What's up with Rob Liefeld? No CGC? 4 4

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, jcjames said:

It's the collector who became educated as to carefully inspecting, selecting, handling, (maybe even pressing), storing, transporting and shipping books that were highe-grade candidates to get them signed by Liefeld and who also bore the cost of getting them graded and who also bore the risk of having the book damaged or downgraded throughout the entire process.

And here's the kicker to the whole argument: even if every single signature added a ton of value...even if every single person seeking a signature on a comic was because they intended to slab it and attempt to sell it...it's still no one's business but the owner of that book.

Yes, the very real facts that 1. very few signatures actually add value beyond the cost of obtaining it; 2. not every person in line intends to slab (those people actually make up maybe 10-25% of any given convention line); 3. of the people who do intend to slab, not all of them intend to sell; and 4. the vast majority of the value of any slabbed book is in its condition...will help creators understand that, no, no one's cheating you, no, not everyone slabbing is doing it to "profit off of you."

But in the end, the bottom line is that it's no one's business what you intend to do with YOUR property, and other people making decisions about you based on that are simply counting your money, which they have absolutely no business doing. 

Roofer: "What do you intend to do with this house...?" None of your business.

Plumber: "What do you intend to do with this toilet...?" None of your business.

Barista: "What do you intend to do with this latte...?" None of your business.

Cashier: "What do you intend to do with this ladder...?" None of your business.

Car salesman: "What do you intend to do with this car...?" None of your business.

Comic book retailer: "What do you intend to do with this comic book...?" None of your business.

Advertising agency: "What do you intend to do with this ad campaign we created for you...?" None of your business.

Creator: "What do you intend to do with this signature...?" None of your business.

Sign, don't sign, charge, don't charge, it's completely within your right to control your signature in any way you deem fit. If you want to charge $10,000 for your signature, because you think it's worth that, or you don't want anyone to possibly make even a cent off of it, knock yourself out. There's nothing and no one stopping you. People will decide if it's worth it or not, and if it's not, they'll move on. No fuss, no muss. No one "upset" about their "bottom line."

But asking people what they intend to do with THEIR property, whose acquisition, upkeep, preparation, submission, and attendant risk throughout all of that you had absolutely ZERO hand in...and then worse, demanding MORE MONEY from some of those people based on an answer that is none of your business in the first place...is discriminatory, obnoxious, and rude. And these people have tolerated it because they're addicts. But toleration is not justification.

What a creator might make at their craft is none of my business. It would be beyond rude if I walked up to a creator and said "how much money did you make last year?" and then tell them whether their sig fee was too much based on the answer, and demand a lower cost. 

Creators have complained for decades that they were being taken advantage of...and in some cases, that was certainly true. Why, then, are they turning around and taking advantage of THEIR customers, exploiting their addict behavior...?

Don't count my money, and I won't count yours.

Edited March 11, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[jcjames]

20 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

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Don't count my money, and I won't count yours.

Bam.

Should wear that on a T-shirt when getting sigs.  

I wonder if artists would get upset if cons paid them differently depending on whether the artist charges fans differential sig-prices?

Cons: "Oh, you're charging fans different prices for the same signatures? Well then we're going to pay you less than artists who have a flat sig-fee because, you know... you're making more fat-cash off the fans."

Edited March 11, 2018 by jcjames

[RockMyAmadeus]

Can you imagine the uproar...?

[RockMyAmadeus]

[RockMyAmadeus]

Ladies and gentlemen: Exhibit A.

[NoMan]

RMA:

Somewhere in this thread not to far back (can't find it now, have a lot of catching up reading to do in this thread ) you mentioned spending 3k at a Clairmont signing and I apologize in advance if my lack of knowledge misconstrues what you said/mean, but  Umm, is it a bad scene to get his signature? I was thinking of getting an old xmen signed by him just for the experience of meeting him. No CGC ss witness thing, just a sig. Does he charge an arm and leg for just this. Again, sorry if misunderstand what you said

[RockMyAmadeus]

9 minutes ago, NoMan said:

RMA:

Somewhere in this thread not to far back (can't find it now, have a lot of catching up reading to do in this thread ) you mentioned spending 3k at a Clairmont signing and I apologize in advance if my lack of knowledge misconstrues what you said/mean, but  Umm, is it a bad scene to get his signature? I was thinking of getting an old xmen signed by him just for the experience of meeting him. No CGC ss witness thing, just a sig. Does he charge an arm and leg for just this. Again, sorry if misunderstand what you said

Not at all. It's a piece of cake. Claremont is a kick in the pants to talk to, and I only wish I was more gregarious and quick on my feet. I write because I'm not quick on the uptake. This was at NYCC in October, and he charged $5 for "raw." 

[NoMan]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Not at all. It's a piece of cake. Claremont is a kick in the pants to talk to, and I only wish I was more gregarious and quick on my feet. I write because I'm not quick on the uptake. This was at NYCC in October, and he charged $5 for "raw." 

Thanks for the heads up. Then I will continue my plans to get his sig based on this. Again, thank you for taking the time to respond.

It's a good sign (to me) when someone publicly admits to not being "quick on my feet." It tells me a lot about a person. 

As I read this thread, I bet this signing phenomenon (comic, sports, celebrity) and reselling thing and the problems that have arisen would make an interesting film documentary. 

[Ryan.]

1 minute ago, NoMan said:

As I read this thread, I bet this signing phenomenon (comic, sports, celebrity) and reselling thing and the problems that have arisen would make an interesting film documentary. 

I won't be tuning in.

[NoMan]

Just now, Ryan. said:

I won't be tuning in.

I hear ya. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

10 minutes ago, NoMan said:

 

It's a good sign (to me) when someone publicly admits to not being "quick on my feet." It tells me a lot about a person. 

 

I always think of the best comebacks 20 minutes after the argument is over.  

Yes, my experience...aside from the CGC punishment fee...with Claremont was an absolute delight. We got over 300 books signed over two days, raw and for slabbing, and it was easy as pie. We did most of it before the artist room opened up, which we arranged with Claremont and his quite beautiful assistant.

No fuss, no muss, no one got shafted, no one felt like someone was "hogging the line"...in and out, like a ghost. The same can't be said for some other facilitators and witnesses.

But yes, getting the chance to hang out with Chris Claremont and listen to his stories for an hour or two...even if I was paying him for the privilege...was a total thrill.

Edited March 11, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[NoMan]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I always think of the best comebacks 20 minutes after the argument is over.  

Yes, my experience...aside from the CGC punishment fee...with Claremont was an absolute delight. We got over 300 books signed over two days, raw and for slabbing, and it was easy as pie. We did most of it before the artist room opened up, which we arranged with Claremont and his quite beautiful assistant.

No fuss, no muss, no one got shafted, no one felt like someone was "hogging the line"...in and out, like a ghost. The same can't be said for some other facilitators and witnesses.

But yes, getting the chance to hang out with Chris Claremont and listen to his stories for an hour or two...even if I was paying him for the privilege...was a total thrill.

Damn, if I knew I would have offered to be you're intern/assistant for free. I already got a career and like you said, sounds like a blast

[Logan510]

[Drbearsec]

4 hours ago, jcjames said:

The false belief that a creator's signature automatically adds value to a book has been disproven time and time again.

Specifically for Liefeld - compare probably his most famous and significant book: NM98.

Liefeld's signature adds NOTHING to the value of his greatest book below 9.2 grade.

At 9.0, a SS NM98 9.0 sells for the same as a non-SS NM98 9.0. (same with non-uberHG raws but that's not relevant)

So where is the value added of a Liefeld signature? It's in the GRADE. No high grade = no value added from Liefeld's signature.

And who is responsible for that high-grade? Is it Liefeld? No.

It's the collector who became educated as to carefully inspecting, selecting, handling, (maybe even pressing), storing, transporting and shipping books that were highe-grade candidates to get them signed by Liefeld and who also bore the cost of getting them graded and who also bore the risk of having the book damaged or downgraded throughout the entire process.

 

 

What you say is true but there are signatures that do add almost universally to book values.  Stan Lee, Frank Miller are two examples right off the top.  Grade is always king though for sure.

[RockMyAmadeus]

14 minutes ago, Drbearsec said:

What you say is true but there are signatures that do add almost universally to book values.  Stan Lee, Frank Miller are two examples right off the top.  Grade is always king though for sure.

So, the people who paid $600 for the Miller signatures from early 2016...did those signatures add value?

Stan Lee's signing fee, as of the last time he signed (Phx in Jan, that I know of) was $130. When you add in the cost to slab....typically about $40, depending on shipping...and the selling fees...about 10-13%...and you must sell a Stan Lee CGC SS book for $200 to break even.

There are currently about 730 slabs sold that are AT or BELOW cost...most below...meaning those signatures added nothing to the value of the book, regardless of the grade it was in.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=stan+lee+cgc+signed+-it+-ready&_sop=15&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xstan+lee+cgc+signed+-it+-ready+-worthy.TRS0&_nkw=stan+lee+cgc+signed+-it+-ready+-worthy&_sacat=0

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

So, the people who paid $600 for the Miller signatures from early 2016...did those signatures add value?

Stan Lee's signing fee, as of the last time he signed (Phx in Jan, that I know of) was $130. When you add in the cost to slab....typically about $40, depending on shipping...and the selling fees...about 10-13%...and you must sell a Stan Lee CGC SS book for $200 to break even.

There are currently about 730 slabs sold that are AT or BELOW cost...most below...meaning those signatures added nothing to the value of the book, regardless of the grade it was in.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=stan+lee+cgc+signed+-it+-ready&_sop=15&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xstan+lee+cgc+signed+-it+-ready+-worthy.TRS0&_nkw=stan+lee+cgc+signed+-it+-ready+-worthy&_sacat=0

Also...Stan didn't charge a CGC punishment fee. His price was the same, regardless of where the item was going, for everything.

For that, I give Max credit.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Also....I got two books signed by Miller in 2016. I paid $350 each, which was "the special dealer price" at that time. Go me.

I lucked out. Both books I got signed...Dark Knight #1 and DD #168...came back 9.8. Super luck out on the DD #168, as it was a 9.7, maybe 9.65 at best (yes, those aren't "real grades", they're just there for understanding's sake.)

So, it certainly worked out for me, but ONLY because I had books that were worth the cost.

But a DD #168 signed by Miller in 9.2 just sold for $345. That means, if the seller had paid that $350 dealer price....plus Stan's fee....they would have lost a couple hundred bucks in the process. Losing money, of course, isn't how it works.

Of course, the seller had an inside track on getting these sigs at a far, far, farrrrr lower price than the masses...and hey, more power to 'em...but it's not something the average Joe can do.

Every asset, no matter how in demand, becomes a losing proposition at a high enough price.

[Drbearsec]

18 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

So, the people who paid $600 for the Miller signatures from early 2016...did those signatures add value?

Stan Lee's signing fee, as of the last time he signed (Phx in Jan, that I know of) was $130. When you add in the cost to slab....typically about $40, depending on shipping...and the selling fees...about 10-13%...and you must sell a Stan Lee CGC SS book for $200 to break even.

There are currently about 730 slabs sold that are AT or BELOW cost...most below...meaning those signatures added nothing to the value of the book, regardless of the grade it was in.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=stan+lee+cgc+signed+-it+-ready&_sop=15&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xstan+lee+cgc+signed+-it+-ready+-worthy.TRS0&_nkw=stan+lee+cgc+signed+-it+-ready+-worthy&_sacat=0

Hence the word almost.   I was simply disagreeing with the previous poster that it was an incorrect belief in all circumstances, but then I realized I misread his original intent.

 

I enjoyed the points you made Earlier.  I don’t disagree with you.  Unfortunately, until most people are willing to not pay it much like fees with Ticket Master, charging more for 3D movies, Paying higher fees for Disney World etc, we are going to keep seeing them.  It’s a bit sad, but as you said, we are addicts.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Drbearsec

[Drbearsec]

25 minutes ago, DoYouGiveCrybabiesCandy said:

Ladies and gentlemen, Echh-ibit A!

 

Time to grow up... not make fake accounts to attack or troll people especially when you acknowledge who you are.

[RockMyAmadeus]

15 minutes ago, Drbearsec said:

Hence the word almost.   I was simply disagreeing with the previous poster that it was an incorrect belief in all circumstances, but then I realized I misread his original intent.

Not sure if your response was intended to be hostile, but it kind of reads that way.  I don’t really care, but just pointing out that the answer came off a little more aggressive than you probably meant for it too.  

Nope. Only hostile if you read it that way. 

15 minutes ago, Drbearsec said:

Other than that, I enjoyed the points you made Earlier.  I don’t disagree with you.  Unfortunately, until most people are willing to not pay it much like fees with Ticket Master, charging more for 3D movies, Paying higher fees for Disney World etc, we are going to keep seeing them.  It’s a bit sad, but as you said, we are addicts.

But higher prices for special features isn't the issue. That price is charged to everyone who wants to go through TM, or see a 3D movie, or go to Disney World. 

But with this issue, certain people are being punished with higher prices, while others aren't.

No one is complaining that prices are too high. You suck it up, do the math, and figure out if it works for you. If it does, fine, if it doesn't, you move on to something else.

But if Creator Dave is willing to sign Fred Flintstone's copy of Raggedy Ann #372 for $5, there's no reason why he shouldn't be willing to sign my copy for the same price.

Edited March 11, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus