PACIFIC COAST COLLXN- THE LAST GREAT SILVER AGE PEDIGREE??

[FFB]

 

However, Tom, I would appreciate if you could elaborate further. Are you saying that the best candidates are those books that were relatively low grade, such as the 8.5 DD #2, which had immaculate spines and corners, and got downgraded because of non-color breaking creases in places such as the back cover? Or are you saying that even the "true" NM and better PC books also make good candidates for pressing, because the defects knocking them down to "mere" 9.4s and 9.6s can be cured by pressing?

 

Tim: I am saying that if a TOS 48 9.4 PC can become a TOS 48 9.8 PC then it is entirely possible for others, depending on the defects, to reach this grade.

I know what the book's problems were before the upgrade so I assume it was pressed.

 

One thing that bothers me about the resubs:

 

Why are the serial numbers being changed?

 

Tom

 

You only keep the same serial number if you get the book reholdered. If the book is regraded, it gets a new number every time.

[lou_fine]

However, Tom, I would appreciate if you could elaborate further. Are you saying that the best candidates are those books that were relatively low grade, such as the 8.5 DD #2, which had immaculate spines and corners, and got downgraded because of non-color breaking creases in places such as the back cover? Or are you saying that even the "true" NM and better PC books also make good candidates for pressing, because the defects knocking them down to "mere" 9.4s and 9.6s can be cured by pressing?

Tim: I am saying that if a TOS 48 9.4 PC can become a TOS 48 9.8 PC then it is entirely possible for others, depending on the defects, to reach this grade.

I know what the book's problems were before the upgrade so I assume it was pressed.

 

Tom

 

 

Come on.....what's wrong with you guys! Why in the world would you assume that the book has been pressed up to a 9.8.

 

Are you trying to tell me that you don't believe the story that these dealers with their years and years of experience behind them, can easily spot an undergraded CGC book and simply play the old resubmit and upgrade game WITHOUT having anything done to the book.

 

It's the exact same thing with all those GA 7.5's turning into blue label 9.4's. The pro-pressing crowd was saying that it really had nothing to do with pressing and was just a case of grading being a subjective art and shifting standards over time at CGC.

 

Well either way, we really got nothing to worry about since Steve B. and all of the other pro-pressers empathically state that they don't really care if a book has been pressed or not. It doesn't make a difference to them at all since the only thing that matters is the CGC grade. I have no doubt in my mind that they are more than willing to back this up with their open wallets by rushing to pay post-pressed 9.8 prices for fully disclosed pre-pressed 9.4 books such as the PC POS #48.

[FFB]

However, Tom, I would appreciate if you could elaborate further. Are you saying that the best candidates are those books that were relatively low grade, such as the 8.5 DD #2, which had immaculate spines and corners, and got downgraded because of non-color breaking creases in places such as the back cover? Or are you saying that even the "true" NM and better PC books also make good candidates for pressing, because the defects knocking them down to "mere" 9.4s and 9.6s can be cured by pressing?

Tim: I am saying that if a TOS 48 9.4 PC can become a TOS 48 9.8 PC then it is entirely possible for others, depending on the defects, to reach this grade.

I know what the book's problems were before the upgrade so I assume it was pressed.

 

Tom

 

 

Come on.....what's wrong with you guys! Why in the world would you assume that the book has been pressed up to a 9.8.

 

Are you trying to tell me that you don't believe the story that these dealers with their years and years of experience behind them, can easily spot an undergraded CGC book and simply play the old resubmit and upgrade game WITHOUT having anything done to the book.

 

It's the exact same thing with all those GA 7.5's turning into blue label 9.4's. The pro-pressing crowd was saying that it really had nothing to do with pressing and was just a case of grading being a subjective art and shifting standards over time at CGC.

 

Well either way, we really got nothing to worry about since Steve B. and all of the other pro-pressers empathically state that they don't really care if a book has been pressed or not. It doesn't make a difference to them at all since the only thing that matters is the CGC grade. I have no doubt in my mind that they are more than willing to back this up with their open wallets by rushing to pay post-pressed 9.8 prices for fully disclosed pre-pressed 9.4 books such as the PC POS #48.

 

Where did someone say that a previously-CGC-graded 7.5-turned-CGC-9.4 was the result of subjective grading? I must have missed that comment.

[Captain Tripps]

Gert,

 

High grade isn't the word. Full runs of most titles in 9.4/9.6/9.8. Unbelievable books that I cherish almost as much as my Marvel runs. I Spy, Man From UNCLE, Doctor Solar, Space Family Robinson, Girl From Uncle, Dark Shadows, Invaders, Star Trek, etc. I have every PC copy except for Dark Shadows #2 & 3 which Robert roter sold before CGC (I think) to a collector in England. I'd love to get these 2 as I have 1 and 4-6 in 9.4/9.6 so if anyone hears of these two PC's please let me know.

 

Hard to believe how undervalued these SA gems are.

[Silver Surfer]

mushroom

can u pls elaborate on "what was done" to the PC's or what did u actually mean by your post?

 

i know quite a few PC's have been resubbd and got higher grades, alot of books from other pedigrees have eben resubbd and got higher grades eg the boston ff 50 9.6 went to 9.8

 

I owned a copy of FF#73 CGC 9.4 Pacfic Coast and I thought it was seriously undergraded. I decided to sell it through Pedigree when Doug opended shop and after a brief discussion he told me that I had bought this off of him on Comiclink (neat). I wish I kept the book and resubbed it because it corners were sharp enough to poke your eyes out. I really think it could had picked up a 9.6 and I just thought it was a case another example of an undergraded old label. There was no ripple on the top right edge, its just the scan.

[Captain Tripps]

Tim,

 

I'm sorry, I didn't even notice your post when I was responding to the PC question on Gold Keys. I was not initially repling or even referring to anything you had said, it was Mushroom's post that I was answering and I did it, in a sense, to "defend" what I consider to be the greatest Silver Age pedigree of them all (wasn't there a thread on that issue as well??!!). I did not mean for you to apologize or anything, Tim, that's for sure! However, in your post, you had mentioned the term "Pressing Mafia" and I do not think I I know exactly what you mean by that term. While I myself do not press books (I can't even press a shirt or use an ironing board!) I have had books pressed and I think my position on pressing has been clear from the beginning of this issue (I just can't remember which thread it was when I chimed in with my feelings). To me, pressing is not restoration and I do not think that removing or flattening out a surface impression /ding or a wave/ripple on a comic book is restoration (especially when done by a professional who knows what they are doing!). You are simply undoing something that was done to the book during the human handling portion, not reversing anything about the book as it looked in its original off-the-print state.

 

Compare that to removing staples, removing rust, washing a cover, adding color touch, glue, tape, etc., etc. which is physically adding to the book's appearance, etc. There is a clear and definite difference (at least in my opinion!!) Plus, I think this opinion is shared by a majority of the hobby based on past posts, etc.

 

Anyway, I hate to see this post about original owner collections turning into a pressing debate so I will it at that. Sorry about the confusion, Tim.

 

Getting back to the oo discussion, even though Burntboy's collection didn't get a pedigree designation, it is still a major find and leaves me no doubt that similar oo runs will follow. They just have to. Harry wasn't the first guy to keep his books in meticulous condition over time and I doubt he will be the last.

[jbud73]

While I respect your opinion Doug and I'm not arguing that NDP is the same thing as staple replacement. However, IMO you are still removing defects, in fact specifically targeting defects to improve the condition of the book and return it to its original state after defects were imposed by handling, or mishandling as it were.

 

In terms of the majority of opinion based on posts related to the topic again I would posit the statement "most people don't consider NDP resotration" as a unproven generalisation. The most telling evidence to the contrary I can ascertain is if that were true, why the lack of disclosure on the part of the dealers who engage in pressing.

 

Seems a little to circular an arguement for me. "Well we feel the general public doesn't care so we will press the book and decide not to tell them as they don't care in the first place." A tad too self serving don't you think. Or the other arguement "Well CGC doesn't consider it pressing, so we are under no obligation to disclose it as restoration - Or even disclose that it was done"

 

These are both normative arguements with self serving ends. I personally can't think of too many collectors who DON'T want to know everything a seller knows about a book before buying it. It is then up to them to decide how that information comes to bere on their decision to purchase. It just seems to me that this information is deliberately being supressed by sellers and I have to ask why? For my own good sorry but the last people to do my thinking for me were my parents and since I'm not related to the pressing dealers why should I give them the benefit of the doubt over what I do and do not need to know.

[sborock]

"The most telling evidence to the contrary I can ascertain is if that were true, why the lack of disclosure on the part of the dealers who engage in pressing."

 

I am leaving for L.A. in a few minutes, so I will read more of this when I get back, but the reason for the lack of disclosure is that, because of a very vocal minority, a pro pressed book will get a stigma attached to it that it has never had in our hobby before.

 

Have a great weekend everyone!

 

I will be working

[burntboy]

"The most telling evidence to the contrary I can ascertain is if that were true, why the lack of disclosure on the part of the dealers who engage in pressing."

 

I am leaving for L.A. in a few minutes, so I will read more of this when I get back, but the reason for the lack of disclosure is that, because of a very vocal minority, a pro pressed book will get a stigma attached to it that it has never had in our hobby before.

 

Have a great weekend everyone!

 

I will be working

 

i'm stunned that this wasn't met with a barrage of posts. maybe everyone's actually getting some work done today.

 

i find steve's observation to be a thought-provoking one, not being part of the "anti-pressing" crowd, myself.............

 

having said that; rest assured that none of the Sid's DC's coming up on Doug's site have ever been pressed......................from my hands to CGC to you....

[Red Hook]

Naw, I was out buying a book on iDVD for the Mac so I could start producing copies of Red Hook's Greatest CGC Board Pix for sale on DVD.

 

You think I'm kidding?

[jbud73]

"The most telling evidence to the contrary I can ascertain is if that were true, why the lack of disclosure on the part of the dealers who engage in pressing."

 

I am leaving for L.A. in a few minutes, so I will read more of this when I get back, but the reason for the lack of disclosure is that, because of a very vocal minority, a pro pressed book will get a stigma attached to it that it has never had in our hobby before.

 

Have a great weekend everyone!

 

I will be working

 

Have a great time in LA Steve - on your point of stigma.

 

Again a circular argeument is posited. It seems to me that the collector base at large NEVER KNEW OF THE EXTENT TO WHICH THIS WAS OCCURING - so of course there was no stigma previously. Now that information is begining to surface Steve your point would seem to indicate that you do not feel a seller should disclose this because of reprisals. I would caution the slippery slope that this position leads too. How can you gauge public opinion when only a small segment of the public know about it.

 

I cannot help it if certain individuals are getting catch with their hands in the cookie jar. I would expect some back lash, given the fact that this has been occuring without mass disclosure to this point.

 

I also cannot help but feel the whole issue of NDP brings out the condescending attitude that permeates this hobby. And you know what? This time I think its going to bite them in the I have stated that I feel NDP to be the most minor form of resto available - the lowest score if you will on Matt Nelson's scale. I can also see how others do not feel that it is resto at all and I can accept that. WHAT I CANNOT ACCEPT IS THAT NOTHING IS BEING DONE TO THE BOOK and furhter that I even if it is, I as a potential purchaser have no right know that it was done.

 

The stigma you speak of is created by those undertaking it and not disclosing it. It is their decision to cloud it in secrecy that has the greatest potential to come back and haunt them and this hobby. But I also feel the resistence to acknowledge NDP will become its own worst enemy. People will tend to distrust that which they know little about and that which has been deliberately supressed. By keeping it covert and continuing to do so by fighting, deflecting and denying, the sellers are creating their own stigma.

 

My apologies for this long diatibe in a thread devoted to the Pac books which are awesome - however to illustrate the point until full disclosure occurs, the stigma remains and I think the stigma has the potential to grow and hurt the hobby. But I didn't create the stigma Steve, it was created by those that sought to perform alterations to comic books and not disclose those alterations to potential buyers. That is bad business from any persepctive I can ascertain and it is those individuals who put the credibility of the hobby at risk for their own financial gain.

[Ze-man]

i'm stunned that this wasn't met with a barrage of posts. maybe everyone's actually getting some work done today.

Harry, color me "trying to get some work done".

 

 

 

 

I did find it curious how Steve worded his reply.

because of a very vocal minority, a pro pressed book will get a stigma attached to it that it has never had in our hobby before.

 

Well or course it carries a greater stigma NOW then ever before because until recently only a handful of people were even aware that pressing was being done to our books.

This information has only recently come to light. Pressing might be as old as the hills, but public awareness of this practice is what is new.

Where the majority of the PUBLICS opinion rests on this topic I have no idea. But obviously many of us here dont care to much for it. And if WE here are the minority Steve spoke of.. then are WE then responsible for giving pressed books a stigma?.. I think not.

The actual pressing of the books is responsible for that.

 

And if only a minority(no matter how vocal) off the collecting community views a pressed book as less then its former puffy self. Why then do the dealers care so much about what the minority thinks?

They never have seemed to care before what we think as a group,or set their policies based on minority opinion.

 

Has the minority screamed and shouted to such an extent that it has swayed public opinion unfairly, forcing sellers to alter their disclosure policy?

 

Nope

 

Has the minority screamed and shouted about wanting nothing more then disclosure about what was being done the books?

 

Yep

 

 

So for ANYONE to tell me that dealers, sellers, pressers, or for that matter CGC is not disclosing if a book was pro pressed, because the minority thinks a pro pressed book would be worth less, and carry a stigma....is just plain horse hockey.

 

I will admit that a Book, or Slab that has a pro pressing notation, or disclosure on it might not sell as well.

NOT because of how the minority might view, or complain about pressing, but because how the MAJORITY might embrace/reject such a disclosure/notation.

 

alas.. we all know the real reason here.

 

all about the money..skip.. all about the money...skip.. all about the money...skip... all about the money...skip...all about the money

 

sorry looks like we got another broken record here folks.

 

Back to the Pedigree discussion

 

Ze-

[tth2]

While I myself do not press books (I can't even press a shirt or use an ironing board!) I have had books pressed and I think my position on pressing has been clear from the beginning of this issue (I just can't remember which thread it was when I chimed in with my feelings). To me, pressing is not restoration and I do not think that removing or flattening out a surface impression /ding or a wave/ripple on a comic book is restoration (especially when done by a professional who knows what they are doing!). You are simply undoing something that was done to the book during the human handling portion, not reversing anything about the book as it looked in its original off-the-print state.

This has been a big week of revelations for me! So by my tally the two biggest SA collectors are squarely pro-pressing. No wonder CGC won't budge on this issue.

 

So Doug, would you be willing to disclose that a book has been pressed? You may believe that pressing is not restoration, and that most collectors don't care if a book has been pressed, but I would challenge you to sell a disclosed pressed blue label book and achieve the same price as you'd get for a blue label book where no disclosure of any sort is made.

 

Getting back to the oo discussion, even though Burntboy's collection didn't get a pedigree designation, it is still a major find and leaves me no doubt that similar oo runs will follow. They just have to. Harry wasn't the first guy to keep his books in meticulous condition over time and I doubt he will be the last.

There are undoubtedly major OO collections still out there. Whether they will be recognized as pedigrees, for the various reasons that I've outlined, is more open to debate, I think.

[GertHammink-migration]

jbud, you make some nice points and I you have a very nice writing style - thanks! What I have said before on other postings on this subject which no one has really taken the time to answer , agree with or disagree with is that DISCLOSURE ALREADY EXISTS. IT IS IN THE FORM OF A BLUE LABEL and all that that entails.

 

From what I have read here and what Steve the president has said is that it is congruent with CGC rules and has been congruent with CGC rules from day one. It could include pressing , it could include a number of gawd awful things as well relating to how an original owner stored the book or did with the book. What I cannot understand is why those who are against pressing always make a point of how they have a "right to know" or that they "want to know". You are right. You do have a right to know. YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW THAT EVERY BLUE LABEL BOOK COULD HAVE BEEN PRESSED NO MATTER WHO IS SELLING IT. It seems so easy to me. Assume EVERY BOOK HAS BEEN PRESSED. It doesn't matter if I buy it from Pedigree, it doesn't matter if I buy it from Heritage. it doesn't matter if I buy it from you. EVERY SELLER IS EXACTLY THE SAME. The common denominator is that all purchase blue label books and at some point all will eventually sell those blue label books. And since you or I or Heritage or Pedigree were not the original owners of the book, you have to assume every blue label book that gets bought or sold in this business has been pressed because a lineage from start to finish cannot be traced since the day it left the newsstand. It does not matter who is pressing books. It is not necessary to compile a list of every dealer or seller who has been found and proven to have sold a pressed book. Every one is the same and in a very, very rare instance unless the seller is the original owner, every one is JUST AS GUILTY BY MAKING A CONSCIENCE DECISION TO BUY AND SELL OR OWN BLUE LABEL BOOKS. Every one of them could have been pressed. There is no further discussion needed. Every blue label book could have been pressed. Continue to buy with that premise or choose not to buy or sell blue label books. THE BLUE LABEL IS THE "PROBLEM" , NOT THE SELLER. Don't make it a focus on who is doing it and who is not. If it has been going on long before CGC and since CGC until today, every seller stands on equal ground because everyone's blue label book could have been pressed. Even if pressing was deemed illegal across the globe by the United Nations, we would all have to still buy, sell and own with the assumption that every blue label book has been pressed because they are all already out in the market. But who am I ? I am just an old timer with a decent collection looking to one day get my books slabbed and cash in. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

t

[tth2]

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Hi comicworm!

[awe4one]

I am leaving for L.A. in a few minutes, so I will read more of this when I get back, but the reason for the lack of disclosure is that, because of a very vocal minority, a pro pressed book will get a stigma attached to it that it has never had in our hobby before.

 

So what is it...pressing matters to collectors or not? You can't have it both way with these circular arguments of yours. Your post suggests the lack of disclosure is on purpose? So who the hell made you all the final arbitor of what should be released to the hobby or not? Remember your company's pledge of impartiality? Maybe you need to go back and read your mission statement again or think about revising it. Might as well stop producing PLODs as well as that's one hell of a stigma...

 

You need to let collectors decided what they consider a stigma or not...not make policy to decide for them...

 

Jim

[FFB]

I am leaving for L.A. in a few minutes, so I will read more of this when I get back, but the reason for the lack of disclosure is that, because of a very vocal minority, a pro pressed book will get a stigma attached to it that it has never had in our hobby before.

 

So what is it...pressing matters to collectors or not? You can't have it both way with these circular arguments of yours. Your post suggests the lack of disclosure is on purpose? So who the hell made you all the final arbitor of what should be released to the hobby or not? Remember your company's pledge of impartiality? Maybe you need to go back and read your mission statement again or think about revising it. Might as well stop producing PLODs as well as that's one hell of a stigma...

 

You need to let collectors decided what they consider a stigma or not...not make policy to decide for them...

 

Jim

 

I think you misunderstood the question he was answering.

[awe4one]

I think you misunderstood the question he was answering.

 

No Scott, I understood the question...CGC is contributing and giving validation for dealer's nondisclosure by having the same criteria and excuse...

 

Jim

[Silver Surfer]

but the reason for the lack of disclosure is that, because of a very vocal minority, a pro pressed book will get a stigma attached to it that it has never had in our hobby before.

 

Just so we are clear are you referring about a dealer's perspective or CGC's? I assume from a dealers perspective because it doesn't appear as though CGC's parent company is too worried about any "stigma" attached to providing pressing services?

[jbud73]

Thats an interesting point, one that shares a lot in common with Scott's (FFB) analogy about steriods - if we can't regulate it then make it mandatory. The main retort I have to your arguement concerning, "Lets just assume that they are all pressed," is twofold - one they are NOT all pressed and two most people don't understand what NDP is from what it is not.

 

The second reply deals with the idea that CGC is a market force and is a step in the process of manufacturing rairty (whether real or implied). How many people buying Blue slabs today understand what is, or is not possible in a Blue Slab? What do you think the consequences to the market would be if there was widespread knowledge of the extent - currently still hard to gauge but I think its safe to say early estimates were a tad low, that NDP is occuring?

 

One thing that often concerns me when we discuss comics is how the term Hobby, is often supplanted with and used in unison with the term Market and while one surely has links to the other, I DO NOT feel that these terms are universally interchangable. So when Steve refers to STIGMA and HOBBY, he is really referring to the MARKET. It is the Market that is at the core of this whole debate. CGC is a MARKET FORCE in comics. They have established a level of credibility and manufactured rarity. It seems to me that they now what to cash in on that level of manufactured rarity to a greater degree.

 

The key is of course marketplace perception of the CGC blue label and this is really why I think disclosure is NOT voluntarily forthcoming. In order for this policy to work - a mass or high quantity of individuals actually must NOT understand whats going on. The perception of the relative rarity and existence of HG comics needs to endure. As Pov likes to illustrate 'the rarity and odds of a comic surviving for 40 or more years in an undisturbed state that garners a 9.2 - 9.6 grade is truly astonishing.' Think about what would happen if people in the marketplace universally understood that these odds and rarities were being specifically manipulated through alterations (whether you consider it resto or not) to certain (again the volume of success is debatable but we know what is possible) books that were once inferior to their virgin conterparts, but now command the same status.

 

You see I think this is what Bob Storms is worried about - CCG and to a lesser extent CGC are with a very delicate balance in the marketplace. If you've already got the goods, as Bob does, its understandable why he is not thrilled about them with the status quo.

 

From my perspective I see the whole NDP scenerio as manipulation of the MARKET at the expense of the HOBBY.