Saving the Hobby - This is the Answer

[delekkerste]

Contrary to popular opinion on these boards, barring a miracle, I don't think the current format allows for price reductions.

 

I think there is room for price reductions, though there would be some sacrifice in quality both in terms of the paper stock as well as the kind of talent the publishers are able to attract. However, a rollback in prices would make it even tougher to distribute comics outside of specialty shops (due to even lower margins for newsstands and retailers and by making the product even flimsier than it already is).

 

Heidi MacDonald has written in CBG about her "chunk" theory of entertainment (not sure if that's the exact name for it). It basically says that consumers like to devour their entertainment in chunks, and the 32-page monthly pamphlet (which takes anywhere from 5 to 20 minutes, tops, to read) doesn't fulfill that requirement. I just picked up Avengers #65 yesterday and read it...I liked it, but I'll still be reading the same storyline through the end of the summer (it's the first of a six-parter).

 

Of course, I could collect all 6 issues before reading them (requiring 6 trips to my local store), but who has the patience for that? Or, I could wait for the TPB. The problem I have with the current TPB format is that it is not priced competitively enough. A TPB containing Avengers #65-70 will likely retail for $14.95 (and are not exempt from taxes in NYC!) On the other hand, I can purchase the issues individually for $13.50 ($10.80 with my 20% discount which is not applicable to TPBs) and periodicals are not taxed in NYC! So, my true cost for the TPB is $16.18 versus $10.80 for the comics themselves (50% higher!) Plus, I get a free "call option" buying the pamphlets as they may actually appreciate in value due to collectibility whereas TPBs historically have not.

 

I would be very much in favor of switching the entire medium over to TPBs or another format that is both more consumer & retailer friendly (due to durability, profit margins, chunk theory, etc.) However, as long as there are two competing formats (pamphlets vs. TPBs), I am, in most cases, forced to continue buying the pamphlets.

 

Gene

[Kevin Boyd]

Hmmm. Interesting.

 

My only comment would be are you sure that those are the reasons that they aren't interested in the comics? I'm not a 7-15 year old kid so I can't say yay or nay to those reasons.

 

But after watching my 5 year old nephew do the same thing I think it might be more because in the social world of children, video games (and therefore video game magazines) are perceived as being cool. While he is aware of comics and likes superheroes he has no interest in comics if we see them when we are out (which is rare) unless I say "Look Michael they have comics. Do you want one?" at which point he'll occasionally pull one out but he usually goes right back to the video game magazines - which of course, I won't buy for him.

 

However, if I'm reading a tpb at the cottage, he wants to look at it and will spend hours looking it over. He drags his Essential Spidey volumes with him everywhere he goes in his knapsack along with his figures and cards. When he went to the convention I put on last weekend he spent his time looking for Yu-Gi-Oh which he couldn't find and watching the 1966 Batman movie which was playing on someone's tv/vcr. My brother bought him some He-Man comics because he likes the show, but he wasn't really excited.

 

I find that kids are aware of what's around but focus in on what their peers want. In the case of most boys that is videogames, pokemon, yu-gi-oh and action figures.

 

Kev

[Kevin Boyd]

Here in Ontario, new comics are taxed 15%, the same rate as tpbs and hardcovers.

 

However, I get a discount across the board on all items I order, the cost difference between the original and the tpb is negligible as both are discounted and both are taxed at the same rate.

 

Back issues are exempt for the most part (at least from the 7% federal tax).

 

Kev

[joe_collector]

Kids like what kids like, and I remember growing up and having relatives and their friends push me onto coin collecting, which was the rage when they were growing up. I got coin books, price guides, those blue fold-out coin holders, etc. for Xmas, and they didn't interest me in the least.

 

Comics were the happening area, and virtually every kid I knew read them. It wasn't peer pressure as such, just the times reflecting the environment. Corner stores being the hub of kid life, comic story and marketing focus, fewer media options, lower technology, greater literacy and empahsis on reading, etc.

 

Now it's the era for videogames to rule, and when these kids are grown up and pushing those on their kids, a new trend will emerge and the kids will move away from the "last generation influence" and onto one to call their own.

 

That's just the way things work, and nothing ever remains on top forever, especially when it comes to the next generation of youngsters.

[FlyingDonut]

My 7 year old has grown up in a house FULL of comics. Comics everywhere. Comics to the rafters. He can read any comic he wants. He goes to conventions with me EVERY month. He goes to comic stores with me almost every weekend. He has an allowance (not much, but enough) that he can spend on ANYTHING he wants.

 

What does he buy? Yu-gi-oh and Yu-gi-oh magazines. Does he read comics? No. Does he like them? Not really. Is he aware of comics? Yes - he is a RABID Batman Beyond fan and a Justice League fan. He also LOVES Kim Possible and Samurai Jack, so the artform is not lost on him. He reads "The Secrets of Droon" books and the Lemony Snicket Baudelaire books (which, by the way, are tremendous - everybody should read them).

 

Why doesn't he like comics? I asked him once. He said they weren't fun...

[chrisfuccione]

So instead of having the Chicken little thinking I've seen on this thread(The sky is falling! The sky is falling!) I am wondering what youv'e all done to help the hobby. Have you given any duplicats to local kids who might be into collecting? Have you taken any newbies to a coin sshow or shop. Have you shown anyone any part of your collection.(I did that a few weeks ago. I showed a friend of mine my collection and he got the bug. A few nights ago he had me pick him up a couple of Linclon Whitman folders and we spent the night going through my doubles to fill it for him. I hope he gets the bug!). So once again what have you done to help spread the hobby. CHRIS

[Kevin Boyd]

Why doesn't he like comics? I asked him once. He said they weren't fun...

 

I'm speechless. I guess that just about sums it up.

 

Kev

[FlyingDonut]

But, you know what he does like to read? Barks Duck books. He laughs out loud.

[COI]

Of course, I could collect all 6 issues before reading them, but who has the patience for that?

 

This is the only way I read new books, and could not do it any other way. For me, I have no patience in reading an issue, and waiting another 30+ days for the next part. By the time the next book comes in, I would have forgotten what happened in the last issue and have to go back anyway. I have books waiting for me, and I go pick them up every 6 months or so. If I didn't do this, I wouldn't be reading any new stuff at all. It has now been about 8 months since my last pick up.

[Kevin Boyd]

I've noticed that the old Disney cartoons were a real hit with my niece and nephew when I got them on DVD. Peter has a box full of Disney comics for a $1 each that are just sitting there at Paradise Comics, I should get some for them and see what they think.

 

Thanks,

Kev

[joe_collector]

>>So once again what have you done to help spread the hobby.

 

Nothing, as it's not my job or duty to make kids think a certain way or buy a certain product, just because I like it. Free will and choice are tops in my book, and I'm not gonna be that kind of blind adult (that I knew when growing up) who force-feeds their collecting views on the next generation.

 

I still remember that shining day when my parents and relatives got the picutre and bought me a ream of comics, boxes and an Overstreet for a birthday. That old OS was a prize possession, and rapidly become dog-eared from use.

 

That's what I'd like to do, feed and nurture interests, not quell them.

 

IOW, just let kids be kids.

[COI]

Why doesn't he like comics? I asked him once. He said they weren't fun...

 

I guess there's no competing with the stuff available to kids these days.

 

But he's only 7. I didn't read my first comic until I was 8 or 9, so being surronded by comics might eventually change his mind. I'm sure when he's a few years older, he'll put down the cards and actually read some comics.

[murph0]

I think most of the mainstream books, with a few minor exceptions. Are far too complex for younger kids to read and comprehend or understand what's going on. Marvel doesn't really have much in the way of a book that's just fun and kids can read for action or humor. Some 10/11/12 year old isn't going to want to read about Peter Parker's troubles dealing with the death of his parents. Maybe if they want to reach kids they should put out less structured books that are more fun/exciting and appealing to youth, preferably with self-contained stories rather then arcs.

 

Brian

[joe_collector]

As some others have pointed out, Marvel and DC do not want the kid market anymore (Jemas stated this quite clearly in an interview) and are concentrating on older fans and providing content and design targetted directly at them, with a commensurate price tag.

 

That's why you see so many ret-con stories, "look to the past" origins, revamps, slice-of-life flashbacks, and the consistent use of old characters and concepts within the "hot-selling" Ultimate line.

 

Grey beard collectors don't want anything new, and seem to just want a new take on a tried and true formula. Marvel and DC are simply filling the demand for this, since it continues to pay the bills.

[murph0]

And thus why there's not a lot of young kids picking up books. If this were to ever change, who knows if it would work or not. But as for now, it'll be difficult to get any young kids so we'll have to hope these "kids" get interested later in life when they can understand the story lines and have the patience for "arcs".

 

Brian

[Kevin Boyd]

Well... some of the new Marvek 'Tsunami' books, as unappealing as they are to ME, do look like they were designed to appeal to some younger readers. This is particularly true of Namor and Sentinel that seem to be aimed at 12-16 year olds.

 

Marvel seems to be targetting teenagers and young adults, DC older fans.

 

I have no idea who image tries to appeal to. Dark Horse seems to go after Star Wars and Buffy fans of all ages, with a healthy number of books aimed at the manga/anime fans.

 

Crossgen seems to want the teenager demographic as well.

 

Each company has books with some general appeal.

 

But aside from Archie and DC's Cartoon Network line, I don't see many books being aimed at children. And while I do see that as a failing of the industry, I do see that as a sign of the times. If kids were picking up those types of comics then there would be more of them available.

 

The fact that they are not very successful seems to indicate that, as many of us suspect, the kids comic market is virtually non-existant - for many of the reasons stated in previous posts.

 

As much as I am not fond of the art style, I thought that the issue of Peter Parker that shipped this week was pretty self-contained (even though it is a two-parter) and was straight-forward enough to appeal to the 7-12 year old set.

 

Kev

 

 

 

[joe_collector]

I don't see that being a real possibility, as the current comic book format devoured by kids is the cartoon. It's usually weekly, fast-paced, use self-contained stories, and are free, making the format a great combination for today's youth.

 

I was in the old comic shop last week, and there were some kids on there buying cards (as usual) and the owner was gabbing about the Justice League cartoon. The kids were hyped and love the show, even though they'd never pick up a comic on a dare.

 

This may not sit well with old-fashioned collectors, but the Blockbuster "top children's rentals" list usually has their share of Spider-man and X-Men cartoons, not to mention a bunch of best-selling super-hero carts, and DVD/video packs, and that's where I see the market going in the future.

 

Accept and promote the different media, don't ignore it.

[FlyingDonut]

I don't see that being a real possibility, as the current comic book format devoured by kids is the cartoon. It's usually weekly, fast-paced, use self-contained stories, and are free, making the format a great combination for today's youth.

 

I was in the old comic shop last week, and there were some kids on there buying cards (as usual) and the owner was gabbing about the Justice League cartoon. The kids were hyped and love the show, even though they'd never pick up a comic on a dare.

 

Exhibit A being my son.

[Zonker]

A TPB containing Avengers #65-70 will likely retail for $14.95 (and are not exempt from taxes in NYC!) On the other hand, I can purchase the issues individually for $13.50 ($10.80 with my 20% discount which is not applicable to TPBs) and periodicals are not taxed in NYC! So, my true cost for the TPB is $16.18 versus $10.80 for the comics themselves (50% higher!) Plus, I get a free "call option" buying the pamphlets as they may actually appreciate in value due to collectibility whereas TPBs historically have not.

 

I would be very much in favor of switching the entire medium over to TPBs or another format that is both more consumer & retailer friendly (due to durability, profit margins, chunk theory, etc.)

 

Gene, Kev,

One thing that gets overlooked when discussing TPB versus monthly magazines is that 99% of the time when we're discussing TPBs, we are discussing reprints of the monthly books. The creative costs have already been paid by the monthlies, apart from a very small residual payment to the creators for the reprint. I would imagine that $14.95 TPB would be more like $24.99 if all the creative costs had to be re-couped from a first-printing TPB.

 

Anyone have an example of an all-original TPB? I'm thinking of original graphic novels in hardback form that typically are the equivalent of 2 to 3 issues of monthly continuity. If I recall correctly, such books cost around $20?

 

Z.

[Kevin Boyd]

I didn't forget, as I am not advocating the elimination of monthly comics. I don't see them as the future of the hobby but they are natural loss-leaders for the eventual collected edition.

 

As long as we have comic shops and 25-55 year old collectors (of which I am one) slavishly picking up the monthlies then the cost of collected editiond will be cheaper.

 

However, the JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice hardcover would be an excellent example of a new mainstream graphic novel. The eventual softcover graphic novel release will be in the same price range of similar reprint collections.

 

Sin City: Family Values was an all-new TPB that was not a reprint collection.

 

Kev