MCU's FANTASTIC FOUR (TBD) 8 8

[fantastic_four]

On 12/13/2023 at 8:26 PM, VintageComics said:

As I pointed out in another thread too, Disney / Marvel was absolutely trying to kill the Fantastic Four movie franchise by purposefully cancelling the comic book in 2014 just before the release of the Trank movie. 

It's unreal how much was going against that movie, making it nearly impossible to succeed. 

Disney bought Marvel entertainment in 2009 IIRC, so Disney and Marvel worked VERY HARD to destroy the franchise that Fox owned, which probably played directly into Disney buying it from Fox just a few short years after the movie tanked. 

There was, quite literally, a corporate war going on of Biblical proportions over that franchise. 

I still wonder why Marvel took this approach with the X-Men and Fantastic Four to freeze out Fox, but they didn't do it with Spider-Man.  I guess they saw a chance of it working with Fox but not with Amy Pascal at Sony?  

[Bosco685]

On 12/14/2023 at 8:26 AM, fantastic_four said:

I still wonder why Marvel took this approach with the X-Men and Fantastic Four to freeze out Fox, but they didn't do it with Spider-Man.  I guess they saw a chance of it working with Fox but not with Amy Pascal at Sony?  

Supposedly it had to do with a bad negotiation experience between Disney and Fox.

Disney tried to secure the movie rights back for Silver Surfer and Galactus in exchange for Fox keeping Daredevil. Fox wouldn't do it. So then Disney/Marvel took drastic actions to ensure it underminded any Fantastic Four and X-Men productions.

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 12/14/2023 at 8:26 AM, fantastic_four said:

I still wonder why Marvel took this approach with the X-Men and Fantastic Four to freeze out Fox, but they didn't do it with Spider-Man.  I guess they saw a chance of it working with Fox but not with Amy Pascal at Sony?  

Sony gave Marvel merchandising rights to Spider-Man like action figures, t-shirts and other stuff, while Fox gave Marvel  nothing for X-Men and Fantastic Four. 

[Prince Namor]

On 12/14/2023 at 8:26 AM, VintageComics said:

As I pointed out in another thread too, Disney / Marvel was absolutely trying to kill the Fantastic Four movie franchise by purposefully cancelling the comic book in 2014 just before the release of the Trank movie. 

It's unreal how much was going against that movie, making it nearly impossible to succeed. 

Disney bought Marvel entertainment in 2009 IIRC, so Disney and Marvel worked VERY HARD to destroy the franchise that Fox owned, which probably played directly into Disney buying it from Fox just a few short years after the movie tanked. 

There was, quite literally, a corporate war going on of Biblical proportions over that franchise. 

EDITING THIS IN: I wonder in terms of movie releases if Disney / Marvel had other things happening to work against the FF franchise. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if there was even more corporate espionage than we've uncovered in just these few posts that Disney would do, to win back those franchises.

The Black Sabbath lyrics for War Pigs "moving people just like pawns in chess" was never so true. They play with people's lives for profit. 

Mind boggling. 

Or it could have been as simple as the book was not selling. Because it wasn't.

In January of 2014, it was #76 on the Diamond Top 300 at only 28,045 copies a month. Canceled two issues later.

You know what else Marvel canceled?

The #77 book, Uncanny X-Force (at 27,701), also canceled two weeks later and the #75 book, Cable and X-Force (at 28,208).

Did they reboot Uncanny X-Force? Not until 2018.

When did they reboot the Fantastic Four? Not until 2018.

(And in case someone points out that X characters are also FOX owned, Thunderbolts at #72 (28,994) was also canceled, as well as the #68 book, Mighty Avengers with sales of 30,251)

[Prince Namor]

Did people forget how bad of a movie the 2015 Fantastic Four was? And how much of a problem they had with the production of the movie?

Before the film's release, several sources had reported that there were multiple disagreements between 20th Century Fox and Trank during production. After being unsatisfied with Trank's original cut, Fox ordered their own changes to the film without Trank's supervision, changing and omitting certain major plot points from Trank's version. Many other sources claimed that there was "erratic behavior" from Trank on the set of the film, which resulted in Fox's negative treatment of him.^[67][68] Trank posted a message on Twitter one day prior to the film's release that criticized the finished film. Expressing dissatisfaction towards the final product, he stated, "A year ago I had a fantastic version of this. And it would've received great reviews. You'll probably never see it. That's reality though."^[69] Trank deleted the message shortly after.^[70] While Fox distribution chief Chris Aronson claimed that Fox supported Trank's version of the film,^[71] Kebbell conversely stated, "I tell you, the honest truth is [Trank] did cut a great film that you'll never see. That is a shame. A much darker version, and you'll never see it."^[72] Trank further disowned the film by removing it from his Instagram filmography.

[Prince Namor]

On 12/14/2023 at 8:26 AM, VintageComics said:

As I pointed out in another thread too, Disney / Marvel was absolutely trying to kill the Fantastic Four movie franchise by purposefully cancelling the comic book in 2014 just before the release of the Trank movie. 

Why would canceling the comic book make a difference? It was selling 28,000 copies a month. No one was reading it. How is that 'purposely' trying to kill the movie franchise?

On 12/14/2023 at 8:26 AM, VintageComics said:

It's unreal how much was going against that movie, making it nearly impossible to succeed. 

How much? They canceled one comic book. What else did they do?

On 12/14/2023 at 8:26 AM, VintageComics said:

Disney bought Marvel entertainment in 2009 IIRC, so Disney and Marvel worked VERY HARD to destroy the franchise that Fox owned, which probably played directly into Disney buying it from Fox just a few short years after the movie tanked. 

By canceling a comic? How is that working VERY HARD?

On 12/14/2023 at 8:26 AM, VintageComics said:

There was, quite literally, a corporate war going on of Biblical proportions over that franchise. 

LOL. Man, the hyperbole!

On 12/14/2023 at 8:26 AM, VintageComics said:

EDITING THIS IN: I wonder in terms of movie releases if Disney / Marvel had other things happening to work against the FF franchise. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if there was even more corporate espionage than we've uncovered in just these few posts that Disney would do, to win back those franchises.

If it's already Biblical proportions, what more would you need?

[EastEnd1]

On 12/14/2023 at 8:52 AM, Bosco685 said:

Supposedly it had to do with a bad negotiation experience between Disney and Fox.

Disney tried to secure the movie rights back for Silver Surfer and Galactus in exchange for Fox keeping Daredevil. Fox wouldn't do it. So then Disney/Marvel took drastic actions to ensure it underminded any Fantastic Four and X-Men productions.

Even the most basic licensing agreement will provide that neither party can undertake actions to undermine the license or the underlying property.  I'd imagine a licensing agreement involving the FF and Fox, a major media company with substantial resources, would have had very robust provisions along these lines.  Had Disney undertaken significant enough actions to "tank" a Fox FF production, it would have opened itself up to a sizable lawsuit.  Since no such lawsuit was forthcoming, there are two possibilities...(1) Fox did not feel they could make a case that what ever Disney/Marvel did (or didn't do) materially violated the license... or (2) Fox needed to get new lawyers.  

Edited December 14, 2023 by EastEnd1

[Bosco685]

On 12/14/2023 at 11:25 AM, EastEnd1 said:

Even the most basic licensing agreement will provide that neither party can undertake actions to undermine the license or the underlying property.  I'd imagine a licensing agreement involving the FF and Fox, a major media company with substantial resources, would have had very robust provisions along these lines.  Had Disney undertaken significant enough actions to "tank" a Fox FF production, it would have opened itself up to a sizable lawsuit.  Since no such lawsuit was forthcoming, there are two possibilities...(1) Fox did not feel they could make a case that what ever Disney/Marvel did (or didn't do) materially violated the license... or (2) Fox needed to get new lawyers.  

Appreciate the assumption the world is a straightforward and respectful place, where everyone follows the rules. Then you have a powerhouse like Disney that owns Marvel Entertainment, and the heavyhitter at that time. Meanwhile, Ike Perlmutter demanded Fantastic Four and X-Men comics make drastic changes. And even with the story in The Punisher Vol. 10 #12, they proceeded to insert the main cast into the story where they blow up. 

Marvel blows up new Fantastic Four film cast (2014)

And yes. This is real.

[Bosco685]

And around that same time...

Disney Continues Cancelling X-Men & Fantastic Four Merchandise (2015)

Quote

It’s been stated Marvel CEO Ike Perlmutter isn’t happy that Fox Studios owns the rights to the X-Men and Fantastic Four, so much so that Permlutter has ordered the cancellation of the comics and merchandise. As Rob Liefeld previously pointed out, there was no merchandise for X-Men: Days Of Future Past.

 

The Fantastic Four comic has been cancelled, and Wolverine has been killed off. There is even Marvel Comics killing off the Fantastic Four actors.

 

Marvel/Disney, under what is said to be a mandate by billionaire Perlmutter, has also cancelled planned Fantastic Four posters and removed Fox Studios-owned characters from t-shirts. Now the latest is confirmed to be the cancellation of both X-Men and Fantastic Four statues from XM Studios, which were underway with sculptures already designed.

 

Bleeding Cool points out XM Studios updated their Facebook page with the following:

 

Folks, it’s been a sad day for us… due to reasons we aren’t at liberty to disclose, we have been asked to put a hard stop to all X-Men characters for now. That means Cable can’t be released, and neither can the awesome Sentinel Diorama which we’ve all been so looking forward to. Still, we continue to have faith that this isn’t an indefinite red light forever and you can have our promise we will be back to producing these dream pieces once the coast is clear – no matter how long it takes!

 

And: No Fantastic 4 too… same issue

 

[EastEnd1]

On 12/14/2023 at 12:27 PM, Bosco685 said:

Appreciate the assumption the world is a straightforward and respectful place, where everyone follows the rules. Then you have a powerhouse like Disney that owns Marvel Entertainment, and the heavyhitter at that time. Meanwhile, Ike Perlmutter demanded Fantastic Four and X-Men comics make drastic changes. And even with the story in The Punisher Vol. 10 #12, they proceeded to insert the main cast into the story where they blow up. 

Marvel blows up new Fantastic Four film cast (2014)

And yes. This is real.

 

Fine... then Fox should have sued if Disney was doing as much damage as you allege.  They've certainly never been shy about engaging in lawsuits.  They didn't.

[Bosco685]

On 12/14/2023 at 12:37 PM, EastEnd1 said:

 

Fine... then Fox should have sued if Disney was doing as much damage as you allege.  They've certainly never been shy about engaging in lawsuits.  They didn't.

And that's more reality. Fox Studios let Marvel Entertainment get away with these actions.

[EastEnd1]

On 12/14/2023 at 12:33 PM, Bosco685 said:

And around that same time...

Disney Continues Cancelling X-Men & Fantastic Four Merchandise (2015)

 

You're citing speculation in "Comic Book News" as your authoritative source?? 

Again, Fox should have sued if Disney/Marvel damaged the license.  They didn't.

[EastEnd1]

On 12/14/2023 at 12:38 PM, Bosco685 said:

And that's more reality. Fox Studios let Marvel Entertainment get away with these actions.

So I'm back to where I started... Disney's actions (or inactions) either didn't rise to the level of materially harming the license (ie, Fox) or Fox's lawyers were incompetent or negligent.  Having dealt with Fox's lawyers, I can tell you that at least the ones I dealt with were neither of those two things.  

[Bosco685]

On 12/14/2023 at 12:42 PM, EastEnd1 said:

You're citing speculation in "Comic Book News" as your authoritative source?? 

Again, Fox should have sued if Disney/Marvel damaged the license.  They didn't.

 

On 12/14/2023 at 12:47 PM, EastEnd1 said:

So I'm back to where I started... Disney's actions (or inactions) either didn't rise to the level of materially harming the license (ie, Fox) or Fox's lawyers were incompetent or negligent.  Having dealt with Fox's lawyers, I can tell you that at least the ones I dealt with were neither of those two things.  

It was being published by Bleeding Cool and other sites. Read the article, versus trying to support a flawed premise.

[VintageComics]

On 12/14/2023 at 12:47 PM, EastEnd1 said:

On 12/14/2023 at 12:38 PM, Bosco685 said:

And that's more reality. Fox Studios let Marvel Entertainment get away with these actions.

So I'm back to where I started... Disney's actions (or inactions) either didn't rise to the level of materially harming the license (ie, Fox) or Fox's lawyers were incompetent or negligent.  Having dealt with Fox's lawyers, I can tell you that at least the ones I dealt with were neither of those two things.  

You keep working from the premise that because Fox didn't sue that it didn't happen, which it obviously did.

I understand why you'd look at it this way from your extensive experience but you're looking at it from inside the goldfish bowl, outward. 

I think the better question would be to ask WHY Fox didn't sue?

And the answer could be as simple as why these huge corporations sometimes make huge mistakes, like completely destroying a franchise that seems difficult to destroy (Like John Carter or DC's butchering of their own DC Cinematic Universe), or forgetting to put out a movie to secure the rights which has happened, or just too much corporate confusion to get a clear signal as to how to act (very common). 

Or maybe they just didn't think they could make the case. 

Another good question is, why did Fox eventually sell the FF and X-men rights? Where they hurting financially in 2017? 

 

I think it would be a very interesting study to do a deep dive into the movie releases circa 2010 - 2017/19 to see if Disney was actually, strategically using it's movie releases to drown out Fox in cinemas the way they were using comics to starve them out until the acquisition. 

Fascinating stuff. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/14/2023 at 10:08 AM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

On 12/14/2023 at 8:26 AM, fantastic_four said:

I still wonder why Marvel took this approach with the X-Men and Fantastic Four to freeze out Fox, but they didn't do it with Spider-Man.  I guess they saw a chance of it working with Fox but not with Amy Pascal at Sony?  

Sony gave Marvel merchandising rights to Spider-Man like action figures, t-shirts and other stuff, while Fox gave Marvel  nothing for X-Men and Fantastic Four. 

Yes. 

Sony had a very different working relationship with Marvel than Fox did. There was animosity between Disney and Fox whereas Sony was much more open to working with Marvel. 

Remember the huge Sony email hack of 2014?

If I remember correctly, this really exposed Sony in a bad way publicly, hurting them financially and it changed Sony's working relationship with Marvel. At one point, we were discussing here whether Sony was actually going to give up the rights to Spider-man in full. Instead, I believe Sony extended far more licensing to Marvel to compensate for their financial losses from the email hack and so managed to hang onto the franchise. 

Boscos posts in the last 24 hours seem to support this as well. 

[Bosco685]

On 12/14/2023 at 1:20 PM, VintageComics said:

You keep working from the premise that because Fox didn't sue that it didn't happen, which it obviously did.

I understand why you'd look at it this way from your extensive experience but you're looking at it from inside the goldfish bowl, outward. 

I think the better question would be to ask WHY Fox didn't sue?

And the answer could be as simple as why these huge corporations sometimes make huge mistakes, like completely destroying a franchise that seems difficult to destroy (Like John Carter or DC's butchering of their own DC Cinematic Universe), or forgetting to put out a movie to secure the rights which has happened, or just too much corporate confusion to get a clear signal as to how to act (very common). 

Or maybe they just didn't think they could make the case. 

Another good question is, why did Fox eventually sell the FF and X-men rights? Where they hurting financially in 2017? 

 

I think it would be a very interesting study to do a deep dive into the movie releases circa 2010 - 2017/19 to see if Disney was actually, strategically using it's movie releases to drown out Fox in cinemas the way they were using comics to starve them out until the acquisition. 

Fascinating stuff. 

There is so much history there between the two companies concerning these Marvel properties, it could be a book series in itself.

When Disney had finally made its initial offer for Fox which was still being negotiated, the story got out that Disney assigned executives to engage on pending Fox movies once it was much further along. Supposedly it was Victoria Alonso that showed up to the pending Dark Phoenix set and proceeded to kill off its Skrulls villain elements to protect Captain Marvel's pending story along with making it a one-picture story. And - she started providing recommendations for dialogue to the script. One of those elements was caught between her Captain Marvel interview and the final Dark Phoenix movie.

"X-Women"

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Bosco685

[Bosco685]

Houston Sharp was the Dark Phoenix concept artist, and afterwards he released the art on what they were originally working on. Including when Jean takes on the Skrulls in a massive space battle.

[fantastic_four]

On 12/14/2023 at 11:00 AM, Prince Namor said:

Or it could have been as simple as the book was not selling. Because it wasn't.

In January of 2014, it was #76 on the Diamond Top 300 at only 28,045 copies a month. Canceled two issues later.

You know what else Marvel canceled?

The #77 book, Uncanny X-Force (at 27,701), also canceled two weeks later and the #75 book, Cable and X-Force (at 28,208).

Did they reboot Uncanny X-Force? Not until 2018.

When did they reboot the Fantastic Four? Not until 2018.

You left out a few things they cancelled--the creation of any new X-Men characters since Fox automatically got film rights to all of them, plus Wolverine--who also was resurrected in 2018.  And what's significant about 2018?  That's after Fox and Disney came to terms on Disney's purchase of them.

So while I agree that FF isn't a premium seller, them cancelling it along with all of the other Fox comic-based properties then re-starting them after Disney bought Fox makes the intent pretty clear.

[VintageComics]

On 12/14/2023 at 1:36 PM, Bosco685 said:

There is so much history there between the two companies concerning these Marvel properties, it could be a book series in itself.

When Disney had finally made its initial offer for Fox which was still being negotiated, the story got out that Disney assigned executives to engage on pending Fox movies once it was much further along. Supposedly it was Victoria Alonso that showed up to the pending Dark Phoenix set and proceeded to kill off its Skrulls villain elements to protect Captain Marvel's pending story along with making it a one-picture story. And - she started providing recommendations for dialogue to the script. One of those elements was caught between her Captain Marvel interview and the final Dark Phoenix movie.

"X-Women"

 

See?

I had NO idea about ANY of these details, but all you need to have is a simple understanding of how business works, how human nature works and a little logic to piece it together and you can form a reasonable picture. Some people just don't get it or refuse to see it. 

And this is just the stuff we KNOW about.

I don't think most people can imagine the resources put into corporate espionage to squeeze out the competition. 

These corporations are no different than countries going to war, and in fact, they are basically as large as small countries so it's no surprise that they'd employ similar tactics. 

It's nice to think that everyone in charge would act like Snow White, but that's not reality. That's the illusion Disney and all corporations project while the corporate boardroom is performing slash and burn strategies to overtake the competition. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by VintageComics