Art Prices 3 3

[grapeape]

15 minutes ago, romitaman said:

That is arguably the most ill informed or misinformed comment i've ever read on these boards........comment i've ever heard on these boards..... Most People don't know this.... But there were 2 artists Stan Lee was considering to replace Steve Ditko On ASM when it was clear Ditko was leaving the title....... It was john Romita...or Ayers!!!!....... I'll bet my entire art collection against your 5 dollar bill that ASM #100 cover would not sell for half what it hit at auction had it been drawn by Ayers!

I was waiting for you to chime in with good common sense! Romita is not a slug artist easily interchangeable with other artists on Spidey. There was a magic in what he brought to ASM. He elevated the way we look at Peter Parker and Spider-Man. Opinions are opinions yet it seems silly to insist upon a certain artistic mediocrity concerning Jazzy Johnny. Hall of Fame, MVP whatever. John is above this I believe but he is an all star always!!!

[romitaman]

On 3/20/2018 at 1:11 PM, Bronty said:

Show me the non ASM romita cover that so impeccable that it would sell for 478,000

You just made your own point Bronty....LOL.......The frickin Romita cover sold for 478K!!!! I sold the ASM 50 cover for 550k 4 years ago.......

another pre 100 small romita cover i know of sold recently privately for 150k.... Had it been drawn by Ayers....or Lieber, Or Perlin...or Buckler, Or Don Heck....it wouldnt have hit 75k.

BEAUTIFUL COVER ART SELLS!!!!!!!  

keep saying that to yourself 100 times and then maybe it will sink in........well....maybe........

(all in good fun of course!)....it's only "funny book art" people........   

[romitaman]

On 3/20/2018 at 1:44 PM, Bronty said:

Agreed, but do you know why that is?   Because Gil Kane didn't have a long run on ASM.    Context.   Not because Kane's a worse artist.   

In fact for my money Kane was the stronger cover artist.     You say Romita was Marvel's art director , fair point, well, if you look at the 1975-1980 period I bet Kane did more covers in that span than any other artist in comics.   He was dynamite with layout.   Some of the strongest covers from the Romita period are the ones where Kane was involved IMO.    98, 101, 129, 151 etc.    Now interiors Romita was better but covers, no contest, Kane... IMO.

However, I will grant you faces weren't Kane's strong suit so maybe a #100 style cover just isn't Kane's baileywick period.

and 3 of those 4 covers you listed above were inked by Romita...HEAVILY...(As the last 3 look like Romita drawn covers!)

That's why they sell for huge money now...You just disproved your point.

Just take a look at Gil Kane's ASM covers "not" inked by Romita...........for the most part.......most are not so great nor remembered (by comparison) ASM 98 is the only Kane drawn cover i can think of off the top of my head that is truly REMEMBERED in the run not worked on by Romita to have that..... "Romita" look.

But again..it's all our own opinions........ and means nothing in the whole scheme of who we all feel are good or bad artists working on good or bad titles....  I'm just glad i got into the hobby early enough to truly appreciate the art i cherish....... and to be able to share images with fellow collectors who truly appreciate this art we all hold so dear to us.

I'm working hard with a few close friends to having a traveling Spider-Man Art Museum that will travel all over the USA as well as the rest of the globe, with most or all of my ENTIRE COLLECTION...(fully insured of course...LOL)

Stay Tuned!!!

Edited March 24, 2018 by romitaman

[stinkininkin]

7 hours ago, romitaman said:

and 3 of those 4 covers you listed above were inked by Romita...HEAVILY...(As the last 3 look like Romita drawn covers!)

That's why they sell for huge money now...You just disproved your point.

Just take a look at Gil Kane's ASM covers "not" inked by Romita...........for the most part.......most are not so great nor remembered (by comparison) ASM 98 is the only Kane drawn cover i can think of off the top of my head that is truly REMEMBERED in the run not worked on by Romita to have that..... "Romita" look.

But again..it's all our own opinions........ and means nothing in the whole scheme of who we all feel are good or bad artists working on good or bad titles....  I'm just glad i got into the hobby early enough to truly appreciate the art i cherish....... and to be able to share images with fellow collectors who truly appreciate this art we all hold so dear to us.

I'm working hard with a few close friends to having a traveling Spider-Man Art Museum that will travel all over the USA as well as the rest of the globe, with most or all of my ENTIRE COLLECTION...(fully insured of course...LOL)

Stay Tuned!!!

A traveling show would be great Mike, but as the owner of all that art, it would make me nervous as all get out.  I think the last thing you'd want is to get an insurance payout for lost, stolen or damaged art.  The art means more to us than the money.  Hope you can figure out the logistics, but I'm not sure I would be as trusting as you.

Scott

[Rick2you2]

On 3/23/2018 at 7:27 AM, delekkerste said:

Well, first of all, I'd say that it is what it is.  But, even if it wasn't, I do think that an emphasis on context actually *is* a healthy perspective.  A set of "generally recognized analytics" would likely favor more technical skill/draftsmanship (outside of character and context), which I do not believe is what attracts people to comic book art and which I also believe is justifiably not the most important measure of value anyway.

First, I'm ruing the day I used the word "analytics" because I never really expected attempts at quantification. So, I decided to break down what impresses me with a page of OA and give an idea of where I was going. By the way, I'm tryng to consciously identify things which just naturally flow, so some others may occur to me later. Anyone caring to chime in with their own thoughts would also be welcome.

For me, this is what I look for:

1. The stronger the images of my targetted character, the better.  

2. Whether I like the style of the artist in the piece (Kirby, for example, could draw using quite a few styles).

3. Whether the artist is employing that particular style well to the scenes at hand (e.g. Yes to Byrne in Legends; No to Byrne in WW). This is where I would place the "wow" factor--does it impress or not?

4. If the artist is drawing representational art, did he foul something up? For example, look at a lot of Sekowsky pieces and ask how the heck does a person actually bend that way? But, if it's Scott Adams drawing "Dilbert", I don't care. Stuff in the middle gets "graded on a curve." Representational art with a foul-up really annoys me, but that's me. 

5. Do the panels properly propel the page's storytelling along? Once I get past the "wow" factor, this is what I focus on. In this category, add partial splashes-- is the artist using a splash where it helps or is not needed (because maybe he/she is just showing off)? 

6. If the page is a basic 6 panel, or could be, has the artist livened it up with creative border work, character angles, pop outs, or somethng else? Those sorts of pages can be deadly dull, so I give extra points to an artist who brings something special to them. Here is where Chaykin was a stand-out (before his Photoshop days).

7. Does the page have particularly interesting or creative bits in it? Adams' Deadman mini-series is border-line unreadable for me, but boy, can he design a page. 

8. On the negative end, has the artist employed great stylistic flourishes but either failed to pay attention to the fundimental aspects of story-telling, or obscured it with the flourishes? That's another thing I really dislike. 

9. Will I want to look at it over and over again? Purely one of aesthetics, that's really the ultimate test. 

So, anyone else have some thoughts?

[Bronty]

9 hours ago, romitaman said:

That is arguably the most ill informed or misinformed comment i've ever read on these boards.........

Most People don't know this.... But there were 2 artists Stan Lee was considering to replace Powell / Wood On DD when it was clear Wood was leaving the title....... It was John Romita...or Ayers!!!!....... Stan Had Ayers draw a DD pinup...then Romita draw a pinup (which I still own to this day)

Romita got the job on DD...a no brainer as they say by simply looking at both artists drawings.

.....and 4 months later.....Stan Lee had John Romita AUDITION for the ASM title by having Spider-Man cross over into DD 16-17........ and once Stan Lee saw Romita's artwork he knew he had his NEW ASM ARTIST once Ditko left!!!  

and I'll bet Bronty my entire Spidey art collection against his 5 dollar bill that ASM #100 cover would not sell for half what it hit at auction had it been drawn by Ayers!

Yes Mike.   And if your kid sister had drawn it, it would be less valuable also. 

Obviously not ANYONE else and obviously the artist has SOME effect on value.   If you read all the past discussion you can see we are talking other artists in the same kind of skill level.    I don't think anyone is saying Ayers, heck there were some jokes about that if you read above.

No need to go all 'sonny boy' on me btw, I think Brulato has a copyright on that act     I'll try and keep it classy.    You're a Romita fan, great.    For the 10,000th time, no one is saying he wasn't a skilled artist.     But that the skill of the artist is one of the lesser variables in the price of something like an ASM 100 cover.   Sorry, it just is.

Heck, the fact you hold a lot of Romita is of greater importance as well.    Or, the fact that you'll go into the market to support the price of Romita.   

Don't take that as a shot, because it isn't, I simply mean what I wrote.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Bronty

[Bronty]

8 hours ago, romitaman said:

You just made your own point Bronty....LOL.......The frickin Romita cover sold for 478K!!!! I sold the ASM 50 cover for 550k 4 years ago.......

another pre 100 small romita cover i know of sold recently privately for 150k.... Had it been drawn by Ayers....or Lieber, Or Perlin...or Buckler, Or Don Heck....it wouldnt have hit 75k.

BEAUTIFUL COVER ART SELLS!!!!!!!  

keep saying that to yourself 100 times and then maybe it will sink in........well....maybe........

(all in good fun of course!)....it's only "funny book art" people........   

Great Mike!!!!   Show me your $478,000 Romita romance cover sales!!!!     Oh wait you can't!!   Because if he had drawn soap boxes, you wouldn't even know his name!   (And neither would I, nor any of us).

You collect ASM first and foremost, just like everyone else.    The character and story content and all those other contextual factors have more value than the artist.    They just do.

If the best image John ever turned out in his life was of two cows in a field after his ASM days were done, no one would care.   They would want the lesser quality images that had spiderman on them.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Bronty

[Bronty]

8 hours ago, romitaman said:

and 3 of those 4 covers you listed above were inked by Romita...HEAVILY...(As the last 3 look like Romita drawn covers!)

That's why they sell for huge money now...You just disproved your point.

 

Are you serious?    I know that Romita was involved in those.   What I said was that the ASM covers in the period Romita worked on the book that are composed by Kane are to my eye generally stronger than the ones he composed himself.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Bronty

[Bronty]

8 hours ago, romitaman said:

I'm working hard with a few close friends to having a traveling Spider-Man Art Museum that will travel all over the USA as well as the rest of the globe, with most or all of my ENTIRE COLLECTION...(fully insured of course...LOL)

Stay Tuned!!!

Now that's a wonderful endeavor, congrats and good work

[delekkerste]

19 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Great Mike!!!!   Show me your $478,000 Romita romance cover sales!!!!     Oh wait you can't!!

Yeah, but Romita romance covers will sell for more than non-Romita romance covers. No one is denying that character/context is the primary driver for almost any piece, but, that's basically a given and really doesn't even need to be stated.  As such, it's the relative valuations that matter more, and those show that the artist matters a great deal, far more than you are implying.  Forget Don Heck or Ayers; ASM 100 done even by John Buscema probably sells at a steep discount to ASM 100 drawn by Romita. 

It's not unlike Formula 1 racing. The best driver in the world cannot win a championship  if he doesn't have a car that is competitive (re: John Romita romance art is never going to sell for as much as John Romita ASM art).  But, that doesn't mean that it's all about the car and nothing to do with the driver (re: that doesn't mean that Romita ASM OA valuations are all about the character and nothing to do with the artist). 

Imagine if Romita had done no other comic work other than ASM and that you couldn't even make the Romita ASM vs. Romita romance/other argument. To me, even if ASM was all he ever did, John Romita would still be a first ballot comic art Hall of Famer.  Not that I would put him as high in the pantheon as Kirby and a number of other all time greats, but, he'd still make my cut on the first ballot. 

[Bronty]

1 minute ago, delekkerste said:

Yeah, but Romita romance covers will sell for more than non-Romita romance covers.

Gene....   If Romita had never drawn ASM, the premium between Romita romance and non-Romita romance would be far smaller, I assure you.    

As such its not the fact that its drawn by Romita that is generating most of that premium.    Its the fact that its a romance cover drawn by a long time ASM artist.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Bronty

[delekkerste]

6 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Gene....   If Romita had never drawn ASM, the premium between Romita romance and non-Romita romance would be far smaller, I assure you.    

As such its not the fact that its drawn by Romita that is generating most of that premium.    Its the fact that its a romance cover drawn by a long time ASM artist.

Except he was only the longtime artist for Marvel's flagship title because he was so good and fans loved him. So, sure, the premium is what it is because of the ASM connection.  But, he'd still get a premium based on talent alone. 

[AnkurJ]

I saw a Romita Romance cover for sale for $9k on CAF the other day. Haven't really followed the market for them. Its a nice cover!

So this thread has taken a very different route. What should I change the title to? Romita the hack?

Edited March 24, 2018 by AnkurJ

[Bronty]

2 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Except he was only the longtime artist for Marvel's flagship title because he was so good and fans loved him. So, sure, the premium is what it is because of the ASM connection.  But, he'd still get a premium based on talent alone. 

Yes, his romance work is to my eye really the stuff he was best suited for.    Its not what sold so its not what he was put onto so much at Marvel, but there's no doubt he was excellent at it.

Yes, this is a chicken and the egg situation to some extent.   

But you and Tim always tell me that skill is cheap and that artists in back alleys in China can do whatever you want them to, yes?    Its only marginally about his skill.     Yes, maybe the cover is only 300k if its by someone else.   But its still 300k!! when a non ASM piece might be 5k!

Edited March 24, 2018 by Bronty

[Bronty]

2 minutes ago, AnkurJ said:

I saw a Romita Romance cover for sale for $9k on CAF the other day. Haven't really followed the market for them. Its a nice cover!

Let's see.... 478k versus 9k...

[delekkerste]

7 minutes ago, Bronty said:

But you and Tim always tell me that skill is cheap and that artists in back alleys in China can do whatever you want them to, yes?    

Technical skill is cheap, which is why the ability to paint or draw realistically is not the height of artistic achievement as many laymen and some deluded souls on the Boards would have you believe. 

Skill in the sense of having talent, creative vision, storytelling ability and a unique, appealing style is not cheap at all. 

Edited March 24, 2018 by delekkerste

[Bronty]

9 minutes ago, AnkurJ said:

 

So this thread has taken a very different route. What should I change the title to? Romita the hack?

Yes, please.    That should put a quite a few panties in a bunch on this thread.   Sounds like fun.   

Edited March 24, 2018 by Bronty

[Bronty]

16 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Technical skill is cheap, which is why the ability to paint or draw realistically is not the height of artistic achievement as many laymen and some deluded souls on the Boards would have you believe. 

Skill in the sense of having talent, vision and a unique, appealing style is not cheap at all. 

Sounds like you are making a good case for the most important artist at Marvel being Stan Lee!    Frankly, I agree! 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Bronty

[Bronty]

Just now, Bill C said:

Romita was not only a main storyteller on arguably Marvel's flagship title, but he also seemed to draw so much of the various ads/Marvel merchandising of the 70's and early 80's. Seems like after Kirby was gone, at some point he became synonymous with Marvel's look.

And your point is?

[vodou]

The poll, informal or otherwise, then is how much of ASM #100 $478k is in $ due to:

1. Spider-Man

2. Amazing Spider-Man (not Spectacular, Web of, Electric Company, etc)

3. #100 (inclusive of comic collecting round number OCD and image specifically assigned to reflect previous 99 issues of history)

4. John Romita

5 Frank Giacoia