BLACK WIDOW: THE MOVIE (TBD) 4 4

[TupennyConan]

On 7/21/2021 at 7:24 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

It's poor writing.

A moralist could make a convincing argument it is dangerous writing. 

[Bosco685]

On 7/21/2021 at 7:22 AM, Gatsby77 said:

Umm... Just because people on social media are stupid doesn't mean the show (and especially, the finale) wasn't crystal clear.

There's no way you can watch all of WandaVision and not come away with the fact that's she's:

1) a villain who enslaved an entire town for weeks just to selfishly "process her grief" and

2) one of the most powerful folks in the entire MCU.

To say nothing of Agatha's being right. It was her destiny to become the keeper of the Darkhold - the Scarlet Witch.

People thought the ending of Inception was ambiguous, too. Just shows that either 1) they're insufficiently_thoughtful_persons, or 2) they weren't paying attention.

Umm...are we playing that condescending game again? You are too funny when someone sees things different from your assumed rightness.

These hardcore fans of Wanda that felt like she was finally getting the attention and positive light she deserved never stated 'villain' as the goal or appearance. It was that we were finally going to get the true Scarlet Witch hero they deserved.

Even when it came down to Endgame with Wanda conveying she was even more powerful than Captain Marvel in her direct battle with Thanos, 'hero' was always top of mind. Not villain. And that WandaVision had now proven through its content she had suffered so much, no matter what she should be held up as an MCU powerhouse hero.

Now back to your local edition of 'Ummm' in the Morning. Gatsby...tell us what the weather is like today. 

[Gatsby77]

On 7/21/2021 at 7:55 AM, Bosco685 said:

Umm...are we playing that condescending game again? You are too funny when someone sees things different from your assumed rightness.

These hardcore fans of Wanda that felt like she was finally getting the attention and positive light she deserved never stated 'villain' as the goal or appearance. It was that we were finally going to get the true Scarlet Witch hero they deserved.

Even when it came down to Endgame with Wanda conveying she was even more powerful than Captain Marvel in her direct battle with Thanos, 'hero' was always top of mind. Not villain. And that WandaVision had now proven through its content she had suffered so much, no matter what she should be held up as an MCU powerhouse hero.

Now back to your local edition of 'Ummm' in the Morning. Gatsby...tell us what the weather is like today. 

So your criticism here isn't that the show's conclusion isn't clear, but that fans' desire and expectation for the show was that we'd see Wanda come into her own as a superhero? And are miffed because she's now been positioned more as a villain - or at least a morally grey character?

That's not an MCU or a show problem. That's an "OMG - The Last Jedi didn't match my head canon" problem.

It's also disingenuous. Throughout the show's run, in this very thread, the bulk of the fan criticism wasn't about Wanda's character, but rather that to be more interesting there *had* to be a different villain behind it all (Mephisto, Higher Evolutionary, etc.). And folks were pizzed when that didn't happen.

I thought it was brilliant.

The whole point of House of M in the comics was to show:

a) Wanda's one of the most powerful heroes in the Marvel universe; and

2) she's bat-sh*t crazy.

While WandaVision didn't follow that storyline, it accurately portrayed both of those points - running absolutely true to her character in the comics.

[Bosco685]

On 7/21/2021 at 8:47 AM, Gatsby77 said:

So your criticism here isn't that the show's conclusion isn't clear, but that fans' desire and expectation for the show was that we'd see Wanda come into her own as a superhero? And are miffed because she's now been positioned more as a villain - or at least a morally grey character?

That's not an MCU or a show problem. That's an "OMG - The Last Jedi didn't match my head canon" problem.

It's also disingenuous. Throughout the show's run, in this very thread, the bulk of the fan criticism wasn't about Wanda's character, but rather that to be more interesting there *had* to be a different villain behind it all (Mephisto, Higher Evolutionary, etc.). And folks were pizzed when that didn't happen.

I thought it was brilliant.

The whole point of House of M in the comics was to show:

a) Wanda's one of the most powerful heroes in the Marvel universe; and

2) she's bat-sh*t crazy.

While WandaVision didn't follow that storyline, it accurately portrayed both of those points - running absolutely true to her character in the comics.

You really don't take a moment to reflect and read completely, do you?

First the show makes it clear it was her pain and suffering that led to making these people become her distractions.

Then, the show even made her out as a hero in the end when she defeats Agnes and 'overcame' her pain to progress forward as the Scarlet Witch.

She transitions into the Scarlet Witch finally with all the majesty and intensity to note our hero had arrived. OH JOY!

Disingenuous? Yes, on the part of the show and the direction this took. You should leave those concepts and big words for more sensible individuals. Along with your other fallback - Occam's razor. So cool when you toss that one out there too.

[Bosco685]

WANDA: "I'm sorry for all the pain I caused."

MONICA: "I know"

WANDA: "I don't understand this power. But I will!"

WANDA: "Goodbye Monica!" 

MONICA: "Bye Wanda!" 

Does that feel like a villain sendoff or a departure between two heroes seeing each other off?

Come on! Disingenuous for sure to the events that occurred throughout the show.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Monica is easily one of the worst "heroes" if she lets a WMD just fly away. Iron Man should've just let Thanos complete his mission, because he witnessed the destruction of his home world, eh?

WandaVision is F'ed because, although they write her to be a villain, they don't convey that she is the villain. She's the protagonist of the show, absolutely (and that makes sense), but the story is written to make everyone else look morally bad (including the 'villain' Agnes). All of the previous characters like Woo and Darcy act like the SWORD guy (forgot his name) is bad. Follow Wanda's grief and make her compelling, good, but show the audience that she is bad and what she is doing is bad!

WandaVision failed on too many levels.

[Bosco685]

On 7/21/2021 at 9:48 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Monica is easily one of the worst "heroes" if she lets a WMD just fly away. Iron Man should've just let Thanos complete his mission, because he witnessed the destruction of his home world, eh?

WandaVision is F'ed because, although they write her to be a villain, they don't convey that she is the villain. She's the protagonist of the show, absolutely (and that makes sense), but the story is written to make everyone else look morally bad (including the 'villain' Agnes). All of the previous characters like Woo and Darcy act like the SWORD guy (forgot his name) is bad. Follow Wanda's grief and make her compelling, good, but show the audience that she is bad and what she is doing is bad!

WandaVision failed on too many levels.

How disingenuous of you to post this. You're just mad because two powerful female characters had an exchange on the screen between them in a friendly way.

It couldn't be the show story itself. You hater!

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/21/2021 at 9:57 AM, Bosco685 said:

How disingenuous of you to post this. You're just mad because two powerful female characters had an exchange on the screen between them in a friendly way.

Catfights only!

[Bosco685]

On 7/21/2021 at 10:00 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Catfights only!

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/21/2021 at 10:03 AM, Bosco685 said:

Tough to have a female hero moment that I will care about when the only good Marvel heroes IMO come from the FF and X-Men titles. Wasp is easily the MCU's best female hero for me.

[drotto]

On 7/21/2021 at 7:24 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Let's be honest: WandaVision does its best to make you think that Maximoff is a hero. They go so far as to show you that Rambeau 'understands' her decisions, and lets her go free. They convince you that Agatha is the villain.

Without question, Scarlet Witch is a villain. WandaVision does not concisely convey this to the audience. It's poor writing.

It is part of the popular and getting very played out trend of making sympathetic and relatable villains.  Nobody can be just evil at this point we must understand why they are evil.  Disney has played this card recently, and repeatedly.  In Maleficent, they do they same thing, she was not evil anymore, but may have been justified in her actions.  In Cruella they took a woman that all she wanted to do was kill PUPPIES, and tried to make us understand why.  They did it again in Falcon and Winter soldier, we are manipulated to think the villain may be right.  To a lessor extent they do it again in Loki, because we are given the "nicest" version of Kang. Heck not Disney, but you can even argue that this was done to an extent in Joker ( I would argue here it was done well and that was a great film).

 

It is starting to lead to weaker villains and heroes because there is no right or wrong only shades of grey.  So the same thing plays out again in WandaVision.  Disney seem reluctant to take a hero and make her bad, so they go out of their way to justify what she did, and than basically excuse it. In WandaVision they take it even further by giving us such a stupid and over the top villain, with no clear motivations, to soften the blow about Wanda even more.  Remember Wanda in the comic became a villain to the point where the Avengers debated executing her because she may be too dangerous to exist.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/21/2021 at 10:55 AM, drotto said:

...you can even argue that this was done to an extent in Joker ( I would argue here it was done well and that was a great film).

The try to get you to empathize with Joker, but his visceral murders tell the audience that there is no way he's anything but a villain. Joker has no remorse.

Thanos was written extremely well, despite the fact that I wish he was still simply simping for Lady Death. As you mentioned, this is becoming an overused trope. It makes me long even more for Darkseid. Some of the best villains ever are pure evil, at least seemingly for a time (Palpatine, Vader, even Thanos was evil in Endgame).

[D84]

On 7/21/2021 at 6:02 AM, Gatsby77 said:

I mean, it's not like she raped a random guy who was unknowingly possessed by her long-lost dead lover or anything, but still...

You say that like it's a bad thing...

 

[drotto]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:01 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

The try to get you to empathize with Joker, but his visceral murders tell the audience that there is no way he's anything but a villain. Joker has no remorse.

Thanos was written extremely well, despite the fact that I wish he was still simply simping for Lady Death. As you mentioned, this is becoming an overused trope. It makes me long even more for Darkseid. Some of the best villains ever are pure evil, at least seemingly for a time (Palpatine, Vader, even Thanos was evil in Endgame).

I would also say X-Men: First Class does this well with Magneto.  You understand who he is. They tease you the whole movie that he can be redeemed. He may be a good man.

 

Then he drives that coin through Shaw's head and turns on Xavier, and you know he is evil.

Edited July 21, 2021 by drotto

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:05 AM, D84 said:

You say that like it's a bad thing...

This begs the question: Is it "rape" if the current mental state of the body is consenting?

Don't get me wrong, the writing of that is awful for a Wonder Woman/comic book movie, but the moral dilemma is more complex.

[Gatsby77]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:10 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

This begs the question: Is it "rape" if the current mental state of the body is consenting?

Well, statutory rape is still rape, even if both participants are willing. So...yes.

Because underage folks definitionally can't consent - arguably, neither can random guys possessed by the ghost of Steve Trevor.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:36 AM, Gatsby77 said:

Well, statutory rape is still rape, even if both participants are willing. So...yes.

Because underage folks definitionally can't consent - arguably, neither can random guys possessed by the ghost of Steve Trevor.

If someone is in an altered state of mind, they're in current control of the body. Think: Multiple personalities, willingly consuming mind-altering drugs, etc.

If I came back as a ghost and expected to govern the body I possessed until the body died, then I'm not sure that it's cut-and-dry.

[drotto]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:36 AM, Gatsby77 said:

Well, statutory rape is still rape, even if both participants are willing. So...yes.

Because underage folks definitionally can't consent - arguably, neither can random guys possessed by the ghost of Steve Trevor.

It is also established that a person in an altered state, like high, drunk or drugged can not give concent.   If concent it not given (remember altered state), it is by definition rape.

 

The biggest issue here was the hero and movie never acknowledged how this could be interpreted, and play it off as a loving moment.   I am convinced it never crossed their minds, but not sure how it could not.

[Bosco685]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:36 AM, Gatsby77 said:

Well, statutory rape is still rape, even if both participants are willing. So...yes.

Because underage folks definitionally can't consent - arguably, neither can random guys possessed by the ghost of Steve Trevor.

Capra hit the nail on the head with Wonder Woman 2

On 7/21/2021 at 11:39 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

If someone is in an altered state of mind, they're in current control of the body. Think: Multiple personalities, willingly consuming mind-altering drugs, etc.

If I came back as a ghost and expected to govern the body I possessed until the body died, then I'm not sure that it's cut-and-dry.

I think this is where the story in WW2 did a very poor job of conveying in the end what took place:

1) You had a magical artifact that would grant wishes to provide someone their greatest desires

2) With this magic they would be so captivated by achieving their desire they would ignore the detractors from this - and in this someone else's body being used to house Steve Trevor's soul

3) Diana breaking from this spell finally to be the hero she is was her biggest sacrifice in the story

The -script did not bring this to a head cleanly to close the books on what took place. You had to assume certain aspects of the story were understood.

[paperheart]

WW2 was released? missed that.