How should Kevin Feige handle actors leaving the Marvel Cinematic Universe? 0

[fantastic_four]

WARNING:  This thread will be inherently filled with spoilers about Avengers: Endgame, so if you haven't seen it, close the thread out now.

Chris Evans and Robert Downey, Jr. had been wanting to stop reprising their roles as Captain America and Iron Man for many years before Endgame, so it's not surprising that it was their last film.  What is surprising is that Feige allowed the Russos to kill off Stark and effectively eliminate Cap by having him live out his life with Peggy Carter in the past and be elderly in the present time of the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU).  They were great ways to phase the characters out that I very much enjoyed in the moment.

However, I don't know that I understand the approach.  Is the plan going forward to eliminate any character when the actor playing that character wants to leave the MCU?  I'm guessing that Mark Ruffalo is out as soon as his contract is up.  I say that because I saw him on "Real Time With Bill Maher" back in 2012 when the first Avengers movie came out, and when Bill Maher said something like "superhero movies aren't my thing" Ruffalo replied something to the effect of "yeah, they're not mine either."  I suppose there are a few ways to take that remark, but I just took it to mean he's not a fan of the genre, but that he took the work because it pays well and might help make him famous enough to widen the number of roles he can get.  And who knows, maybe he didn't like it before being the Hulk but he does like it now, so maybe he re-signs.  But if Ruffalo leaves, do we get rid of the Hulk, too?  If Tom Holland wants to do dramatic roles in a few years, do we whack Spider-Man?

Continuity in Marvel comics has always been challenging in that every time a new author comes in he tends to have his own ideas that often contradict or run roughshod over the ideas of previous authors.  As a result, we get an idea like Bendis healing Victor Von Doom's facial scars, turning him into a good guy, and donning the Iron Man armor in the "Infamous Iron Man" series, which was almost immediately followed up after Bendis left Marvel by the next writer re-scarring Doom's face and re-installing him as dictator of Latveria.  Character continuity can be jagged like that as writers come and go on the character, but at least the writer CAN try to be consistent, and at least the artists CAN try to make Tony Stark or Peter Parker look like the previous artists have tried to draw him.  In the case of films, there's no choice--when an actor drops out, you either replace him or get rid of him in some way, most likely by killing them off.  So far I don't think any MCU films have replaced anyone, right?  If anyone knows of an example where they've replaced an actor please do point it out.  I wouldn't be shocked if it has happened, but I don't recall it happening yet.

Is tying actors to characters really a sustainable model?  If you're going to get rid of a character every time an actor drops out, it's inevitable that a reboot will occur.  Yes, you could do something lame like go BACK to 1950 and drag Cap back to 2020 before he's old and come up with some bizarre reason why he no longer looks like Chris Evans, but is it credible to come up with some lame ret-con to explain why a new actor playing a character is now in the MCU?  No.  You've got to eventually reboot, otherwise it gets REALLY lame like comics did after the death of Superman, where you know that a character death means nothing because they'll find a way to bring them back eventually.  So I would argue that Feige's mostly likely plan is an eventual reboot.

Is that a great plan?  The comics really haven't done this.  Marvel has toyed with alternate universes in the comics many times, most famously with the Ultimates line.  But accepting that writer rollovers have made the continuity jagged, there's still only one main universe that Marvel characters in the comics have been in that the company calls Earth-616.  Why wouldn't Feige follow that same model?  Periodic reboots seem VERY lame.  But I get the challenge...Robert Downey, Jr. IS Iron Man to a significant portion of the people who were introduced to the characters through the films.  Chris Evans IS Captain America.  So it does make a certain amount of sense to retire the character when the actors are ready to quit.

I think Feige has made a mistake.  Don't eliminate characters when actors leave, just cast a new actor.  It's the James Bond model, or if you prefer the soap opera model--we all get that this is fiction, so when an actor leaves just re-cast them.

[@therealsilvermane]

18 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

WARNING:  This thread will be inherently filled with spoilers about Avengers: Endgame, so if you haven't seen it, close the thread out now.

Chris Evans and Robert Downey, Jr. had been wanting to stop reprising their roles as Captain America and Iron Man for many years before Endgame, so it's not surprising that it was their last film.  What is surprising is that Feige allowed the Russos to kill off Stark and effectively eliminate Cap by having him live out his life with Peggy Carter in the past and be elderly in the present time of the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU).  They were great ways to phase the characters out that I very much enjoyed in the moment.

However, I don't know that I understand the approach.  Is the plan going forward to eliminate any character when the actor playing that character wants to leave the MCU?  I'm guessing that Mark Ruffalo is out as soon as his contract is up.  I say that because I saw him on "Real Time With Bill Maher" back in 2012 when the first Avengers movie came out, and when Bill Maher said something like "superhero movies aren't my thing" Ruffalo replied something to the effect of "yeah, they're not mine either."  I suppose there are a few ways to take that remark, but I just took it to mean he's not a fan of the genre, but that he took the work because it pays well and might help make him famous enough to widen the number of roles he can get.  And who knows, maybe he didn't like it before being the Hulk but he does like it now, so maybe he re-signs.  But if Ruffalo leaves, do we get rid of the Hulk, too?  If Tom Holland wants to do dramatic roles in a few years, do we whack Spider-Man?

Continuity in Marvel comics has always been challenging in that every time a new author comes in he tends to have his own ideas that often contradict or run roughshod over the ideas of previous authors.  As a result, we get an idea like Bendis healing Victor Von Doom's facial scars, turning him into a good guy, and donning the Iron Man armor in the "Infamous Iron Man" series, which was almost immediately followed up after Bendis left Marvel by the next writer re-scarring Doom's face and re-installing him as dictator of Latveria.  Character continuity can be jagged like that as writers come and go on the character, but at least the writer CAN try to be consistent, and at least the artists CAN try to make Tony Stark or Peter Parker look like the previous artists have tried to draw him.  In the case of films, there's no choice--when an actor drops out, you either replace him or get rid of him in some way, most likely by killing them off.  So far I don't think any MCU films have replaced anyone, right?  If anyone knows of an example where they've replaced an actor please do point it out.  I wouldn't be shocked if it has happened, but I don't recall it happening yet.

Is tying actors to characters really a sustainable model?  If you're going to get rid of a character every time an actor drops out, it's inevitable that a reboot will occur.  Yes, you could do something lame like go BACK to 1950 and drag Cap back to 2020 before he's old and come up with some bizarre reason why he no longer looks like Chris Evans, but is it credible to come up with some lame ret-con to explain why a new actor playing a character is now in the MCU?  No.  You've got to eventually reboot, otherwise it gets REALLY lame like comics did after the death of Superman, where you know that a character death means nothing because they'll find a way to bring them back eventually.  So I would argue that Feige's mostly likely plan is an eventual reboot.

Is that a great plan?  The comics really haven't done this.  Marvel has toyed with alternate universes in the comics many times, most famously with the Ultimates line.  But accepting that writer rollovers have made the continuity jagged, there's still only one main universe that Marvel characters in the comics have been in that the company calls Earth-616.  Why wouldn't Feige follow that same model?  Periodic reboots seem VERY lame.  But I get the challenge...Robert Downey, Jr. IS Iron Man to a significant portion of the people who were introduced to the characters through the films.  Chris Evans IS Captain America.  So it does make a certain amount of sense to retire the character when the actors are ready to quit.

I think Feige has made a mistake.  Don't eliminate characters when actors leave, just cast a new actor.  It's the James Bond model, or if you prefer the soap opera model--we all get that this is fiction, so when an actor leaves just re-cast them.

Disagree. I love this real time, TV show-ish, grow with the actors world built by the MCU. To simply recast Tony Stark would be a huge mistake and belittle what RDJ has done with the role. Tom Holland will be around a long time. The actor himself said he'd like to play Spider-Man forever, and probably will. The MCU won't reboot. They'll eventually give us someone else in the Iron Man armor and we'll probably love it. And Marvel has enough major characters left, between the current remaining Avengers and the FF and the X-Men, to last another 20 years or so.

[fantastic_four]

3 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

The MCU won't reboot. They'll eventually give us someone else in the Iron Man armor and we'll probably love it. And Marvel has enough major characters left, between the current remaining Avengers and the FF and the X-Men, to last another 20 years or so.

Your third sentence quoted above contradicts your first, doesn't it?  Seems like you're saying they've got plenty of content and characters to last for 20 years, THEN they reboot.  Which I agree is credible, and now that Feige has allowed major characters to be killed off, so likely as to be inevitable.

Unless you're suggesting that Disney just says "We've won Hollywood everyone, thanks for watching!" and disbands Marvel Studios at that point.  SPOILER:  they won't.  

Edited July 11, 2019 by fantastic_four

[theCapraAegagrus]

If you thought that Iron Man's and Captain America's 'deaths' were surprising, then you're as naive as the parents who took their 10-year olds to see Endgame during opening weekend, and expecting their hearts not to be broken.

You don't setup a decade of stories the way Kevin Feige did without a payoff. If Marvel Studios didn't convey any stakes - then the MCU would be dead instead of a few characters.

These films weren't "Ruffalo's thing" until he saw how Ruffalo-like the Hulk actually is. He didn't like the idea of mo-cap until he realized that he is the Hulk (aside from Ferrigno's voice). He was imperative to getting Brolin to sign on as Thanos.

If Feige doesn't 'allow' actors and their characters an out - then they won't be able to land high-profile actors and actresses to play them (the heroes). Recasting the big characters doesn't play to keeping the MCU continuous.

Robert Downey Jr. is Iron Man. He cannot be recast for a long, long, time.

[Turtle]

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

I think Feige has made a mistake.  Don't eliminate characters when actors leave, just cast a new actor.  It's the James Bond model, or if you prefer the soap opera model--we all get that this is fiction, so when an actor leaves just re-cast them.

This has already happened quite a few times in the MCU.

Mark Ruffalo took over for Edward Norton (Hulk)

Josh Brolin took over for Damian Poitier (Thanos)

Don Cheadle took over for Terrence Howard (War Machine)

Zachary Levi took over for Josh Dallas (Fandral)

and Howard Stark has been played by 3 different people (I only know John Slattery's name off the top of my head).

 

All that to say that it's not like Feige refuses to cast new actors.  It's been done before. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

6 minutes ago, Turtle said:

This has already happened quite a few times in the MCU.

Mark Ruffalo took over for Edward Norton (Hulk)

Josh Brolin took over for Damian Poitier (Thanos)

Don Cheadle took over for Terrence Howard (War Machine)

Zachary Levi took over for Josh Dallas (Fandral)

and Howard Stark has been played by 3 different people (I only know John Slattery's name off the top of my head).

 

All that to say that it's not like Feige refuses to cast new actors.  It's been done before. 

I seriously had to Google who the F this is.

All of those replaced actors were one-and-done, though. Once you get a few movies deep, they've shown that commitment to continuity is important, and made it work for most parties. It's why Sif was completely excluded rather than recast in Thor: Ragnarok.

[Turtle]

5 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

I seriously had to Google who the F this is.

All of those replaced actors were one-and-done, though. Once you get a few movies deep, they've shown that commitment to continuity is important, and made it work for most parties. It's why Sif was completely excluded rather than recast in Thor: Ragnarok.

Poor Warriors Three.  Always forgotten. 

Didn't even get a proper sendoff...just unceremoniously killed in Ragnarok and no one seemed to care.  Not even Thor. 

It was strange to me that Sif was never mentioned past Dark World after being an important supporting character in the first 2 Thor movies. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

3 minutes ago, Turtle said:

Poor Warriors Three.  Always forgotten. 

Didn't even get a proper sendoff...just unceremoniously killed in Ragnarok and no one seemed to care.  Not even Thor. 

It was strange to me that Sif was never mentioned past Dark World after being an important supporting character in the first 2 Thor movies. 

100% agree. After Heimdall, they were considered his best friends. I get that he didn't witness their deaths, but a scene of him collecting their bodies to send them off like his mother in TDW, would've been nice. Did Hela turn them into her undead minions, though? Was never mentioned, but possibly implied.

[miraclemet]

I imagine they will recast Cap/Ironman at some point in this new cinematic arc. 

Remember, the last 11 years has largely been one arc (all about the formation of the Avengers, the discovery of the various cosmic gems and the rise and fall of Thanos). Some movies were more peripheral to the big arc, some were more central, but they all tied in to the arc in some way. 

This next arc we dont know what the "big" story will be. We don't know who the central characters will be. Cap and Iron Man wont be in the center of this one (in part due to the departure of the actors), Tom Holland and Spidey might be. The actors who are under contract into this next arc will act as the bridge between the two arcs, and maybe be the central characters in this second arc, but who knows. But Cap and Ironman are too central of characters to be on the sidelines for a decade. They'll come back in, with different actors, maybe it's in 4-5 years and probably not as the central characters of the MCU.

Phase 1 thru 3 was Set up the individuals(1), bring the team(s) together(2), fight the big bad (3)
Pase 4 thru 6 might have the same setup, with Phase 4 being more about the individuals

Phase 5 could be the incorporation of a MCU version of the X-Men into the MCU and then Phase 6 would be the fight vs the big bad. 

Do the characters who arent under contract (Cap, Ironman, etc)  fit in? We'll have to see...

[theCapraAegagrus]

4 minutes ago, miraclemet said:

I imagine they will recast Cap/Ironman at some point in this new cinematic arc. 

Remember, the last 11 years has largely been one arc (all about the formation of the Avengers, the discovery of the various cosmic gems and the rise and fall of Thanos). Some movies were more peripheral to the big arc, some were more central, but they all tied in to the arc in some way. 

This next arc we dont know what the "big" story will be. We don't know who the central characters will be. Cap and Iron Man wont be in the center of this one (in part due to the departure of the actors), Tom Holland and Spidey might be. The actors who are under contract into this next arc will act as the bridge between the two arcs, and maybe be the central characters in this second arc, but who knows. But Cap and Ironman are too central of characters to be on the sidelines for a decade. They'll come back in, with different actors, maybe it's in 4-5 years and probably not as the central characters of the MCU.

Phase 1 thru 3 was Set up the individuals(1), bring the team(s) together(2), fight the big bad (3)
Pase 4 thru 6 might have the same setup, with Phase 4 being more about the individuals

Phase 5 could be the incorporation of a MCU version of the X-Men into the MCU and then Phase 6 would be the fight vs the big bad. 

Do the characters who arent under contract (Cap, Ironman, etc)  fit in? We'll have to see...

There have been rumors, for awhile, that Marvel Studios is ditching the Phase aspect of their film mapping. Allegedly, the movies will be less interconnected, because of how difficult it was to create and maintain that detailed level of continuity for a decade.

With both Fantastic Four and X-Men in the fold, I highly doubt that Tony and Cap are recast any time within the next decade.

Who would the next 'big bad' even be? Galactus? Is he a bigger threat than a Titan who, with the Stones, could destroy the 616 universe..? I think they need to split things up not, and now plan towards a single focus, to keep things both fresh and scaled.

Edited July 11, 2019 by TwoPiece
Typo.

[Casablanca]

Agree with OP, the James Bond model should be the template for these types of movies. Sean Connery was my Bond, but i still watched the movies and enjoyed them immensely after he left the role. Daniel Craig was great in the role, taking flack for ..gasp!..blond hair!

Robert Downey and Chris Evans certainly defined their roles as i think we can mostly agree, but there is other actors out there that i think can play those roles fairly well. We don't need to kill off Iron Man and Cap because those actors aren't available anymore.

"The king is dead...long live the king!"

[theCapraAegagrus]

2 minutes ago, Casablanca said:

Agree with OP, the James Bond model should be the template for these types of movies. Sean Connery was my Bond, but i still watched the movies and enjoyed them immensely after he left the role. Daniel Craig was great in the role, taking flack for ..gasp!..blond hair!

Robert Downey and Chris Evans certainly defined their roles as i think we can mostly agree, but there is other actors out there that i think can play those roles fairly well. We don't need to kill off Iron Man and Cap because those actors aren't available anymore.

"The king is dead...long live the king!"

Sam Wilson is Captain America now, so... The mantra (just like James Bond/007) has moved on in the MCU.

They're not going to alienate the gravity of Endgame by attempting to replace Tony Stark's Iron Man.

[fantastic_four]

1 hour ago, miraclemet said:

But Cap and Ironman are too central of characters to be on the sidelines for a decade. They'll come back in, with different actors, maybe it's in 4-5 years and probably not as the central characters of the MCU.

If this were true, I'd have my answer--Feige has absolutely, positively jumped the shark.  Did we learn NOTHING from the death of Superman crapola from the 80s that made it impossible to take superhero deaths seriously?  I highly respect virtually everything Feige has done up to this point, so I HIGHLY doubt he'll do what you're describing.  If he did do that, deaths would mean as little in the MCU as they did for a while in the 80s and 90s in comics.

[fantastic_four]

My money would be on Galactus as the next big bad.

[fantastic_four]

3 hours ago, Turtle said:

This has already happened quite a few times in the MCU.

Mark Ruffalo took over for Edward Norton (Hulk)

Josh Brolin took over for Damian Poitier (Thanos)

Don Cheadle took over for Terrence Howard (War Machine)

Zachary Levi took over for Josh Dallas (Fandral)

and Howard Stark has been played by 3 different people (I only know John Slattery's name off the top of my head).

 

All that to say that it's not like Feige refuses to cast new actors.  It's been done before. 

I forgot about Ed Norton and Terrence Howard and noticed but barely remembered the others.  I guess Feige is taking it case by case.  It was after those two guys that he started making the actors sign the multi-picture deals.  The last round of contractual film requirements that most of the bigs from Avengers signed was 6 films, I believe.  I wonder if he'll try to push that even higher now.

But I'm not sure he's thought this entirely through.  Maybe he has.  I certainly respect him enough to ASSUME he's thought it through, but as soon as Widow, RDJ, and Cap were eliminated I sat there in the theater being VERY uncertain about it, and even now I can't tell yet since Endgame just happened and we don't know what the future holds.  He's pretty much shoehorned now into rebooting at some point.  Or maybe he realizes it but is choosing what he sees as the lesser of two evils, i.e. recasting versus rebooting, neither of which is anywhere close to ideal.

Edited July 11, 2019 by fantastic_four

[theCapraAegagrus]

"Nothing lasts forever." - Black Widow, Age of Ultron

The MCU can't go on forever, and remain relevant, can it..? It'll have to die/reboot at some point. Feige didn't think they'd get past Phase 3 back when The Avengers came out. He expected it to be the end of the MCU (at the time).

There are stories that can be told at some point that can finish the MCU as we know it without just fizzling into nothingness/irrelevance (as the Fox X-Men just did).

[Antpark]

16 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

If this were true, I'd have my answer--Feige has absolutely, positively jumped the shark.  Did we learn NOTHING from the death of Superman crapola from the 80s that made it impossible to take superhero deaths seriously?  I highly respect virtually everything Feige has done up to this point, so I HIGHLY doubt he'll do what you're describing.  If he did do that, deaths would mean as little in the MCU as they did for a while in the 80s and 90s in comics.

I think you can have someone take up the role of the character without needing to be the original one that played it, like Sam Wilson as Captain America. I fully believe that Tom Holland will transition from Spider-Man to Iron Man as he ages and that a new Spider-Man will be brought in to replace him. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, Antpark said:

...I fully believe that Tom Holland will transition from Spider-Man to Iron Man as he ages and that a new Spider-Man will be brought in to replace him. 

Very bad idea IMO.

[fantastic_four]

3 minutes ago, Antpark said:

I think you can have someone take up the role of the character without needing to be the original one that played it, like Sam Wilson as Captain America. I fully believe that Tom Holland will transition from Spider-Man to Iron Man as he ages and that a new Spider-Man will be brought in to replace him. 

Maybe he thinks Cap and Iron Man are fine to off because as you say others can take up their mantle.  But what happens when Anthony Mackie leaves?  Or if hypothetically Peter Parker gets replaced by Miles Morales because Tom Holland is leaving, what then, it gets passed to another person?  This doesn't sound sustainable, at least without people getting pissed all along the way.  I'm not even sure half of comics fans are in on the idea of Miles Morales to begin with.

Related but separate question here--I didn't read any of the comics where Falcon became Cap.  Does he somehow get Cap's powers?  If so, how?  Cap is Cap because of the "super soldier serum" from Doctor Erskine, but he's dead now, so I'm wondering how Falcon can duplicate that.

[theCapraAegagrus]

2 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

...Related but separate question here--I didn't read any of the comics where Falcon became Cap.  Does he somehow get Cap's powers?  If so, how?  Cap is Cap because of the "super soldier serum" from Doctor Erskine, but he's dead now, so I'm wondering how Falcon can duplicate that.

Not to my knowledge, which slightly bothers me, considering that Bucky does in fact have those same powers (plus a ing awesome vibranium arm). However, I know that Bucky is the White Wolf now, and his HYDRA history (as well as his personal intentions) don't lend that well to the persona of Captain America.

Steve Rogers picked Sam Wilson because he's seemingly as pure of heart as he is. Within the context of the MCU - IMO it makes a decent amount of sense. Captain America having killed the Starks - brainwashed or not - isn't a heroic legacy.

I understand the perspective of any disagreements, though. I'm not 100% sold on Falcon being the new Cap.