Does Zack Snyder deserve all the movie hate? 0

[Bosco685]

Although I like Man of Steel more, Superman Returns does have some memorable scenes I really appreciate. Even his reflecting back on farm life as he dealt with his powers.

 

[chrisco37]

MOS was better than Returns.  

[ComicConnoisseur]

4 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Not to pick on your post, but you meant 'MOST CRITICS WOULD AGREE...'

AUDIENCE SCORE:

- Superman Returns: 61%, 3.3/5.0, 516,694 contributors

- Man of Steel: 75%, 3.9/5.0, 445,767 contributors

Continue on with the story.

Clearly than we have another case of the critics not liking another Snyder movie compared to the general audience.

That's why I am going to go back and re-watch both Man of Steel and Superman Returns during the month, so I can find out why they liked the Singer version of Superman better than the Snyder version of Superman.

 

 

 

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Clearly than we have another case of the critics not liking another Snyder movie compared to the general audience.

That's why I am going to go back and re-watch both Man of Steel and Superman Returns during the month, so I can find out why they liked the Singer version of Superman better than the Snyder version of Superman.

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

47 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

 

It looks like won't be until about the end of the month. I am finishing Black Mirror on Netflix and am about to start the Harry Potter series of movies for the first time watching on HBO streaming.

So once those are out of the way it will be fun to revisit both the Snyder and Singer Supermans and compare them.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2018 by ComicConnoisseur

[NewEnglandGothic]

Going to finish The Deathly Hallows, Part 2 tonight. I stopped watching at The Goblet of Fire when they were in theaters. Been slowly picking away at them during this cold stretch. They are pretty magical, even for 40-year-olds.

Siskel & Ebert had their moments too.

Pre-internet, “respected” film critic Gene Siskel once included Betsy Palmer’s phone number in a review of “Friday The 13th” for fans of previous beloved work (Mister Roberts, etc) to talk sense into her from appearing in that kind of drek.

[Mr Sneeze]

1 hour ago, miraclemet said:

1 hour ago, Mr Sneeze said:

It's funny (or maybe it's not) but I am quite fond of both those movies. Singer's Superman is very well done, very much a love letter to the original.

I consider the Space plane rescue in Returns to be one of the best superhero movie sequences of the modern superhero era.

Agreed!

[NewEnglandGothic]

I might not be a fan of his recent string of films, but I feel nothing but sorrow for him and his wife.

Hopefully the Synders can produce a personal film on teen/young adult suicides to help themselves heal and build an awareness toward a tragedy that hit home and what so many families face on a day to day basis around the world.  

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, NewEnglandGothic said:

Going to finish The Deathly Hallows, Part 2 tonight. I stopped watching at The Goblet of Fire when they were in theaters. Been slowly picking away at them during this cold stretch. They are pretty magical, even for 40-year-olds.

Siskel & Ebert had their moments too.

Pre-internet, “respected” film critic Gene Siskel once included Betsy Palmer’s phone number in a review of “Friday The 13th” for fans of previous beloved work (Mister Roberts, etc) to talk sense into her from appearing in that kind of drek.

  Address. Not her phone number.

Friday the 13th (1980): 10 Things You Didn’t Know

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4. Gene Siskel hated it so much he tried to troll Betsy Palmer

The angry critic goes the extra mile by encouraging his readers to troll Betsy Palmer. He goes so far as to include her home address for people to write to. Yes, he actually wanted strangers to harass the star of the movie simply because he didn’t like it. Fortunately, Betsy never received a single letter, because Siskel apparently used the wrong address.

OFFBEAT: Betsy Palmer joining Friday the 13th Teibel's luncheon with fun film stories

Quote

"Gene Siskel was fit-to-be-tied that I had done this role and wondered how I could let my viewing audience down by playing this murderess," she said.

 

"And he told his readers and viewers to write to me to express their displeasure and gave out my home address. Fortunately, he had mistakenly given out my old address from when I lived in California, so I never got a single letter."

Still, a crappy way to express dislike of a movie. Though at least with the mail these things can be controlled what to open and what not to open.

Calls - much more troubling to deal with.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Bosco685

[Gatsby77]

Wasn't a personal attack, but I lost a lot of respect for Roger Ebert when he revealed the twist of The Crying Game during their 1992 "If We Picked the Winners" Oscar special.

Siskel was understandably pissed at him for that too.

Of course, you could also tell whenever Siskel was _really_ angry at him -- he'd bring up "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" -- Ebert's horrific screenplay for Roger Corman, and the reason he ended up becoming a critic rather than a (successful) screenwriter.

[jsilverjanet]

How many of these new critics have studied film or have a degree in journalism

looking at some of the movies they’ve score 100s for I highly doubt they know anything about film 

[Ken Aldred]

3 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

Of course, you could also tell whenever Siskel was _really_ angry at him -- he'd bring up "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" -- Ebert's horrific screenplay for Roger Corman, and the reason he ended up becoming a critic rather than a (successful) screenwriter.

Charlie Brooker went in the opposite direction, from being best-known for several review shows on British television to being a very successful and respected screenwriter with his excellent Black Mirror series.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Ken Aldred

[Mr Sneeze]

49 minutes ago, Ken Aldred said:

Charlie Brooker went in the opposite direction, from being best-known for several review shows on British television to being a very successful and respected screenwriter with his excellent Black Mirror series.

That's one hell of a feather in his cap!

[Larryw7]

7 hours ago, Mr Sneeze said:

Agreed!

As someone who felt cheated of a "real" Superman 3 in 1983, I've looked at Returns as the true sequel. I prefer it to MOS too, because it respected Superman lore, and was in continuity with 1 and 2. It was a bit too cerebral and lacked action, but it made up for that with good acting and heart. Plus Pa Kent doesn't say "maybe" when Superman asks him if it was wrong to save a bus full of innocent school kids.

[Bosco685]

10 hours ago, jsilverjanet said:

How many of these new critics have studied film or have a degree in journalism

looking at some of the movies they’ve score 100s for I highly doubt they know anything about film 

It's a fair question.

[Bosco685]

I was reading some posts last night where someone called out a critic that felt horrible how much he had attacked Zack Snyder after hearing about his daughter's death. He challenges himself even why he made his reviews so personal in making them about Zack Snyder the person, rather than targeting the production. It's a long but interesting article, which I found worth reading.

A Few Words on Zack Snyder: A Time for Reflection Amongst his Critics

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I’ve made no secret of my strong dislike for Man of Steel and Batman v Superman. I saw both films has having potential, but ultimately falling short. Despite this, my criticism was vitriolic. I saw Batman v Superman at its press screening, where Snyder introduced the film, saying that he hoped we enjoyed it. It was kind of him to appear, and I wanted to, but I didn’t. My review was 5,000 words long, and I repeatedly linked my criticism of the film with Snyder personally.

 

"Snyder doesn’t seem to know how to provide context and set-up for anything, from characterization to important plot points. After being burned by Snyder twice now, I’ve lost all interest in Justice League and have no excitement for it whatsoever. I have high hopes for Suicide Squad and think that will be good, but if Warner Bros. decide to keep him around then I’m not going to let myself get hyped for it as I have done for Man of Steel and Batman v Superman. I’d much rather everything in this movie be terrible (preferably all amazing), a la the Star Wars Prequels, than be so close to greatness yet at the same time so far. It’s just frustrating, and I have no interest in going through that cycle again for a third time. I adore all of these characters, and Batman in particular means a lot to me. While I was pleased with his portrayal here, I don’t trust Snyder to deliver again."

 

My attitude towards those movies has been shared, repeatedly, amongst countless other bloggers and critics. It’s become easy to attack Snyder as lazy and borderline-evil, describing him as a man who doesn’t understand either Batman or Superman, or even the entire DC Universe. Our criticism of his films has been intertwined with a criticism of Snyder as a man. I believe that’s partly because his personal style is so apparent in his work, but also because of the aforementioned easiness in attacking Man of Steel and Batman v Superman. What harm does a joke about Snyder himself do? Before, I’ve even read tweets joking that Snyder himself should die, just to “save us” from another DC film directed by him. A simple Google search brings up this Guardian article, which, in hindsight, reads as utterly and unnecessarily vicious.

 

"While rivals Marvel go from strength to strength with their superhero movies, DC’s are being slated by critics. Why? The answer is Zack Snyder. People are starting to realize that Snyder is DC’s kryptonite. An online petition to boot him off Justice League gathered 17,000 signatures. And in May this year Warners put DC exec Geoff Johns in charge of the overall DCEU, in effect easing Snyder out of the sandbox. Going quietly does not seem to be in his nature. In fact, Snyder himself could be the perfect template for a DC super-villain: an all-powerful dictator defiling and devouring our cherished superheroes, leaving flattened cities, empty calories and crestfallen fans in his wake. Who will unite against this threat?"

 

The backlash against Zack Snyder’s work in establishing the DC Universe has been so strong, so vitriolic, so brutal, that I cannot think of a similar situation in Hollywood’s history. The closest is perhaps the anger directed at George Lucas for the Star Wars Prequels, yet that was during the infancy of the internet. Now, you can find a dozen fervent anti-Zack Snyder articles on Google in five seconds. And I can’t deny that I’ve been complicit in that.

Interesting how through this reflection, he notes how such personal attacks led to Zack Snyder feeling he had to share his daughter's situation to avoid any further nasty rumors.

Quote

Zack Snyder felt that he had to tell the world that his daughter killed herself because if he didn’t, and he dropped out of Justice League with no explanation, the entire film blogosphere would explode with speculation over how terrible the movie would be, and celebration that the “DC super-villain” had finally upped sticks. He knew that he would have to deal with even more borderline-hateful personal attacks, whilst simultaneously coping with the suicide of his daughter.

 

“I’m past caring about that kind of thing now.” The despair and hopelessness in Snyder’s voice is so abundantly apparent.

 

It would be a fatal mistake for us – fans, and critics – to not acknowledge that we carry some responsibility for Snyder’s decision to publicly declare this tragedy. In our vehement dislike of his work, we’ve convinced him that he needs to reveal this most private of tragedies to the world, because of his concern over what we would say about him otherwise. That’s our fault. In hindsight, the extent of our criticism was unequivocally unnecessary – as is perfectly summed up by the Guardian piece. In a virtual world of relative anonymity, we don’t see our words as having consequences. It’s just a joke, right? It doesn’t really matter.

A pretty mature assessment of his own approach to movie reviews. Unfortunately, probably not the norm. And in his case, this is someone with a smaller audience than some of the bigger venues and 'popular' critics.

[NewEnglandGothic]

10 hours ago, jsilverjanet said:

How many of these new critics have studied film or have a degree in journalism

looking at some of the movies they’ve score 100s for I highly doubt they know anything about film 

Growing up reading Roger Ebert's reviews for stuff was very confusing.

When "Friday The 13th" came out both critics preached about the lack of morality in films. Yet, Ebert had given that film's director a ***1/2 rating to his 1972 production "The Last House on the Left," which could be viewed as more of an "evil" movie to some and even more horrific than "Friday The 13th." You could understand what they meant by giving filmmakers a pass over their technique, like his **** star rated "Halloween" or "Natural Born Killers" in '94, but to give a blatant woman abuse movie "Kiss the Girls" a ***1/2 star rating with no skills behind the camera similar to an episode of "Criminal Minds" is mind-boggling.

Then there's the WTF ones like giving like giving "Lethal Weapon" a **** rating and during the following year giving "Die Hard" a ** rating, implying it was kind of a routine by-the-numbers action movie (it was, but it was crafted very well and I guess he missed "Action Jackson" that year.) He would then rate the sequel grab of "Lethal Weapon 2" ***1/2 and yet mind-bogglingly give the rehash "Die Hard 2," which was now a by-the-numbers actioner and a "Decathlon of Violence" as he put it ***1/2 stars. 

Those are the main popcorn movies I remember where he was all over the chart. 

[ComicConnoisseur]

13 hours ago, NewEnglandGothic said:

I might not be a fan of his recent string of films, but I feel nothing but sorrow for him and his wife.

Hopefully the Synders can produce a personal film on teen/young adult suicides to help themselves heal and build an awareness toward a tragedy that hit home and what so many families face on a day to day basis around the world.  

Agreed.

There is nothing worse that could happen to him and his wife as parents.

I have much disrespect for those critics that took those kind of shots at him.

It does show some critics will write anything for clickbait.

 

 

[Bosco685]

22 minutes ago, NewEnglandGothic said:

Growing up reading Roger Ebert's reviews for stuff was very confusing.

When "Friday The 13th" came out both critics preached about the lack of morality in films. Yet, Ebert had given that film's director a ***1/2 rating to his 1972 production "The Last House on the Left," which could be viewed as more of an "evil" movie to some and even more horrific than "Friday The 13th." You could understand what they meant by giving filmmakers a pass over their technique, like his **** star rated "Halloween" or "Natural Born Killers" in '94, but to give a blatant woman abuse movie "Kiss the Girls" a ***1/2 star rating with no skills behind the camera similar to an episode of "Criminal Minds" is mind-boggling.

Then there's the WTF ones like giving like giving "Lethal Weapon" a **** rating and during the following year giving "Die Hard" a ** rating, implying it was kind of a routine by-the-numbers action movie (it was, but it was crafted very well and I guess he missed "Action Jackson" that year.) He would then rate the sequel grab of "Lethal Weapon 2" ***1/2 and yet mind-bogglingly give the rehash "Die Hard 2," which was now a by-the-numbers actioner and a "Decathlon of Violence" as he put it ***1/2 stars. 

Those are the main popcorn movies I remember where he was all over the chart. 

There is consistency of content, and then there is making it into regular personal attacks on creators. So were there regular attacks from them on directors they didn't care for? Including jokes about dead mothers, or wishing they take a bullet to the head so as not to see more of their movies. I don't remember them doing this.

Example: Tim Burton's 'Mars Attacks'. A favorite of mine. One liked it, the other didn't. But it doesn't turn into "Tim Burton's mother must run when he comes home" or "Burton so hates humans over his love of aliens and the weird, why not put a bullet in his head and join them?"

Or something like 'Men In Black'. Another favorite. They both enjoyed the movie, though point out it is not perfect. Sure, they refer back to 'Mars Attacks' briefly. But it doesn't turn into a rehash of any hate, noting "Remember that movie with that fellow that hates humans and loves weird and alien creatures?" One reminds viewers he liked it, and the other he disliked 'Mars Attacks'.

That's where the critic methodology doesn't overstep its purpose, unlike what you pointed out earlier in giving out someone's personal address so people can carpet bomb them with hate mail.

[Bosco685]

Here are some examples Roger Ebert pulled on his own of most hated films.

Ebert's Most Hated

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EDITOR'S NOTE: Sometimes, Roger Ebert is exposed to bad movies. When that happens, it is his duty -- if not necessarily his pleasure -- to report them (fairly, accurately) as he sees them. Whether they're so bad they're funny, so bad they're not funny, or so unfunny they're not funny, he must critique them. From bad Elvis to Deuce Bigalow, these are excerpts from reviews of some of the worst movies he's ever seen. (Click on the titles for the full reviews.) It's not just their measly ratings -- from zero to 1.5 stars -- but what Ebert has to say about them that really conveys their true awfulness.

 

Quote

"Joe Dirt"

We professional movie critics count it a banner week when only one movie involves eating, falling into or being covered by excrement (or a cameo appearance by Carson Daly). We are not prudes. We are prepared to laugh. But what these movies, including "Joe Dirt," often do not understand is that the act of being buried in is not in and of itself funny.

"North"

I hated this movie. Hated hated hated hated hated this movie. Hated it. Hated every simpering stupid vacant audience-insulting moment of it. Hated the sensibility that thought anyone would like it. Hated the implied insult to the audience by its belief that anyone would be entertained by it.

"The Hot Chick"

The movie resolutely avoids all the comic possibilities of its situation, and becomes one more dumb high school comedy about sex gags and prom dates.... Through superhuman effort of the will, I did not walk out of "The Hot Chick," but reader, I confess I could not sit through the credits. The MPAA rates this PG-13. It is too vulgar for anyone under 13, and too dumb for anyone over 13.

"Deuce Bigalow: European Gigolo"

"Deuce Bigalow: European Gigolo" makes a living prostituting himself. How much he charges I'm not sure, but the price is worth it if it keeps him off the streets and out of another movie. "Deuce Bigalow" is aggressively bad, as if it wants to cause suffering to the audience. The best thing about it is that it runs for only 75 minutes.... Speaking in my official capacity as a Pulitzer Prize winner, Mr. Schneider, your movie sucks.

"Catwoman"

She becomes Catwoman, but what is a catwoman? She can leap like a cat, strut around on top of her furniture, survive great falls and hiss. Berry looks great doing these things, and spends a lot of time on all fours, inspiring our almost unseemly gratitude for her cleavage. She gobbles down tuna and sushi. Her eyes have vertical pupils instead of round ones. She sleeps on a shelf. The movie doesn't get into the litter box situation. What does she think about all of this?

"Battlefield Earth"

Hiring Travolta and Whitaker was a waste of money, since we can't recognize them behind pounds of matted hair and gnarly makeup. Their costumes look like they were purchased from the Goodwill store on the planet Tatooine. Travolta can be charming, funny, touching and brave in his best roles; why disguise him as a smelly alien creep? The Psychlos can fly between galaxies, but look at their nails: Their civilization has mastered the hyperdrive but not the manicure.

The closest he comes to a personal attack is calling out to Rob Schneider Deuce Bigalow sucked as a movie. But it doesn't degrade down to Schneider having family issues, mental problems or serving the world best at the business-end of a gun.

That's where modern 'professional critics' may have missed the boat. Taking it so far to get clicks online, they will go for the eye-opening statements to pull in more readers.