Interesting article on art collecting and investing 0

[vodou]

59 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

I tend to look at buying art (and any other collectible) like this: the price you pay is for how much you will enjoy owning/viewing/appreciating the item. If I buy a commission for $400 (like one I had done at Heroes this year as example), I am OK with the price and the possibility of how it will turn out and write off the cost as part of the hobby. If I get money back out of it someday great, if not, that is fine as well as I don’t really have a plan for this stuff 20 years from now – likely some will get sold and some will go to my kids if they appreciate it. For larger purchases, ROI comes into the picture of course. But not from the perspective that I need to see a gain as I would in an investment. If I buy a piece of art for $3K I would only do it because I love the art and plan to keep it. If I would sell, I am OK with some loss on the piece as the difference would be the cost of owning the piece and the enjoyment would be worth it to me. All that said, I want every piece of art I buy to be worth more money than I paid, and significantly more would be great … but that is not an expectation I hold out for. I know I am on the plus side of many pieces I have bought and on the minus side on many pieces I have bought and that is OK because it is a hobby. Check back with me in 20 years if/when I am selling and I will let you know how I feel if comic art has become nearly worthless and I take a bath on everything I own.

This makes perfect sense and I'm fine with that as far as it goes (posting one's true feelings on a BB) but...is this really what people in honest relationships are telling their significant others is their perspective and long range plan as shared assets are being consumed in this manner? I mean a $400 commission that give you $400 of value is probably net negative if it costs ($250) in less than happy wife currency, no?

Take the above and apply it to a collection of many $400 commissions, many other $400 pieces, or a handful of whale (five and six figure) pieces, whatever, adding up to the many low/mid six figure and seven collections (on paper at least) that exist in this hobby. While individual collectors can tell themselves that same "it don't matter, I loves it all" story (and probably be lying to themselves: at that aggregate level), can the same still be said for the Missus too? Is that six and seven figure cost basis completely reflected in "enjoyment value" alone (inclusive of all the "sharers" of the expenditure), netting to zero cost or still positive (even wildly positive as many quietly and not so quietly hope and pray for)?!! I think not.

[Lucky Baru]

We should all watch the documentary "The Price of Everything".  From what has been written about the film, it is an eye-opener about the art world, the people that invest in it, what drives the pricing of the pieces, and how it is now driven by speculation.  Sound familiar?

[vodou]

1 hour ago, Lucky Baru said:

We should all watch the documentary "The Price of Everything".

From the tone of this Variety review, I agree and eagerly await it's debut on Netflix...in about two years ha ha.

Edited October 26, 2018 by vodou
clarity

[suspense39]

1 hour ago, vodou said:

From the tone of this Variety review, I agree and eagerly await it's debut on Netflix...in about two years ha ha.

If im not mistaken, I read somewhere that it will be on HBO mid November

[JadeGiant]

3 hours ago, vodou said:

This makes perfect sense and I'm fine with that as far as it goes (posting one's true feelings on a BB) but...is this really what people in honest relationships are telling their significant others is their perspective and long range plan as shared assets are being consumed in this manner? I mean a $400 commission that give you $400 of value is probably net negative if it costs ($250) in less than happy wife currency, no?

Take the above and apply it to a collection of many $400 commissions, many other $400 pieces, or a handful of whale (five and six figure) pieces, whatever, adding up to the many low/mid six figure and seven collections (on paper at least) that exist in this hobby. While individual collectors can tell themselves that same "it don't matter, I loves it all" story (and probably be lying to themselves: at that aggregate level), can the same still be said for the Missus too? Is that six and seven figure cost basis completely reflected in "enjoyment value" alone (inclusive of all the "sharers" of the expenditure), netting to zero cost or still positive (even wildly positive as many quietly and not so quietly hope and pray for)?!! I think not.

This seems to presume that the “significant other currency” is always negative on hobby purchases. If that is always the case, your problem might not be in buying art – time to look elsewhere for the source of the problem IMO. I think there is another presumption – that the average collector has a 6-7 figure cost basis for a hobby. That’s not my cost basis in a year (or any close range of time). Average Joe collector doesn’t have to explain such large expenditures on art IMO. I have friends that spend more than I do in art at the golf course, country club fees, new equipment, golf vacations, etc. The enjoyment factor is enough in those cases to justify the expenditures because their significant others appreciate the enjoyment they get out of it.

[vodou]

8 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

This seems to presume that the “significant other currency” is always negative on hobby purchases. If that is always the case, your problem might not be in buying art – time to look elsewhere for the source of the problem IMO. I think there is another presumption – that the average collector has a 6-7 figure cost basis for a hobby. That’s not my cost basis in a year (or any close range of time). Average Joe collector doesn’t have to explain such large expenditures on art IMO. I have friends that spend more than I do in art at the golf course, country club fees, new equipment, golf vacations, etc. The enjoyment factor is enough in those cases to justify the expenditures because their significant others appreciate the enjoyment they get out of it.

We've done polls around here many times, six figure FMV collections (at least in the eye's of their owners) are everywhere Anybody that says six figures up/down or washed away when the basement flooded doesn't matter to their SO is fulla it - excepting aging billionaires on their fifth marriage to Miss Bimboette 2016. Don't believe me, watch how her attorney plays it when Big D time comes, art collection (yes, even comic art) is considered an asset. It would take a lot of green fees to get up in that area, no? I guess those exclusive clubs, 20k, 50k, etc annual memberships are out there but then, I think we're getting back into billionaire territory again, certainly multimillionaire, which is not even a bit close to everywhere on this board. Snarky to push that back on me, as you don't know me ( ) but nonetheless...not an issue for me, my SO knows all and is cool with all - including it all disappears like a penny stock delisted. Probably because all of it came to me long before she did. How many others in the same SO don't care boat though? I await that poll

Negative SO currency isn't a given but I think the bigger the aggregate number is the more likely it is. Lots brag about how much their SO has no idea about how much they have in the hobby. Er, that would be true on every single board for every single collectible category out there...not just this one re: comic art That's why my original post used the word honest.

[JadeGiant]

4 minutes ago, vodou said:

We've done polls around here many times, six figure FMV collections (at least in the eye's of their owners) are everywhere Anybody that says six figures up/down or washed away when the basement flooded doesn't matter to their SO is fulla it - excepting aging billionaires on their fifth marriage to Miss Bimboette 2016. Don't believe me, watch how her attorney plays it when Big D time comes, art collection (yes, even comic art) is considered an asset. It would take a lot of green fees to get up in that area, no? I guess those exclusive clubs, 20k, 50k, etc annual memberships are out there but then, I think we're getting back into billionaire territory again, certainly multimillionaire, which is not even a bit close to everywhere on this board. Snarky to push that back on me, as you don't know me ( ) but nonetheless...not an issue for me, my SO knows all and is cool with all - including it all disappears like a penny stock delisted. Probably because all of it came to me long before she did. How many others in the same SO don't care boat though? I await that poll

Negative SO currency isn't a given but I think the bigger the aggregate number is the more likely it is. Lots brag about how much their SO has no idea about how much they have in the hobby. Er, that would be true on every single board for every single collectible category out there...not just this one re: comic art That's why my original post used the word honest.

Cost basis (your first comment) and FMV aren't always the same. 

No snark intended and nothing being "pushed back on you" ... anyway. Not looking for an argument. 

 

[vodou]

56 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

Cost basis (your first comment) and FMV aren't always the same. 

No snark intended and nothing being "pushed back on you" ... anyway. Not looking for an argument. 

 

Good, I'm not either. Maybe your collection didn't cost and/or isn't worth six/seven figures but that actually makes you an outlier for vocal and poll taking folks around here over the age of 35. I seriously can't imagine any SO from a middle/upper middle class situation being okay with that six/seven figure collection being pure enjoyment alone for the collector. Or rather, anybody else want to step up and say that's how it is in their home? Can we get more than one or two? This is what I'm seeing of the universal US set (including but not exclusive to comic/illustration art collectors):

Net Worth without Home Equity

Age of Householder	Median Net Worth	Median NW excl. Equity
35 – 44		$18,197
45 – 54:		$38,626
55 – 64:		$66,547
65 – 69:		$66,168

[vodou]

And then there's this:

What is the average net worth of an American?

Americans' average wealth tops $301,000 per adult, enough to rank us fourth on the latest Credit Suisse Global Wealth report. But that figure doesn't tell you how the middle class American is doing. Americans' median wealth is a mere $44,900 per adult -- half have more, half have less.Jun 11, 2014

Middle class Americans: Not so wealthy by global standards

 

https://money.cnn.com/2014/06/11/news/economy/middle-class-wealth/index.html

Now there's plenty of arguments that this misrepresents due to the skew (pull) up from the ultra-wealthy where median vs. mean gives a better picture, but even letting that slide...the rosiest condition is that a basic six figure collection (exactly $100k) would be 1/3 the net worth of the average. Would any SO not be very interested and protective of that asset or the investment diverted to it to get there? That's my argument, relative to that asset size. Otherwise I totally agree that a handful of $400 commissions is exactly the same as a handful of weekends at the golf course with buddies, something which most SOs would invite as when the cat is away the mice are free to play (too!)

Edited October 26, 2018 by vodou
clarity

[pemart1966]

15 hours ago, BCarter27 said:

That's true. Paint is much more light-fast. And UV glass/plexi has been proven to not protect as much as advertised.

I have stuff up in my small office with windows, but no direct sunlight day after day.

Back to the article... The "who else collects this artist" bit was a great point. Also makes you think about who your greater fool is going to be later.

I always grimace a little at "collect what you love" regarding anything over about $500. Imo, it really should be "from the pool of high-liquidity artists, buy what you love otherwise you can kiss that money goodbye."

Anyone know where or when this guy's gallery is opening in the city? I don't see much online.

Even if there's no direct sunlight in the room the lights in the ceiling or plugged into the wall may also be having a negative effect on the art.

[Lucky Baru]

5 hours ago, vodou said:

From the tone of this Variety review, I agree and eagerly await it's debut on Netflix...in about two years ha ha.

You could just go to a movie theater in select cities.  It opened today in NYC, Los Angles, Minneapolis, Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas, Miami, Silver Springs, MD, Brookline, Portland, Philadelphia, Seattle, and some cities in Canada.  Also, there are community screenings from Oct 2018 to Feb 2019 in Phoenix, Savanna, NYC, Summit, NJ, Providence, Houston, Palo Alto, Sag Harbor, and New Haven...

or

3 hours ago, suspense39 said:

If im not mistaken, I read somewhere that it will be on HBO mid November

 

ha, ha.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Lucky Baru

[vodou]

10 minutes ago, Lucky Baru said:

You could just go to a movie theater in select cities.  It opened today in NYC, Los Angles, Minneapolis, Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas, Miami, Silver Springs, MD, Brookline, Portland, Philadelphia, Seattle, and some cities in Canada.  Also, there are community screenings from Oct 2018 to Feb 2019 in Phoenix, Savanna, NYC, Summit, NJ, Providence, Houston, Palo Alto, Sag Harbor, and New Haven...

or

 

ha, ha.

You fronting the upcharge for me to start getting HBO? Naw didn't think so, ha ha