Art Prices 3 3

[Panelfan1]

so with the discussion being all very deep - I thought I would try and sum it up as a math equation.

where C = Character, A = Artist, N = Nostalgia, P = Popularity and V =Value

CA+NP = V

now - to do math -each needs a value - so if we say a value from 0.1-10 with 0.1 being low and 10 being high.

as an example

character = samurai santa   (0.1 out of 10 since we don't have zero as a choice)

A = Jim Lee (9.5 out of 10 -since he's a meagastar)

N = 0.1 (since again, don't have zero to choose from)

p = 0.1

Value = 0.1x10+0.1x0.1

value =0.11

now 0.11 is kind of a weird value - so to get a $ value, you would need to calculate this for a lot of art, then figure out the median price and extrapolate.. etc.. (example if median price for a comic page is $100 - then a samurai santa page would be worth $11)

if we tried this out with something popular like Batman hush

A = Jim Lee (9.5 out of 10)

C = Batman (10 out of 10 - is there a more popular character in comics?)

N = key story collected by a lot of folks and still a big hit in trade (8 out of 10)

P = 9

V =9.5x10+8x9

value =167

so between the 2  examples - its clear batman hush - is worth more than 1500 times the samurai santa

feel free to destroy my attempted art math. no hard feelings if you do.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Panelfan1

[mister_not_so_nice]

15 minutes ago, Panelfan1 said:

 

Value = 0.1x10+0.1x0.1

value =0.11

 

1.01  

[MarvelComicsArt]

34 minutes ago, Panelfan1 said:

so with the discussion being all very deep - I thought I would try and sum it up as a math equation.

where C = Character, A = Artist, N = Nostalgia, P = Popularity and V =Value

CA+NP = V

now - to do math -each needs a value - so if we say a value from 0.1-10 with 1 being low and 10 being high.

as an example

character = samurai santa   (0.1 out of 10 since we don't have zero as a choice)

A = Jim Lee (9.5 out of 10 -since he's a meagastar)

N = 0.1 (since again, don't have zero to choose from)

p = 0.1

Value = 0.1x10+0.1x0.1

value =0.11

now 0.11 is kind of a weird value - so to get a $ value, you would need to calculate this for a lot of art, then figure out the median price and extrapolate.. etc.. (example if median price for a comic page is $100 - then a samurai santa page would be worth $11)

if we tried this out with something popular like Batman hush

A = Jim Lee (9.5 out of 10)

C = Batman (10 out of 10 - is there a more popular character in comics?)

N = key story collected by a lot of folks and still a big hit in trade (8 out of 10)

P = 9

V =9.5x10+8x9

value =167

so between the 2  examples - its clear batman hush - is worth more than 1500 times the samurai santa

feel free to destroy my attempted art math. no hard feelings if you do.

Just a fun fact that has nothing to do with the mathematical equation.... ( yes a totally useless fact but a fun one)

The DC/Marvel artist Rich Buckler was the first person to take a chance on Jim Lee when he hired him to do Samurai Santa , published by Solson publications

based out of Brooklyn New York.

This was when Rich became 1/3 partner of the corporation Solson Publications during the mid 1980's.  And Rich always had a knack for finding young talent . 

George Perez was one of Rich's assistants in the 70's. And so was Denys Cowan ( who later returned the favor when he was publishing Milestone under DC comics . He brought Rich Buckler in to do pencils on Hardware ( Milestones african american version of Tony Stark/Iron Man) - Another useless note Milestone characters are all making a comeback sometime this year.

Rich also published his own how to draw manual during the same time in the mid 1980's under Solson ( this was at the time when he was drawing a few issues of spiderman).

After being blacklisted from Marvel due to an incident with Al Milgrom ( i won't go into it) , he was hired by Neal Adams ( the godfather to his son  ) at Continuity Studios doing primarily advertising work.

Until returning back to comics duty on Mr.T and the T FORCE  ( replacing Norm Breyfogle at now comics ). As well as the run on Hardware in the early 1990's

( sorry had to get all that out--- old age memories- ahhh head feels much better now. lighter)

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by MarvelComicsArt

[jjonahjameson11]

5 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

so with the discussion being all very deep - I thought I would try and sum it up as a math equation.

where C = Character, A = Artist, N = Nostalgia, P = Popularity and V =Value

CA+NP = V

now - to do math -each needs a value - so if we say a value from 0.1-10 with 0.1 being low and 10 being high.

as an example

character = samurai santa   (0.1 out of 10 since we don't have zero as a choice)

A = Jim Lee (9.5 out of 10 -since he's a meagastar)

N = 0.1 (since again, don't have zero to choose from)

p = 0.1

Value = 0.1x10+0.1x0.1

value =0.11

now 0.11 is kind of a weird value - so to get a $ value, you would need to calculate this for a lot of art, then figure out the median price and extrapolate.. etc.. (example if median price for a comic page is $100 - then a samurai santa page would be worth $11)

if we tried this out with something popular like Batman hush

A = Jim Lee (9.5 out of 10)

C = Batman (10 out of 10 - is there a more popular character in comics?)

N = key story collected by a lot of folks and still a big hit in trade (8 out of 10)

P = 9

V =9.5x10+8x9

value =167

so between the 2  examples - its clear batman hush - is worth more than 1500 times the samurai santa

feel free to destroy my attempted art math. no hard feelings if you do.

Math?  We're actually doing math in a comics thread now?

That's it!  This thread has officially 'jumped the shark'!

[MyNameIsLegion]

5 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

so with the discussion being all very deep - I thought I would try and sum it up as a math equation.

where C = Character, A = Artist, N = Nostalgia, P = Popularity and V =Value

CA+NP = V

now - to do math -each needs a value - so if we say a value from 0.1-10 with 0.1 being low and 10 being high.

as an example

character = samurai santa   (0.1 out of 10 since we don't have zero as a choice)

A = Jim Lee (9.5 out of 10 -since he's a meagastar)

N = 0.1 (since again, don't have zero to choose from)

p = 0.1

Value = 0.1x10+0.1x0.1

value =0.11

now 0.11 is kind of a weird value - so to get a $ value, you would need to calculate this for a lot of art, then figure out the median price and extrapolate.. etc.. (example if median price for a comic page is $100 - then a samurai santa page would be worth $11)

if we tried this out with something popular like Batman hush

A = Jim Lee (9.5 out of 10)

C = Batman (10 out of 10 - is there a more popular character in comics?)

N = key story collected by a lot of folks and still a big hit in trade (8 out of 10)

P = 9

V =9.5x10+8x9

value =167

so between the 2  examples - its clear batman hush - is worth more than 1500 times the samurai santa

feel free to destroy my attempted art math. no hard feelings if you do.

an admirable effort to quantify, but yes, you're math is off for the Santa Samurai and Mr. NsN has pointed out. (1.01)

but I think you are missing one important element to the equation: you aren't accounting for what kinds of art it is: (Published- panel page, slash page, spread, cover) or non-published (commission, sketch, napkin doodle)  You need to factor the type of art in.

 

where C = Character, A = Artist, N = Nostalgia, P = Popularity and V =Value; For Value, value is impacted by Pub= Published, Nun = Non Published  and ART TYPE.  Art type needs to be weighted somehow ( panel page is x1, splash is x5, Cover is x10 etc.) as does Published (perhaps multiplied by 1 for published and .5 or .3 for non published. )

{(Character x Artist) + (Nostalgia x Popularity) x Art Type)} x Published = Value

Edited March 22, 2018 by MYNAMEISLEGION
because- math.

[MyNameIsLegion]

where C = Character, A = Artist, N = Nostalgia, P = Popularity and V =Value; For Value, value is impacted by Pub= Published, Nun = Non Published  and ART TYPE.  Art type needs to be weighted somehow ( panel page is x1, splash is x5, Cover is x10 etc.) as does Published (perhaps multiplied by 1 for published and .5 or .3 for non published. )

{(Character x Artist) + (Nostalgia x Popularity) x Art Type)} xPublished = Value

Jim Lee Batman Hush panel page

A = Jim Lee (9.5 out of 10)

C = Batman (10 out of 10 - is there a more popular character in comics?)

N = key story collected by a lot of folks and still a big hit in trade (8 out of 10)

P = 9

Jim Lee Batman Hush panel page

[[(9.5x10) +(8x9)] x1)] / 1= 167 (same as above)

Jim Lee marker sketch of wolverine

[[(9.5 x 8) + 7x9)] x .25(sketch) ]] x .3 = 1.04

Jim Lee Hush Splash

[[(9.5x10) +(8x9)] x5)] x 1 = 835

Jim Lee commissioned charity piece  of a full page portrait of Ernest Borgnine in Airwolf TV show from the 80's.

[[(9.5 x .5) + (2 x 0.5)] x 5] x .3 = 72.75

 

OK,  this is more of an index than a value, it's all relative, but if Ernest Borgnine Splash by Lee is greater than Wolvie Marker sketch, then maybe now we have jumped the shark.... 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by MYNAMEISLEGION
because-shark!

[Rick2you2]

16 hours ago, delekkerste said:

Same reason why you wouldn't pay LeBron James the same amount to play baseball as you would to play basketball.  Of course context matters - very few are buying any kind of art based purely on perceived talent and skill.  ...  That said, I do agree that skill/talent is often not the highest priority when evaluating the market value of comic book art. 

I agree with you; people buy what they want. But for the OA market, in general, is that a healthy perspective? It has the effect of limiting participants to an ever-shrinking number of comic book readers. Furthermore, it makes cross-comparisons between artists difficult by making their work dependent on the underlying subject matter. 

Perhaps if there were some generally recognized analytics it would help. For example, why is Byrne perceived as better than Cockrum? I think the imagry is stronger, and the characters appear more exceptional, but that's not a lot of analytics. What about panel layouts and borders? Use of image flow to carry the story? That sort of thing.

[MyNameIsLegion]

Cockrum is a better artist, Byrne is a better storyteller.  Byrne was good at leveraging his layouts and got a boost from Austin's inks so the bulk of the popularity and nostalgia lies with his run over Cockrum's 2 runs. Would the popularity of different issues be the same or different if who's drew what has been reversed?  If Cockrum had drawn Days of Future Past would it be the classic that it is?    IF Byrne had drawn the Brood Saga would it be bigger? Would X-Men #162 be THE Wolverine X-Men issue? 

[Rick2you2]

49 minutes ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

Cockrum is a better artist, Byrne is a better storyteller.

That's an interesting observation. By "storyteller", do you mean he was better at weaving the art into the story, as compared to straight-up illustration skills?

If my assumption is correct, that's really an interesting way to divine OA pricing--collectors value the use of art to tell a story more than technical skills. That, IMO, would be sensible for this medium.

[MyNameIsLegion]

5 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

That's an interesting observation. By "storyteller", do you mean he was better at weaving the art into the story, as compared to straight-up illustration skills?

If my assumption is correct, that's really an interesting way to divine OA pricing--collectors value the use of art to tell a story more than technical skills. That, IMO, would be sensible for this medium.

yup. I think Byrne was more adept at translating Claremont's -script into a layout that was compelling and knew how to play the beats (when to pause for dramatic effect, and when to convey action) That was Miller's strength on DD and Wolverine mini-series as well.  Miller too is not that great a draftsman IMHO, but a great story-teller.  Byrne as a pure artist: for 40 years everyone looks like Reed Richards, and if he had been inking himself instead of Austin on X-Men, we might be digging out his X-Men run from the dollar bins instead of the FF and Alpha Flight. Cockrum,  I always felt was a better, more polished and detailed Infantino.  The only criticism would be his characters are a little stiff. That's my 2cents.

 

 

[Panelfan1]

7 hours ago, mister_not_so_nice said:

1.01  

Thats what i get for staying up instead of going to bed. 

[delekkerste]

9 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

so with the discussion being all very deep - I thought I would try and sum it up as a math equation.

where C = Character, A = Artist, N = Nostalgia, P = Popularity and V =Value

CA+NP = V

now - to do math -each needs a value - so if we say a value from 0.1-10 with 0.1 being low and 10 being high.

as an example

character = samurai santa   (0.1 out of 10 since we don't have zero as a choice)

A = Jim Lee (9.5 out of 10 -since he's a meagastar)

N = 0.1 (since again, don't have zero to choose from)

p = 0.1

Value = 0.1x10+0.1x0.1

value =0.11

now 0.11 is kind of a weird value - so to get a $ value, you would need to calculate this for a lot of art, then figure out the median price and extrapolate.. etc.. (example if median price for a comic page is $100 - then a samurai santa page would be worth $11)

if we tried this out with something popular like Batman hush

A = Jim Lee (9.5 out of 10)

C = Batman (10 out of 10 - is there a more popular character in comics?)

N = key story collected by a lot of folks and still a big hit in trade (8 out of 10)

P = 9

V =9.5x10+8x9

value =167

so between the 2  examples - its clear batman hush - is worth more than 1500 times the samurai santa

feel free to destroy my attempted art math. no hard feelings if you do.

Wow!  This is even better than the Dr. J. Evans Pritchard method for evaluating poetry!  

 

[MyNameIsLegion]

[PhilipB2k17]

I thought about doing a comprehensive published OA study that used the more objective values of the comic it was published in as the anchor to determine the value ratio. To explain.

Is the value of an OA published page roughly equivalent to the 9.8+ CGC value of that same comic? If not, why not? If there are 22 OA pages in that comic, do we then compare how many are CGC 9.8+ in the CGC census to get a ratio? Or, is there no relationship at all to the comic's value? I think there is some degree of influence on value, but how much is hard to quantify.

I'd like to sample 10,000 OA sales and comparisons to their comic values, and come up with some kind of general ratio that you can add or subtract to based upon factors such as character and artists, etc.

 

[vodou]

4 hours ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

The only criticism would be his characters are a little stiff.

Having trouble finding really good examples on the fly, but my impression was that Cockrum was the better artist too except in one way: his ladies suffered flatass. Byrne was never one to shy from plumping 'em out

Cockrum

Byrne

[vodou]

14 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I thought about doing a comprehensive published OA study that used the more objective values of the comic it was published in as the anchor to determine the value ratio. To explain.

Is the value of an OA published page roughly equivalent to the 9.8+ CGC value of that same comic? If not, why not? If there are 22 OA pages in that comic, do we then compare how many are CGC 9.8+ in the CGC census to get a ratio? Or, is there no relationship at all to the comic's value? I think there is some degree of influence on value, but how much is hard to quantify.

I'd like to sample 10,000 OA sales and comparisons to their comic values, and come up with some kind of general ratio that you can add or subtract to based upon factors such as character and artists, etc.

 

I encourage you to do this but I don't think you'll find the correlation you expect. What drives CGC 9.8 demand (thus price) is very different than what drives the same for OA. There would be outliers where some overlap may occur, naturally, but globally - No. I don't think you'll get that.

[delekkerste]

25 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Is the value of an OA published page roughly equivalent to the 9.8+ CGC value of that same comic? If not, why not?

Please don't waste your time.  There's not even a formula to differentiate the value of the different pages in the same issue, let alone vs. a 9.8+ CGC value of the same comic.  Even if the value of all 22 pages were equal, it still would be a waste of time, because the value of most comics is negatively correlated with time (e.g., '60s comics are generally more expensive than '70s comics are more expensive than '80s comics, etc.) whereas no such correlation exists with OA.  The value drivers of comics and art are totally different, and any regression analysis of 9.8 comic prices vs. OA interiors (which, again, would have a standardization problem) would give you a completely meaningless result, fitting a regression line through a galaxy of data points with no discernible correlation.  The output would be total, useless garbage. 

[PhilipB2k17]

8 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Please don't waste your time.  There's not even a formula to differentiate the value of the different pages in the same issue, let alone vs. a 9.8+ CGC value of the same comic.  Even if the value of all 22 pages were equal, it still would be a waste of time, because the value of most comics is negatively correlated with time (e.g., '60s comics are generally more expensive than '70s comics are more expensive than '80s comics, etc.) whereas no such correlation exists with OA.  The value drivers of comics and art are totally different, and any regression analysis of 9.8 comic prices vs. OA interiors (which, again, would have a standardization problem) would give you a completely meaningless result, fitting a regression line through a galaxy of data points with no discernible correlation.  The output would be total, useless garbage. 

This is very probably true. But you might be able to develop a mean ratio, and then establish deviations off of it to explain why some OA may have more, or less, value. It would be interesting to see if this could be done, as while I think people assume there is no way to quantify it, something can be mathematically represented if most everyone agree on the criteria that needs to be evaluated. And while we all have our different preferences, I think we can all agree (for the most part) on what criteria we each rate when evaluating a piece of OA.

 

[comix4fun]

2 hours ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

Is that one of those new Elektra pieces? 

[PhilipB2k17]

36 minutes ago, vodou said:

Having trouble finding really good examples on the fly, but my impression was that Cockrum was the better artist too except in one way: his ladies suffered flatass. Byrne was never one to shy from plumping 'em out

Cockrum

Byrne

I am definitely more of a Cockrum fan when it comes to the way he drew ladies.