What do dealers pay for the keys? 1 1

[Robot Man]

On 3/25/2024 at 12:08 AM, BA773 said:

Nothing they are just motherf*chers who steal you... had a knowledge who was one of them and in one of our disscusion he told me: i pay 1, i sell 100.

Frankly, if you sell to a dealer for less than you think it’s worth, that is on you. Keep in mind, dealers have expenses and might sit on the book a while to sell it. But, yeah, I have gotton some real low offers. I just don’t sell to them…

[alexgross.com]

On 3/28/2019 at 12:13 PM, comicdonna said:

I sold Gator about 2/3's of my Action run in 2013, that won a best GA set award.  (Keys and non keys) Basically, I submitted my ask for each book, leaving a little room for profit.  Rick  sent the money, with bulk packaging instructions, and he paid for the shipping.  It was a great selling experience for me, with zero regrets.  I feel  I turned out way better, than if I chose to consign to an auction house.   

 

If I had  a key book to sell at a con, I would go to Rick's booth first.

yes i sold a large number of books to rick as well several months ago. after reaching out to a number of dealers, he made the best offer and was easiest to deal with. 

the state of the market is obviously huge in determining what a dealer will offer you for your books. when it's hot, i'm sure it will be more generous, and when it's post-bubble bursting horror show like the last two years, it's the opposite of generous. 

what was aggravating is the double standard that many of them use. all but two of my 15 books were white pages and several were pedigrees. almost all were major SA keys. when you are buying these from a dealer you will certainly be paying more. but when trying to sell them, you won't be offered more than if they were C/OW pages, especially in this lousy market. perhaps if the market was on fire that would have been considered a bit more. maybe. 

another bit from the dealer's playbook is that they will always try to make you tell them what you want for the books. it's like they went to the same school and were taught this on day one. 

rick actually gave me an offer instead of worrying that i'd shop it to another dealer and try to get more. it's sad that dealers i have bought from for many years could not step up a bit more with me when i needed to sell. 

but the good news is that rick @G.A.tor is a class act. if i need to sell big books in the future and do not decide to go the auction route, rick is the first dealer i would reach out to. 

[Robot Man]

This lady was buying books for 2-3 cents each and reselling them for a nickle.

photo from Bob Beerbohm’s Facebook page. 

[wombat]

On 3/25/2024 at 10:52 AM, alexgross.com said:

what was aggravating is the double standard that many of them use

I'm sure for some dealers the discussion on how the market is doing is very different depending on if you are buying or selling. 

[Bookery]

Also, with these periodic threads about dealers (usually in the negative), what exactly is a "dealer" anymore, anyway?  All but a few of my customers are dealers of one sort or another.  I have several folks who come in nearly every day to see what I've put out so they can buy it and flip it on eBay, Facebook, Whatnot, etc.  I have one gentleman in his 80s who buys cheap older books and sells them in lots at local auction houses.  I have show dealers buy from me regularly.  I have another customer who buys rough books, repairs them and sends them to CGC to get Conserved grades, then flips them.  I have another customer who is quite good at finding under-priced items in dealers' stock and then flipping them to other dealers (nobody can keep track of everything).  I don't have a problem with any of this... heck, my business depends on them!  If you've been selling on eBay for years, regardless of if you tell yourself it's just from your own ever-shifting collection, then you are a dealer too.   

[jimjum12]

On 3/25/2024 at 1:52 PM, Bookery said:

regardless of if you tell yourself it's just from your own ever-shifting collection, then you are a dealer too. 

Unless, of course, we give them away, then we're just real cool, or maroons. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Peachpit]

I was offered 14000$ less than FAIR MARKET Value

 

[wombat]

On 3/29/2024 at 9:25 AM, Peachpit said:

I was offered 14000$ less than FAIR MARKET Value

 

What was the book worth? 

[Peachpit]

FMV=51000$

 

[shadroch]

On 3/29/2024 at 7:32 AM, Peachpit said:

FMV=51000$

 

You had a book worth $51,000 and were offered $37,000 for it? That's about 67% of its value, money in your pocket today. I've no idea what you are complaining about.   Do you think a dealer should give you 100%?  90%?   What book was it?  There are $50,000 books that are red hot and others that aren't. 

What should a dealer pay you for a $51,000 book? What do you think is a fair profit for the person laying out $37,000? With the market falling as it is, how long before that $51,000 book is down to $48,000? You can put $37,000 into several ETFs and get 10% dividends, so what is a fair number, in your opinion?

[MattTheDuck]

I wonder if we shouldn't stop using the term "Fair Market Value."  If that's what prices listed here and there are supposed to represent, an offer of less would have to be "unfair."  It's too bad that all those lower-priced sales aren't necessarily reflected in published pricing.

OTOH, I'm a "market" guy and people should charge what the market will bear.  If you're running a business, you have different metrics than a collector does.  The idea of a market is to recognize those different motivators and hope that the two can meet somewhere both are satisfied if not pleased.  I agree that if you accept a price for one of your books that's unsatisfying, that's on you.

[Hudson]

On 3/25/2024 at 10:52 AM, Robot Man said:

This lady was buying books for 2-3 cents each and reselling them for a nickle.

 

 

That is a pretty good profit margin (IMO).  66 - 150%.  I would take that all day long.

I remember hearing Warren Buffett talk about when he was 7 years old, he would be a six pack of Coca-Cola for 25 cents and then sell each bottle for 5 cents.  Thus he was making a 5 cent profit on a 25 cent investment.  20% is not bad, but not as good as buying comics at 2 - 3 cents and selling them for 5 cents.  Then again, every bottle of coke is the same (whereas some of those comics may have gone unpurcahsed at 5 cents).

I think many people in this thread have made good points.   IMO a dealer has a right to make a profit.  Heck, I want dealers to make a profit, as I am not a dealer; I am a collector.  As a collector, I want dealers to continue to seek out books for me to purchase and profit gives them that incentive.  Now, I think SOME dealers are "greedy", however, every buyer and seller has a choice on who they choose to do business with and who they choose to avoid.  There are lots of dealers out there to choose from, as well as many other resources available to sell your books (if you choose to do so).

I don't know the exact price point (percentage) a dealer should pay for any given book, however, I do know that there are costs associated with buying, holding, and selling books.  These costs include both real costs (fees, storage, transport, shinkage, etc) as well as less obvious costs (the opportunity cost of doing something else with those funds while they hold onto the book in question - which could either go up or down in value during the time it is held).

There are many things to factor in when considering the OP's very good question, and I am sorry I cannot provide a more solid answer.  Thankfully, I am not planning to sell any books in the near future, so perhaps I will leave this dilema to those who will be left with the burden of my collection once I go to that great comic con in the sky.

[Hudson]

On 3/29/2024 at 11:12 AM, MattTheDuck said:

I wonder if we shouldn't stop using the term "Fair Market Value."  If that's what prices listed here and there are supposed to represent, an offer of less would have to be "unfair."  It's too bad that all those lower-priced sales aren't necessarily reflected in published pricing.

 

I agree with you!

Just yesterday I looked on one site that lists comics and then shows their "Record Sale" and "Minimum Value".

I assume the "Minimum Value" is what they consider the lowest price someone could buy a copy of whatever book they are looking at for.

So, out of curiousity, I checked on a book I was looking for to see what they considered FMV (or at least the "Minimum Value").  They listed the "Minimum Value" as $150.   A few more clicks on the laptop and I found and purchased a copy for $24. 

 

[wombat]

On 3/29/2024 at 10:32 AM, Peachpit said:

FMV=51000$

 

What do you think would have been a fair offer? Or said another way what % profit do you think is fair for a dealer to expect?

[fastballspecial]

There are all types of levels to this. 

At shows you are dealing in cash and there is no 1099 for the most part. Cash will make a buyer take 
less every time. Make sure to read that again because its true.

Very hot keys will cause some dealers to over pay. Trust some hot keys will not even sell at a show priced
well sometimes. It just depends on who shows up. As other dealers have discussed with me high dollar
keys have slowed in sales compared to say a $20 key that will blow out the door in the first hour
of the show. 

I have a very strict policy when buying that has done
me well for 20 years. That being said I have walked away from deals that I know I would have made money
on, but the labor and capital involved were just too high for me to justify the headaches. This is another mistake
I have seen dealers do. And my offer is usually less if a buyer wants me to make a snap decision in the middle 
of a show as well. 

I've found in my experience being totally honest up front about capital, storage, values and profit really makes
the transaction go a lot smoother. Like I said earlier if the seller and I are too far off in values I walk away and
give him some other dealer names they can try. I have regretted passing on some deals over the years, but
in the end you have to really understand the work involved. Over the years I have had buyers come back to me
after turning down my initial offer after talking to other dealers. Being up front I think has helped in all those
cases.  

Here is something interesting I have found at my shows as I promoter that I never considered. Buyers are
showing and selling their keys to other buyers at the show. They don't like the offers dealers give them so
they wait around for buyers to ask. Nothing I can do about it as a promoter, but the seller came up
and thanked me at last show for making him $4k. Just seemed odd to me, but I bet it goes on a lot. 

 

 

[Bookery]

On 3/29/2024 at 10:32 AM, Peachpit said:

FMV=51000$

 

Well, it's likely that really isn't FMV (again, whatever that means).  No dealer prices a book at $51,000... that tells me you're looking at an auction result.  If that's a single result, by definition, FMV would be somewhere below that, since $51k is the highest price anybody was willing to pay at that moment in that forum (if it's a big auction house like Heritage, that means it's the most money even the "big boys" who play in that arena were willing to pay, all across the planet).  If you're looking at an average price for a given period (a month, a year?), then it's still the average price the big auction house players were willing to pay.  Also, did that price represent a book that's been escalating, or one that has been falling in price (most likely the latter if you're looking at recent results).  Also, is your copy identical to the one that sold.  Or is it white pages vs. off-white copies?  Even with equal grades, different buyers will accept or reject certain flaws.  I have one customer of golden-age who will turn down any book with a staple-pull, regardless if it looks otherwise near mint.  The next guy may be fine with a staple-pull, but won't touch a book with a corner-bend.  But they may grade the same.

It's likely if Heritage sold a big book in its auction for $51k, the realistic price for a show or shop dealer is probably going to be closer to $45k.  If you're just going to charge the same as a billion-dollar auction house, why should a customer buy from you?  Now your $37k offer is actually more like 82% of FMV.  And that's assuming the book can be turned quickly before it possibly drops even more.  Maybe a dealer is content with a quicker turnover at $40-$42k.  I could make nearly $2k on that $37k just by putting it in a CD right now... with no risk whatsoever.  There are bonds and stock dividends out there that pay even more.

Maybe $37k is low... if it's a truly hot book like SpMan 1... but it's probably not ludicrously low.  If it's a golden-age book that's showy but is going to take a while to move, then it's probably more than fair.

[revat]

On 3/25/2024 at 12:08 AM, BA773 said:

Nothing they are just motherf*chers who steal you... had a knowledge who was one of them and in one of our disscusion he told me: i pay 1, i sell 100.

Actually I think a very very large percentage of comics are bought/sold this way.  And its fine.

We talk a lot about keys here a lot, but they actually make a a very small percentage of comics created, bought, or sold. 

Tons and tons of comics are bought for literally pennies (or less) on the secondary market, and then sold as $1 or $2 books.

Or people buy big lots and essentially pay for the keys and get the rest of the bulk common books as free extras to sell in the dollar bins.  So they buy 10 books to sell at 20-60% profit and 500 books to sell at 100x (or more) profit.  

 

Who decides what is too much profit? So its ok for a guy to buy 2000 books for a penny each, and sell one of those books for $20.  But the same guy can't buy 1 book for $5 and sell it for $25?  Or buy a book for $7000 and sell it for $8500?

 

My philosophy is if nobody is lying or putting undue pressure, make your offers and take it or leave it, no hard feelings.