RockMyAmadeus Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 hours ago, revat said: I agree with this. Just sell it as is, with good pictures. Make no claims about it yourself, let the people decide for themselves based on available information. Even if YOU personally thought it was undergraded or overgraded, there's not really any reason the potential buyer should trust the biased opinion of the seller to begin with, that's the point of the 3rd party grading and providing good pictures. You can't sit around worrying that every buyer is as knowledgeable and has the same priority set and risk aversion level as you do, there's not enough time in the day. Think about it this way. You own a comic book store or convention booth. You bought a bunch of slabs from a collection. Some are PGX, which is not ideal, but its fine. You throw them up on the shelf for sale, with a sign that says 'slab sales are final'. You personally don't trust PGX, but are you gonna tell every prospective buyer about every flaw with each PGX comic? That's insane. Let them inspect it, then they can decide. I would allow any and all customers the right of inspection of the book outside the PGX slab, and even help them remove it from that slab, if they so desired. If they're ok with it in the slab, I'm ok with it. Otherwise, I agree completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the blob Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, ClearShot said: No, but the President of CBCS was CGC's first President (for 8 years), and then he worked for Heritage for 5 years. That might have something to do with Heritage thinking they're not sketchy. From an antitrust perspective, maybe they can't flat out ban competitor's certified books, thus they sell the cbcs books, but perhaps they won't sell PGX because they honestly believe it is a far inferior product and they don't want to associate their auctions and sales with them if someone comes back with a restored book, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Get more for your PGX books! Take em out and sell em raw!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lions Den Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 On 10/17/2018 at 1:57 PM, TwoPiece said: Let this thread die. Going once...going twice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosconi Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 On 10/17/2018 at 9:37 AM, ExNihilo said: Pretty sure that Stan Lee is forged as well. This type of fraudulent activity would be organizational suicide for any other company, but somehow PGX still has suckers collectors submitting and believing they are a viable slabbing option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 4 hours ago, the blob said: Good question. Maybe they don't think CBCS is as sketchy? It's owned by Becket, it's kind of real. PGX is in someone's basement, no? Let's face it, there are two legitimate grading services and one sketchy one that's main purpose is to slab, thus falsely attempt to legitimize, his own agenda and inventory, neither of which does anyone any good or instills any confidence in the product within the slab for anyone that is aware of PGX dynamics. Two services that serve the public and one that exists to serve himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 32 minutes ago, mosconi said: This type of fraudulent activity would be organizational suicide for any other company, but somehow PGX still has suckers collectors submitting and believing they are a viable slabbing option The Lee was a horrible enough forgery, by itself. Not even a close miss, and I can tell you who the forger is because I've been watching his other Lees on ebay for awhile now. The added Ditko in silver graduated the attempt from the ridiculous to the sublimely ridiculous. Some forgers are beyond stupid. They'll copy online exemplars, verbatim, not even knowing if they're copying a forgery erroneously mislabeled as genuine, whether by mistake or intentional (a spike; a deliberate error, to see if anyone copies it!). Then they'll "learn" that, and keep forging using someone's obvious error or spike. Most forgers have never been near Stan Lee to see how he really signs and the tendencies the path of his pen takes as he moves it across the medium! Stupid. And PGX is criminal for abetting the legitimacy of that fraud. Raze, 1950's war comics and mosconi 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 hours ago, the blob said: From an antitrust perspective, maybe they can't flat out ban competitor's certified books, thus they sell the cbcs books, but perhaps they won't sell PGX because they honestly believe it is a far inferior product and they don't want to associate their auctions and sales with them if someone comes back with a restored book, etc. They're both inferior to the premier service, CGC, the CGC brand should fetch a premium with confidence as part of that price! But I can't say that I've ever seen an instance of outright fraud, or anything resembling an attempt at it by CBCS, which seems to happen with PGX far more frequently than pure chance should dictate (like out Lee/Ditko "signed" 31). I would love to see CGC partner with an autograph authentication service for unwitnessed signatures. To offer that for comic hobby/autograph collectors.. I think that only CGC could work out the details and partner up adequately to do that 100% right, and again, augment confidence in it under the CGC brand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the blob Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, James J Johnson said: They're both inferior to the premier service, CGC, the CGC brand should fetch a premium with confidence as part of that price! But I can't say that I've ever seen an instance of outright fraud, or anything resembling an attempt at it by CBCS, which seems to happen with PGX far more frequently than pure chance should dictate (like out Lee/Ditko "signed" 31). I would love to see CGC partner with an autograph authentication service for unwitnessed signatures. To offer that for comic hobby/autograph collectors.. I think that only CGC could work out the details and partner up adequately to do that 100% right, and again, augment confidence in it under the CGC brand! Like the guys Pawn Stars bring in who compare signatures and say "looks authentic to me"? As if someone can't practice a signature to make it look right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, the blob said: Like the guys Pawn Stars bring in who compare signatures and say "looks authentic to me"? As if someone can't practice a signature to make it look right? Harder than you think to create a convincing forgery, not just to fool layman, but the people who have seen thousands of that signer's autographs and inscriptions! Even the master forgers, the guys that can get oh so close, have their tells! Now here's where a lot of authenticators go wrong. They know a dozen or so autographs very, very well. They really have that autograph clocked. Not just in general, but they can tell you what year or thereabouts, it was signed, as signatures and their tendencies do morph chronologically. So someone that knows Lee as if it was his own signature and can recognize when the vibe is off, usually doesn't know Ditko, or MacFarlane, or everybody else like he does Lee, and maybe a dozen or so other guys. And then that authenticator has to go to his exemplar file for comparisons. This is not always a good way to authenticate. You need an expert in that signature, or signatures. Someone that doesn't need an exemplar. Someone that can look at a Lee sig and knows instantly if the vibe is on or off. Plenty of these guys exist. If you want a Beatles piece authenticated, there are plenty of guys who can do it, but only one, Frank Caizzo, whose COA for a Beatles piece is diamond! He can tell you if it's the Beatles, or one of the roadies, or a good forgery, in most cases, if a good forgery, he can tell you who the forger is!! That's how well he knows the Beatles. Our own Zipperer is like that with John Glenn and other select aerospace autographs. There's plenty of other services who authenticate them but if you get "Big Z's" COA, it's diamond, and he doesn't need exemplars either, the vibe is good to him or not! Point is, no matter how close you can get, what services you can slip it by, you're not going to fool the master experts in their expertise of select signatures. There's a lot to a signature. A basic course in handwriting analysis would show just how much there is. You have the general architecture of the signature. The baseline, The spacing, lift points, pressure, it's endless. Everyone's signature is unique when you consider all the elements together and everytime you add another letter to a forgery, there's more to go wrong, another detail to get wrong. Then, a forger not only has to nail the details but the chronological tendencies. You can't forge 1980 tendencies on a 1970 medium! And what about the flow? The speed. Shakiness? There's just too much to go wrong that a real expert will nail as a tell, even if to most, it looks "right". Edited October 23, 2018 by James J Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 18 minutes ago, the blob said: Like the guys Pawn Stars bring in who compare signatures and say "looks authentic to me"? As if someone can't practice a signature to make it look right? To be fair they will give a percentage like I am 85% sure this is authentic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the blob Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 35 minutes ago, James J Johnson said: Harder than you think to create a convincing forgery, not just to fool layman, but the people who have seen thousands of that signer's autographs and inscriptions! Even the master forgers, the guys that can get oh so close, have their tells! Now here's where a lot of authenticators go wrong. They know a dozen or so autographs very, very well. They really have that autograph clocked. Not just in general, but they can tell you what year or thereabouts, it was signed, as signatures and their tendencies do morph chronologically. So someone that knows Lee as if it was his own signature and can recognize when the vibe is off, usually doesn't know Ditko, or MacFarlane, or everybody else like he does Lee, and maybe a dozen or so other guys. And then that authenticator has to go to his exemplar file for comparisons. This is not always a good way to authenticate. You need an expert in that signature, or signatures. Someone that doesn't need an exemplar. Someone that can look at a Lee sig and knows instantly if the vibe is on or off. Plenty of these guys exist. If you want a Beatles piece authenticated, there are plenty of guys who can do it, but only one, Frank Caizzo, whose COA for a Beatles piece is diamond! He can tell you if it's the Beatles, or one of the roadies, or a good forgery, in most cases, if a good forgery, he can tell you who the forger is!! That's how well he knows the Beatles. Our own Zipperer is like that with John Glenn and other select aerospace autographs. There's plenty of other services who authenticate them but if you get "Big Z's" COA, it's diamond, and he doesn't need exemplars either, the vibe is good to him or not! Point is, no matter how close you can get, what services you can slip it by, you're not going to fool the master experts in their expertise of select signatures. Sure, but a generalist looks at examples and compares. I understand, a grading service could put together 6 or 7 people who really know comic sigs, but verifying the third tier guys they see less will be tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, kav said: To be fair they will give a percentage like I am 85% sure this is authentic. That's typically the norm for an opinion. A percentage of assurity or doubt, a ratio is best to give than to deal in absolutism, unless we're talking about those God-awful Lee and Ditko signatures on that PGX authenticated dreck. I'd go about a one in a million for authentic on that one (cue Jim Carey saying, "so you're saying there's a chance?") Edited October 23, 2018 by James J Johnson kav 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, James J Johnson said: That's typically the norm for an opinion. A percentage of assurity or doubt, a ratio is best to give than to deal in absolutism, unless we're talking about those God-awful Lee and Ditko signatures on that PGX authenticated dreck. I'd go about a one in a million for authentic on that one (cue Jim Carey saying, "so you're saying there's a chance?") Ditko was quite clear that he never had and never would sign books. This alone should clue in PGX but nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, kav said: Ditko was quite clear that he never had and never would sign books. This alone should clue in PGX but nope. I've heard rumor that he made a few exceptions over the 50 year haul. But if he ever really did, it's certainly one to several, and I'd venture a guess that whomever has one would put it up for sale about as frequently as the Dentist puts the Church Action 1 up for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 On 10/17/2018 at 1:40 AM, mosconi said: You obviously have no clue to PGX's extensive fraudulent history, nor do many other collectors in the hobby such as yourself. And I doubt you even looked at RMA's link to some of PGX's notorious past activities http://www.justafanboy.com/PGX/ Wish you the best of luck with a restoration check on the FF#1 Here's a blast from the past. Hilarious forged Ditko signature authenticated by the highly respected experts at PGX So what was the ask or result for this whimsical fantasy piece? $1000 or more? Actual market value for a double defaced 2.5 reading copy of AS 31 = about $40? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 In my best Dan Ackroyd voice: "Oh sure! Sure! Ditko's carrying around a silver sharpie with him to sign comics with". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, kav said: and you are no Jack Kennedy Top two famous last words: 1) Jim Lonborg, Winter, 1967: "I don't ski fast enough to get hurt". 2) Lloyd Benson, 1988 debates, "You're no Jack Kennedy". kav 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, kav said: Good thing you mentioned Lloyd Bentsen or nobody would have known what I was talking about Just a small blip on the back of political history. Like a pimple on Pike's Peak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devco Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 This is why PGX is anathema. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
