PACIFIC COAST COLLXN- THE LAST GREAT SILVER AGE PEDIGREE??

[Rocketeer]

 

Ya think?.....

[tth2]

and i just wanted to add, that i believe TTH is onto something regarding SA pedigrees. While my collection has the required length/depth of a Pedigree, and is a true OO collection, the best and earliest books frequently don't rise to the occasion. So i'm slowly selling them myself/consignment because of the information and means that the internet has provided, and the fact that i have the luxury of time, being retired. very easy to see where other, finer collections may have been sold in whole or part over the internet this past decade..........

Hi Harry, your collection was exactly the basis of my thinking. First, you've had the ability to slab and sell them directly (or at least through a consignment site). And it didn't occur to you when you started selling them to market them as a pedigree. Just imagine pre-CGC, you would have just been "Harry from NJ" with a story on eBay that you bought these books as a kid from a luncheonette and kept them sitting in a drawer for years, and they're all HG. And we know how people view stories like that with a huge grain of salt!

 

Second, if your collection had surfaced through a dealer in the mid-1990s, the dealer may have marketed it as a pedigree, and maybe it would have received market recognition once the depth and quality was known. Then, bowing to market acceptance, when CGC came into being it might have recognized it as a pedigree. My guess is that if the collection had surfaced through a dealer post-CGC, or if you had applied for pedigree designation, CGC would not have granted it primarily because of the lower grades of the earlier books.

 

Just to be clear on my original post, I DO think there are pedigree-quality collections out there. I was just saying that they will not be recognized as pedigrees for the various reasons I described.

[tth2]

Who did the pressing?

 

And with that, this thread comes to a screeching halt.

But I think Linmoth's post about pressing is a good one, because he's actually stating facts and most importantly, providing supporting evidence. So many of the posts about pressing are just speculation, conjecturing, extrapolating, etc. More posts about pressing that are supported by hard data are always welcome in my book.

 

I know Arty's keeping a list of suspected pressed and upgraded Church books, I don't suppose anyone would be interested in keeping a tally of ALL suspected pressed and upgraded books? It would be great to have a central source to reference.

 

I've previously stated that I thought most HG books were not good candidates for pressing. I must say that Linmoth's statement about pedigrees such as the PC books being prime candidates for pressing BECAUSE of their structural integrity has now given me pause.

 

However, Tom, I would appreciate if you could elaborate further. Are you saying that the best candidates are those books that were relatively low grade, such as the 8.5 DD #2, which had immaculate spines and corners, and got downgraded because of non-color breaking creases in places such as the back cover? Or are you saying that even the "true" NM and better PC books also make good candidates for pressing, because the defects knocking them down to "mere" 9.4s and 9.6s can be cured by pressing?

[tth2]

so my question is do most people really not care that their 4K 9.4 book was an 8.5 last year?,...or do they not know,...cause I can't see someone paying that amount of money for a book and not be aware of what's happening,....even I can tell the difference between a pressed and non-pressed book now,...

I think they don't know. How much discussion of this topic is there outside of these boards? And how small a sample of the comic collecting public is represented on these boards? Not very much, I would guess. Also, the fact is that a guy who can drop $4k on a book is probably a pretty busy person with a decent amount of money. He may not have the time nor desire to go and research every book before he pulls the trigger.

 

Anyways, what is the source of the research to compare books? Other than Heritage's archives, where else can we go? Most dealers pull the scans off their books quickly after a book is sold (could Comiclink have pulled the scans of the 9.4 JLA #1 and 9.4 Flash #105 any faster?), and in any event, many dealer scans are often not high quality enough to make definitive comparisons. So for a relatively common book like DD #2, how many previous scans from Heritage would he have to sift through in order to determine whether the book he wants to buy is pressed? Heck, these boards are often pretty good about collectively identifying suspected pressed-resubs, particularly when it's a pedigree book, and I don't recall anyone pointing out this DD #2 (I'll have to check out Linmoth's earlier post, I don't recall seeing it).

[drdonaldblake]

tim u make some interesting points on possible reasons we wont see more OO pedigrees

 

im sure if a collexn like the oakland one turned up now it may not get a pedigree status............................im not sure how it got cgc pedigree status in the first place

[tth2]

im sure if a collexn like the oakland one turned up now it may not get a pedigree status............................im not sure how it got cgc pedigree status in the first place

Maybe because CGC needed the support of dealers like Metropolis to get off the ground?

[Captain Tripps]

Doctor,

 

There will be other High grade SA pedigrees found, but it would be almost impossible to match the depth and breadth of the PC Collection. IMHO, this is the second greatest pedigree of all time (Edgar Church obviously #1) and when you average a 9.6 on every issue from ASM 1-150, Avengers 1-100, Daredevil 1-100, TOS 39-100, TTA 39-101, ST 101-168, etc., etc., well, that would be very difficult to match.

 

There will be another pedigree found soon enough that will even pass the CGC's most stringest tests for pedigree designation, but matching the likes of the Pacific coasts seems impossible. How can you keep these 40+ year old books so perfect over such time? It really boggles the mind.

 

As i've said before, look for a collection to surface out of a less well-known, non- center (where CGC and Overstreet Price Guide isn't known at all and where the collector wouldn't have had as many people or outside influences urging him/her to sell/grade/show his collection. It's gonna happen, folks, and probably sooner than you think.

[Captain Tripps]

Tim,

 

I was going to ask the same question myself. If you think I've been pressing my PC's to get higher grades you're way off. Most of these books were graded in 2001 and so on, after the CGC's initial "loose" grading guidelines. The ones I was able to upgrade were just undergraded to begin with. If you resubmit 100 books (which I did, over time) the percentages dictate that 20 or so will be upgraded, some will be downgraded and a majority will stay the same grade. Having a virtually perfect, near-mint state, unread book from a major known pedigree can only help as these books do lend themselves to benefits of doubt (i.e. if a cross between a 9.4 and 9.6, since there is no 9.5, the pedigree might influence the bump up).

 

More importantly, the CGC was incredibly tight on page quality in the first few years and many of the PC's I acquired had off-white pages which I couldn't understand as they looked incredibly white to me. Many of the ones I had resubmitted were for page quality reasons and some of those even got upgraded. It's an expensive game so you have to carefully pick the right books to do it with!!

 

Just wanted to clear the air on this PC question. I do get defensive with PC's, I guess, because my collection would be very different (and lower graded) without these gems. Plus, when you have the benefit of seeing full runs in such beautiful condition, well, you can understand my passion here guys!

[mr_highgrade]

I know a postal worker in his mid 50's who has a OO collection of Marvels with some DC's from the early 60's. He told me that he read them once and stored them away in plastic bags.

He plans on leaving his collection to his daughter when he passes away.

[Aces]

I know a postal worker in his mid 50's who has a OO collection of Marvels with some DC's from the early 60's. He told me that he read them once and stored them away in plastic bags.

He plans on leaving his collection to his daughter when he passes away.

 

Did you tell him he should get them slabbed and sell them now for mega dollars during this movie hype?

 

After he makes a million bucks he could buy reading runs of everything for $100,000 and enjoy the rest of the cash.

[tth2]

Tim,

 

I was going to ask the same question myself. If you think I've been pressing my PC's to get higher grades you're way off. Most of these books were graded in 2001 and so on, after the CGC's initial "loose" grading guidelines. The ones I was able to upgrade were just undergraded to begin with. If you resubmit 100 books (which I did, over time) the percentages dictate that 20 or so will be upgraded, some will be downgraded and a majority will stay the same grade. Having a virtually perfect, near-mint state, unread book from a major known pedigree can only help as these books do lend themselves to benefits of doubt (i.e. if a cross between a 9.4 and 9.6, since there is no 9.5, the pedigree might influence the bump up).

 

More importantly, the CGC was incredibly tight on page quality in the first few years and many of the PC's I acquired had off-white pages which I couldn't understand as they looked incredibly white to me. Many of the ones I had resubmitted were for page quality reasons and some of those even got upgraded. It's an expensive game so you have to carefully pick the right books to do it with!!

 

Just wanted to clear the air on this PC question. I do get defensive with PC's, I guess, because my collection would be very different (and lower graded) without these gems. Plus, when you have the benefit of seeing full runs in such beautiful condition, well, you can understand my passion here guys!

Doug, thanks for this. No, I did not think you were part of the pressing mafia. But since it is well known that you have been a major resubmitter of PCs, I wanted to squarely raise this issue with Mushroom publicly rather than continue to dance around the issue and permit more innuendo and unfounded rumors to fester on these boards.

[jbud73]

Doctor,

 

There will be other High grade SA pedigrees found, but it would be almost impossible to match the depth and breadth of the PC Collection. IMHO, this is the second greatest pedigree of all time (Edgar Church obviously #1) and when you average a 9.6 on every issue from ASM 1-150, Avengers 1-100, Daredevil 1-100, TOS 39-100, TTA 39-101, ST 101-168, etc., etc., well, that would be very difficult to match.

 

There will be another pedigree found soon enough that will even pass the CGC's most stringest tests for pedigree designation, but matching the likes of the Pacific coasts seems impossible. How can you keep these 40+ year old books so perfect over such time? It really boggles the mind.

 

As i've said before, look for a collection to surface out of a less well-known, non- center (where CGC and Overstreet Price Guide isn't known at all and where the collector wouldn't have had as many people or outside influences urging him/her to sell/grade/show his collection. It's gonna happen, folks, and probably sooner than you think.

 

Thanks for chiming in on this one Cap as you know doubt have more first hand knowledge of the Ped than most anybody else - however I will take exception the the stringent CGC standards comment, which standards are those??? Seems to me the Pedigree designation is up for sale after the Mile High 2 fiasco - which to my mind is a slap in the face to all other Peds, including your Pac Coasts.

[GertHammink-migration]

I tried finding some past postings on the Daredevil #11 - am I right in saying it was a consignment book of Dougs or a book that Doug knew was consigned but because Ewert was selling it, Ewert has been blamed this whole time or something because of an upgrade - I am confused.

 

I have recently seen the structure and freshness of a Pacific Coast book and I am thoroughly impressed. I have collected mostly Golden Age to this point, but I can only imagine the quality of that collection as a whole. Is it true that there were high grade Gold Keys as well?

[drdonaldblake]

there were lotsa gold keys and also DC's..most of which roter still owns

[blazingbob]

Do not pick on Ben. He is learning to write using the Doctor's prescription model. I'm surprised we could even read it

[Red Hook]

Dr. Benway?

[blazingbob]

Why would you include the Boston's and exclude the Oakland collection? I helped grade the Oakland collection and know a bit of the depth of the Boston collection.

 

And knowing that Vinny and I both know where the Boston collection came from would strongly argue why it doesn't deserve to be a pedigree either. Just a lot of highgrade books with multiple copies. Except for the 1st batch of Bostons there has been nothing but the same books over and over again.

[tth2]

Why would you include the Boston's and exclude the Oakland collection? I helped grade the Oakland collection and know a bit of the depth of the Boston collection.

 

And knowing that Vinny and I both know where the Boston collection came from would strongly argue why it doesn't deserve to be a pedigree either. Just a lot of highgrade books with multiple copies. Except for the 1st batch of Bostons there has been nothing but the same books over and over again.

Ahem! From my post in response to Ben`s question:

 

2. CGC have tightened up the pedigree-granting standard (but won't tell us what they are). My guess is they've REALLY tightened up for SA pedigrees, and collections like Oakland, Winnipeg and Boston, where the bulk of the primo books are post-1965, would not get a designation today.

[linmoth]

 

However, Tom, I would appreciate if you could elaborate further. Are you saying that the best candidates are those books that were relatively low grade, such as the 8.5 DD #2, which had immaculate spines and corners, and got downgraded because of non-color breaking creases in places such as the back cover? Or are you saying that even the "true" NM and better PC books also make good candidates for pressing, because the defects knocking them down to "mere" 9.4s and 9.6s can be cured by pressing?

 

Tim: I am saying that if a TOS 48 9.4 PC can become a TOS 48 9.8 PC then it is entirely possible for others, depending on the defects, to reach this grade.

I know what the book's problems were before the upgrade so I assume it was pressed.

 

One thing that bothers me about the resubs:

 

Why are the serial numbers being changed?

 

Tom

[jbud73]

I tried finding some past postings on the Daredevil #11 - am I right in saying it was a consignment book of Dougs or a book that Doug knew was consigned but because Ewert was selling it, Ewert has been blamed this whole time or something because of an upgrade - I am confused.

 

I have recently seen the structure and freshness of a Pacific Coast book and I am thoroughly impressed. I have collected mostly Golden Age to this point, but I can only imagine the quality of that collection as a whole. Is it true that there were high grade Gold Keys as well?

 

THE NOW CLASSIC DD #11 discussion