Saving the Hobby - This is the Answer

[14 of spades]

hey folks,

 

some (many) collectors have noted that they believe the future for comics looks bleak and have suggested that it is just a matter of time before comics fall by the wayside. i however believe there is something that could definitely save the hobby, and propel it into greater popularity than it even currently receives.

 

no one will deny the current confidence CGC has helped to instill into the comic market. yet many collectors have mentioned how it would be beneficial if there were another grading company so that no one company would monopolize, and at the same time, be accountable for its shortcomings.

 

imagine the comic world with THREE grading companies. in card collecting, there are three leading and respected grading companies (BGS, SGC and PSA). if comics were to have the equivalent, it would lead to a growth in the hobby. i'm not talking about all those backyard and fly-by-night grading companies that exist in card collecting - i'm talking about three bona-fide comic grading companies.

 

die-hard collectors would thus have that much more to collect. imagine some spidey completionist - wouldn't he want to acquire three high grade copies of his favorite issue, all graded by different companies? imagine trying to collect a NM copy of your favorite SA key, graded and slabbed three different ways by the three industry leaders in grading? for some issues, that would prove to be an incredible (and fun!) challenge, even for someone with all the money in the world!

 

so do you think this scenario would benefit the hobby?

[joe_collector]

It would definitely benefit the collector segment, as more competition would translate into lower prices, lower lead-times and the ability to grade some of those "non-key" issues that are simply not economically feasible right now.

 

As for it saving the current comic industry, I don't see how, as high prices, adult-centric stories and production values, decreasing relative value to games and DVDs, and low distribution are killing the biz, not CGC.

 

Having 3 grading companies is not gonna make a new $3.99 comic book any more attractive to the average person.

[Mister_Comics]

I believe the only way to kick-start this hobby again is to have another silverage revival. Return to the old original volumes, characters, and type of stories. If whats out there now isn't doing the hobby any good, go back to what worked.

[clobberintime]

I don't think having all those different grading services has helped the baseball card market.

[drbanner]

imagine some spidey completionist - wouldn't he want to acquire three high grade copies of his favorite issue, all graded by different companies?

 

I doubt that...I believe what happened in the card/coin markets was that one company gained a reputation of being the "strictest" graders, so the collectors flocked to get the highest graded copy from that company. Once they get the best-known Super Picky Grading Company (SPGC) copy, that CGC best-known they bought last year wouldn't seem so great anymore, now would it!?!?

[14 of spades]

i dunno. if i was a big fan of a particular sports star (say barry bonds), i think it would be cool to have a BGS 9.5, SGC 98 and PSA 10 of his rookie card, even though i know the BGS will probably be in the best shape, followed by the PSA and SGC

 

but maybe that's just me.

[delekkerste]

As Joe_Collector has pointed out, what ails the hobby is not a lack of third-party grading services. There are simply a lot of unfavorable cultural, technological, demographic, etc. trends combined with poor stewardship of the hobby by the leading publishers.

 

There's only a very small segment of the hobby that buys third-party graded books, so adding competitors is not going to help the hobby much as a whole. Also, the majority belief is that CGC is plenty strict in their grading...sure, they could have better disclosure, but that is not enough of a niche for a competitor to come in and seize onto, IMO. Adding more competitors to the mix may also cause all the companies (including CGC) to go out of business, which would definitely undermine the hobby. Finally, I think dealers and collectors are slowly becoming aware that the sharp decline in the slabbed premium for Bronze and Modern books (let's face it - most high grade books in existence are from this period) makes most comics unworthy of slabbing for resale. I expect the volume of submissions to CGC to peak and decline going forward, if they haven't already.

 

Gene

[clobberintime]

It is hard to say how many high grade old books are out there that are worth slabbing but at some point we will run out of those books. I think the lowest cost to slab is about $25 so unless you are talking the very expensive books, it would not be a good idea to pay to slab a book from 1966 up unless it is better than vf as most books command no premium unless they are ultra high grade.Being that there is a finite number of older books worthy of cgcing, I have always thought that cgc was intended to make money by slabbing new books and getting people to pay $30 for a month old comic that got that miraculous 9.8. Othewise cgc would be out of business in a few years when the high grade old stuff ran out. People still do this - and it's even worse for those 10.0s even if they are only a couple months old or are plentiful in 9.6/ 9.8.Has anyone been able to track prices on 9.8/10.0 books that bring a big price at first but fizzle afterwards? Would love to know what has happened with that Black cover Spidey that was such a big deal.

[seank]

How about to save the hobby a larger selection of kid-friendly comics that adults (ie, their parents) can also enjoy that are sold in venues where non-comic fans are likely to find them such as grocery stores and airport newstands.

 

How about more one-part or two-part stories instead of these monster 12-parters with multiple crossovers that make it impossible for people to get involved with a character or book.

 

How about more variety in books instead of one spandex-clad slugfest after another? This could help to give the medium some credibility.

 

How about more emphasis on story and art instead of "Instant collector's item!!!!" (Is anyone rereading their Spawn #1s? Nope. How abour rereading Miller Daredevils or Barks duck stories? I bet you are.)

 

I think Gemstone, with its introduction of Disney books into newstands and with the manga format books coming out is going to do more in the long run for comics than any other publisher. They're putting books with known and loved characters into places where non-comic fans will find them and they're also publishing stories in a format that is easy to read in public or in bed or on the beach or just about anywhere. Kids who start with those Disney books will probably graduate to other comics.

 

[Kevin Boyd]

I don't see how having more grading companies is going to save the hobby.

 

The hobby is declining because fewer people are buying comics - new and old.

 

The only way to jump start the hobby IMO is to make the ART FORM more: (a) accessible and (b) affordable.

 

Graphic narrative is a medium for ALL AGES - there are comics appropriate for children, for teens and for adults.

 

North America has to lose it's stigma that comics are merely a children's art form and look at the exciting and diverse line of books that are created by adults for adults.

 

The whole Rawhide Kid fiasco did bring that point home. 95% of north americans equate comics to a children's art form that is virtually dead. And why is it dead? Because kids don't want comics. It's not that they are overly expensive (which they are) or inaccessible (which most are), it's that they just aren't interested. If they were, then their parents, who can afford to buy them hundreds of dollars of toys and cards per year would be buying the comics for them. Which is pretty much the way that most of us started. Someone bought us a comic and we liked what we saw (probably because we didn't have Playstations to compete against).

 

So what do you have left? You have teens who are interested in comics and anime (or at least a certain % are) and a growing number of adults who buy comics - including just about everyone who is going to read this post.

 

To be frank, as a 33 year old man, I don't want to read the same type of new comics that I did when I was a kid. I remember them fondly, and I enjoy re-reading them and remembering how much I liked them, but what I want out of a new comic book isn't what the 10-year old Mev from 1979 wanted. I want sophisticated stories, I want plot, I want design and detail, and I want a better presentation than a cheap newsprint comic.

 

If I want to get another adult to pick up and read a comic I don't give him the latest X-Men and say check this out. I lend him a TPB of Sandman or Preacher or Y or Marvels or Watchmen or The Golden Age or Kingdom Come or any number of EXCELLENT graphic novels that have been published over the last 15 years. Hopefully he likes what he sees and will either borrow more from me or go to his local bookstore or comic shop to get them. He no longer has the time or the patience to wait each month for the next issue of the soap opera because it's too expensive for what he gets out of it (like 5-10 minutes of incomplete reading), but those collected editions have the perceived value of being COMPLETE, like a novel or a movie.

 

And it is there, my friends, that I feel the future of the hobby lies - the graphic novel/collected edition. A point that I've made before.

 

If I like the Sopranos, do I pay X $ per month to get HBO and watch the episodes when they air or do I wait and buy season three of the Sopranos on DVD? Personally, I would rather spend the money on the set so that I can watch them whenever I want. Comparitively, do I spend $4 a month on Origin and get frustrated waiting for the next issue to appear or do I wait six months and get the TPB for $20? No contest in my mind.

 

Somehow we need to hit three groups:

 

1) People who used to read comics back to read comics. It is very hard to get an adult who has never read a comic to understand the logic of the medium.

 

2) Getting teens who haven't read comics to check them out. Teens are the ideal target group because they get the medium quicly and they are generally open to the fantasy elements common in most comic books.

 

3) Getting people who do read comics now to investigate the rich history of the medium and start perusing the back issue bins.

 

And how do we get them to read them in the first place? GO OUT AND SPREAD THE WORD. Tell people about how good something is. SHOW THEM.

 

They might actually LIKE what they see and they might grow to LOVE the medium as I believe most of us do and become BRONZE, SILVER and GOLD comic collectors.

 

Which is what sets us apart from the coins and stamps and cards of the world. The need for additional grading companies is only a peripheral need. We have a grading company if we need to use it.

 

Kev

 

 

[Zonker]

Great stuff, Kev. You're on to something here:

 

Somehow we need to hit three groups:

 

1) People who used to read comics back to read comics. It is very hard to get an adult who has never read a comic to understand the logic of the medium.

I think the Hardcover & TPB programs in Waldenbooks and Barnes&Noble are part of a fine strategy to do this, and the Big 2 are now doing an okay job on that front.

 

2) Getting teens who haven't read comics to check them out. Teens are the ideal target group because they get the medium quicly and they are generally open to the fantasy elements common in most comic books.

Here is where the Big 2 are failing miserably.

 

While it may be an unpopular opinion, I think we need to print the monthlies on cheaper paper to lower the cover price. The good stuff can then get reprinted on better paper in the TPBs mentioned in category 1) above. Think about it: the comics most of us got hooked on in the Silver or Bronze Ages were all printed on newsprint. If it was good enough for us...

 

Also critical in getting the price down is getting the volumes up. The Big 2 must find a way to re-invent the so-called newstand distribution to get the books where the people are, since only a fraction of the uninitiated will ever seek out a comics shop. Get 'em in grocery stores. Build a comics vending machine that can be installed in movie theatres, subway stations, airport terminals. In general: put comics where the people are!

 

Next, we must get out of the syndrome of having everything be a maxi-series in waiting. Yes, have story arcs, but also have many done-in-ones. I think Gaiman's Sandman had about the right mix. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that non-comics readers (even females, believe it or not) were introduced to the series through one of the standalone stories, such as A Dream of Cats or Midsummer Night's Dream, and then liked what they saw and sought out the Doll's House, A Dream of You, Seasons of Mist multi-parters. Heidi McDonald in a recent CBG talks about the need for getting a substantial "chunk" of story for your several dollar investment. Too many current monthly comics seem like only appetizers.

 

Finally, I think the Big 2 ought to not cannabilize their monthly books in favor of event mini-series. That's one thing I like about the Loeb/Lee Batman run: it is not an event limited series like the Long Halloweens, instead it is done within the normal monthly book. It sets the expectation that the monthly books are themselves something special, and worth the trip in to the store every Wednesday.

3) Getting people who do read comics now to investigate the rich history of the medium and start perusing the back issue bins.

A personal belief of mine is that the best way to turn casual readers into fans and collectors is to expose them to the rich back story of the current characters. What got me hooked was the great 52 page Giants and 100 Page Super Spectaculars from DC in the early 1970s. Mixed in with a new story in current continuity would be an obscure 6 to 10 page Golden or Silver Age story. Made me really curious to know more about the history of the characters.

 

DC is doing some of that with their replica editions and faux replicas of 80-Page Giants, but they make the mistake of using the expensive paper and not having a tie in to current continuity.

 

You wouldn't want all comics to be this way, but I'd like to see room made in certain books like Action Comics, Detective Comics, JSA, Amazing Spider-Man, Uncanny X-Men, etc. for some vintage short-short reprints such as:

- The Spectre by Siegle & Bailey

- Dr. Fate by Fox & Sherman

- Newsboy Legion by Simon & Kirby

- Batman & Robin by Jerry Robinson

- Dr. Strange by Lee & Ditko

- Classic X-Men by Claremont & Bolton

- Nick Fury by Steranko

- Challengers of the Unknown by Kirby & Wood

- Manhunter by Goodwin & Simonson

- Adam Strange by Fox & Infantino/Anderson

- Golden Age Hawkman by Kubert

- Captain Marvel Jr by Mac Raboy

- The Ray, Black Condor, Uncle Sam by Lou Fine

 

Or as a minimum, try back-up reprints as a feature in the Annuals some year. But get 'em on cheaper paper and into the grocery stores where people can find the dang things.

 

Cheers,

Z.

[Kevin Boyd]

Thanks, Z. I could discuss this all day long...

 

1) The hardcover program is great - EXCEPT, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the hardcovers are covered in shrink-wrapped plastic. Not exactly conducive to browsing and impulse buying.

 

2) I agree that they are failing miserably on this. And I agree 100% that the books need to be where the people are - I just don't think that where they are is exactly the ideal place for the outmoded pamphlet style comic book. Perhaps what's needed is the return of digest-sized comic reprints. I had high hopes for the backpack Marvels format - if it was in color and on newsprint for $3-5 then it would have been perfectly suited for entry-level fans.

 

What was good for us MIGHT be good for the next generation but only if - and there are too many IFs for my liking - the price was lower, they were on newsprint, they were distributed by people that don't want to distribute them anymore (I don't want to keep flogging that horse!), the stories were self-contained, etc.

 

What I see more likely is this: market comics to teens as you market storybooks to kids. Make the format portable but clear. Affordable but readable. Get them in the Borders or Barnes&Nobles (or for us Canucks the Chapters and Indigos) and into the spaces where kids and teens go to buy books.

 

My problem with the DC Millenium comics and the faux Annuals is that they are good but somewhat expensive and not done for the entry level reader but for the Silver Age fan. A friend of mine had a great talk with Mike Carlin in Chicago, and Mr. Carlin more or less admitted that DC's strategy is to target the older DC collectors and keep them interested with silver age reprints and toys and statues. That they had pretty much given up on trying to get kids in. The Batman/Superman/JLA Adventures comics were being bought by mostly adults, not by kids.

 

Kev

 

 

[joe_collector]

>>Because kids don't want comics. It's not that they are overly expensive (which they are) or inaccessible (which most are), it's that they just aren't interested. If they were, then their parents, who can afford to buy them hundreds of dollars of toys and cards per year would be buying the comics for them.

 

 

This is kind of flawed logic, especially given the "sticker shock" that most adults have when they see the outlandish cover prices on today's comics. It's all about value, and it's just not there with comics, compared to toys and movies.

 

In fact, I'd estimate that most kid's toys have actually declined in price (taking inflation into account) over the years. For a niece's gift, we just bought a double-pack of Barbie adventure sets (pet groomng and animal zoo) for the equivalent of $8 US and I did a double-take at how inexpensive it is for the array of items you get. At that price, we were also able to get a DVD movie within our gift allotment.

 

Compare that against 6-7 comics and you'd have to be a maniacal comic addict not to see where the true "kid value" resides.

[Kevin Boyd]

Perhaps. But if kids wanted them I believe that parents would get them, as parents seem to have a hard time saying no to kids these days.

 

Toys can be manufactured for next to nothing in third world countries. Same with cards. Comics can't because they are created by people who need to get paid, paper costs have actually increased as well.

 

You are correct about perceived value though. $3-5 for 32 pages (20 of story) is not worth the cost. However, I think that $15-20 for 160-200 pages of comics is perceived value.

 

Those essential volumes are great deals - 20 comics for $15. Best deal in comics. We need more like them.

 

Kev

[joe_collector]

Yep, and your DVD box set analogy is a sound one. I just think that comics compete with other media for dollars, and when it comes to a kid wanting a toy, a movie and some comics, and the parent has $20 to spend, comics are gonna get the short end of the stick every time.

 

Nothing exists in a vacuum, and if a parent leans towards toys or movies as far better values, not even a comic-reading kid is going to turn his nose up at some superhero action figures or a nifty wide-screen DVD of Spider-man.

[Kevin Boyd]

Just to follow-up:

 

I want to be clear that I feel that there is no inherent "kid value" in pamphlet style comic books any longer. Comics have grown out of being a disposable medium (as they once were), and the costs of producing the format are prohibitive to the consumer.

 

Contrary to popular opinion on these boards, barring a miracle, I don't think the current format allows for price reductions. Better to shift the comics into a less disposable, more durable, differently priced formats such as digests, pocket books, tpbs, etc. that are less volatile than a formatting style (the comic pamphlet) that is not used by any other media.

 

Better to shift up (magazines, tpbs) or down (digests, pocket books)

 

Kev

 

 

[joe_collector]

Comics are dead, super heroes aren't. That's the key.

[Kevin Boyd]

I don't disagree. There is simply too much competition for the dollars spent on children for comics to be a real option without an improved sense of value on the side of the consumer. God knows the insane amounts of money spent on videogames for kids these days.

 

That's why I think comics should shift more towards the parent's book-buying budgets. Little Johnny's mom might be more inclined to buy that $15 Essential Spider-Man volume along with the latest Harry Potter book than buy him a bunch of $3 comics.

 

Kev

[Mister_Comics]

One thing I've noticed while at a KayBee Toys store. They have magazines about video games and the kids in the store thumb through them. But not through the comics there. I've seen this same thing at our local grocery store. Racks full of magazines and kids looking through the mags while the turning wire rack full of comics is ignored. I go over to what is on the rack of comics and I see why the kids don't touch the comics. Mostly stories that are continued into other comics, serious type stories, and characters that I never heard of. Not to mention the price of the comics. I see why kids are not interested in comics. The comics are aimed at the adult comic collector not the kids. The stories are too complex for the kids. Kids don't want to read some continous story line that can't possibly be followed. They want to read something thats more simplistic. Hero beats villain in one issue type comics. Kids get bore pretty fast. When ya have to read a bunch of issues just to see the hero beat the villain. I call that not aiming at the reader. Thats aiming at making more money. The comic book industry is digging its own grave and they are to dumb to see it. They need to change.

[Kevin Boyd]

Wow. Now there's a statement I don't really want to go along with.

 

The new comic pamphlet is in trouble, worse trouble than ever, and it has always been struggling, but I wouldn't say that it is dead.

 

Super-heroes have discovered a second life in films, toys, etc. which is great if people were looking at their roots - which they aren't. Although regular books with those characters featured do sell reasonably well.

 

But I do think that the graphic narrative format has a purpose beyond simple monthly pamphlets.

 

Kev