1968 though, the high grades tend to be those not touched until around the time of sale to a dealer or even ebay sometimes. 

I came across a mid 1970s collection where they were all unprotected on stacks on a book case.  Hadn't been touched probably since the early 1980s.  Layer of dust on the top copy.  Quite a few 9.4 to 9.6's came out of that.  Each find is different but there are literally 1000s of collections, large and small, from the 1970s and 100s from even the early 1960s.  Sure most 1960s are G to VG type, but not all.

I still go back to the Mile High II warehouse purchase.  It'd be interesting to know how many % of those copies make up the population of 9.4 on up.

Ed

The "aluminum foil" collection.  Ingenious and seems to have worked out.  Had never heard of that storage method before!

Edited August 31, 2017 by mosconi