Disney+'s SHE-HULK show (TBD) 5 5

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/16/2022 at 9:00 AM, Gatsby77 said:

?

Kamala Khan's been around for nearly a decade, had a few solo series, and been part of both the Avengers and the Champions.

Or...were you referring to She Hulk or Moon Knight - who have each been around for more than 40 years?

He's talking about which characters work within the MCU. For example, Hawkeye never got a movie because no one really cared about his character, until he was absent from Infinity War. People tended to mock that they shoehorned his family into AoU. Marvel can't throw everything at the wall and expect all of it to stick.

[drotto]

On 9/16/2022 at 9:00 AM, Gatsby77 said:

?

Kamala Khan's been around for nearly a decade, had a few solo series, and been part of both the Avengers and the Champions.

Or...were you referring to She Hulk or Moon Knight - who have each been around for more than 40 years?

I was commenting on letting them develop in the MCU specifically.  Also this insistence you must like the character. We can argue about the popularity of Kamala in the comics, but any character that has been rebooted as many times as hers is not as widely popular as Marvel would like you to think they are. This is not a slight against the character, but she is the prototype for Marvel pushing a character, and insisting she is popular, despite what her sales (and repeat cancellations) show.  She-Hulk is moderately popular, buy has never really reached the levels of Captain America Thor, or Iran Man (granted B characters in the books before the movies), I would say She-Hulk is a C level character.  Moon Knight has his followers, but they were very niche, and he never carried a book for an extended period of time, again a D level character. So as the MCU has moved forward, without access to the X-Men and FF (yes they have them now),  they have had to dig deeper to find new characters to adapt. As in the comics, most of these characters they are using now were never as popular in the books, and continue to be less popular when adapted. So reaching the point of diminishing returns.  As Spider-Man no way home proves, the A listers always bring the fans, the other not so much.

 

Earlier MCU did an excellent job of introducing and building an empire on the B level characters, as you dig deeper that becomes much harder, and either they are not doing it as well (which I think is a big piece), or the characters are just less popular for a reason. If they want these lessor know characters to succeed they, need to slowly grow and nurture them as opposed to the very confrontational relationship that seems to be evolving, when the early MCU was fairly harmonious.  The studio instead of arguing when something does not seem to be working, needs to sit back and see what is an is not working, and make adjustments. Yes, some fans are toxic (before that point is brought up), most are not and just love this stuff and want it to succeed. Marvel can not act as if they are always perfect, then get very defensive (not saying they can not point out toxic criticism, but can not dismiss all critique as such). They need to admit when they have faltered, and adjust or maybe move on. You can not force someone to like something.

[valiantman]

On 9/15/2022 at 12:32 PM, The Meta said:

When people say MK I think Mortal Kombat

In an alternate universe, where the translations went better, MK stands for Monkey Kong, while Mortal Combat is known as MC. 

[piper]

This show is only watchable because of the acting.  The writing is horrid.

[Gatsby77]

On 9/16/2022 at 10:02 AM, drotto said:

I was commenting on letting them develop in the MCU specifically.  Also this insistence you must like the character. We can argue about the popularity of Kamala in the comics, but any character that has been rebooted as many times as hers is not as widely popular as Marvel would like you to think they are. This is not a slight against the character, but she is the prototype for Marvel pushing a character, and insisting she is popular, despite what her sales (and repeat cancellations) show.  She-Hulk is moderately popular, buy has never really reached the levels of Captain America Thor, or Iran Man (granted B characters in the books before the movies), I would say She-Hulk is a C level character.  Moon Knight has his followers, but they were very niche, and he never carried a book for an extended period of time, again a D level character. So as the MCU has moved forward, without access to the X-Men and FF (yes they have them now),  they have had to dig deeper to find new characters to adapt. As in the comics, most of these characters they are using now were never as popular in the books, and continue to be less popular when adapted. So reaching the point of diminishing returns.  As Spider-Man no way home proves, the A listers always bring the fans, the other not so much.

 

Earlier MCU did an excellent job of introducing and building an empire on the B level characters, as you dig deeper that becomes much harder, and either they are not doing it as well (which I think is a big piece), or the characters are just less popular for a reason. If they want these lessor know characters to succeed they, need to slowly grow and nurture them as opposed to the very confrontational relationship that seems to be evolving, when the early MCU was fairly harmonious.  The studio instead of arguing when something does not seem to be working, needs to sit back and see what is an is not working, and make adjustments. Yes, some fans are toxic (before that point is brought up), most are not and just love this stuff and want it to succeed. Marvel can not act as if they are always perfect, then get very defensive (not saying they can not point out toxic criticism, but can not dismiss all critique as such). They need to admit when they have faltered, and adjust or maybe move on. You can not force someone to like something.

Ahh...got it. 

And I wholeheartedly agree with the bulk of your post.

It's hard to get people excited in - and non-comic book fans invested in - the C- and D-level characters.

I also think don't think they necessarily *need* to connect to the broader MCU.

Example: Jessica Jones Season 1 was brilliant - but I don't think she belongs in an Avengers film. 

She-Hulk has, as you've said, is a C-level character who has only sporadically supported her own title. Do we really need to elevate her to cosmic-level film shenanigans when we've already got Banner for that?

I have little interest in the Thunderbolts precisely because it's a bunch of D-list characters. Yes - some interesting actors, but literally zero heroes I personally care about seeing more of on-screen.

What I would like to see?

An MCU off-shoot for the street-level heroes:

Let's see Moon Knight interact with the Punisher, She-Hulk, Jessica Jones - and maybe even Spidey, etc. But please keep them away from the cosmic save-the-universe storylines. 

I guess Netflix tried that with Defenders, but my god was that show weak.

 

[drotto]

On 9/16/2022 at 12:39 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Ahh...got it. 

And I wholeheartedly agree with the bulk of your post.

It's hard to get people excited in - and non-comic book fans invested in - the C- and D-level characters.

I also think don't think they necessarily *need* to connect to the broader MCU.

Example: Jessica Jones Season 1 was brilliant - but I don't think she belongs in an Avengers film. 

She-Hulk has, as you've said, is a C-level character who has only sporadically supported her own title. Do we really need to elevate her to cosmic-level film shenanigans when we've already got Banner for that?

I have little interest in the Thunderbolts precisely because it's a bunch of D-list characters. Yes - some interesting actors, but literally zero heroes I personally care about seeing more of on-screen.

What I would like to see?

An MCU off-shoot for the street-level heroes:

Let's see Moon Knight interact with the Punisher, She-Hulk, Jessica Jones - and maybe even Spidey, etc. But please keep them away from the cosmic save-the-universe storylines. 

I guess Netflix tried that with Defenders, but my god was that show weak.

 

There is a place for smaller shows and lower level characters in the MCU.  The Netflix shows proved this. They may even deserve shows and promotions to more visible projects, but Disney needs to realize some of these are going to remain small, or may just be a one offs.  They are promoting these characters and making them the center point of the next big thing, and promoting them as such, without standing back and saying does this really work? So, put out these small shows (with appropriate budgets etc.) and figure out what works.  Then once you know what works then say OK this character has legs, let's put them into the next movie.  The approach right now seems much more like, we have them already in the big movie, but the public has no connection or knowledge of the character. We need to introduce them or the movie is going to be in trouble.  If the show ends up not working or not catching on, they panic, because they are already committed to the next step, they go into damage control, but never re-evaluate. 

 

That is one of the reasons phase one and even phase two worked.  By making individual origins films (despite the overdone nature of those), they were able to test certain characters, and see what worked, who caught on, and what and who did not.  They were then able to either tweak or drop characters, to get them right.  Look at how many times Hulk was changed (and recast) before they more or less got him right in Avengers.  They learned from their and other filmmakers mistakes. Here, if they make mistakes they just are saying, live with it we are heading full steam into the next thing. 

[Bosco685]

On 9/16/2022 at 1:07 PM, drotto said:

There is a place for smaller shows and lower level characters in the MCU.  The Netflix shows proved this. They may even deserve shows and promotions to more visible projects, but Disney needs to realize some of these are going to remain small, or may just be a one offs.  They are promoting these characters and making them the center point of the next big thing, and promoting them as such, without standing back and saying does this really work? So, put out these small shows (with appropriate budgets etc.) and figure out what works.  Then once you know what works then say OK this character has legs, let's put them into the next movie.  The approach right now seems much more like, we have them already in the big movie, but the public has no connection or knowledge of the character. We need to introduce them or the movie is going to be in trouble.  If the show ends up not working or not catching on, they panic, because they are already committed to the next step, they go into damage control, but never re-evaluate. 

 

That is one of the reasons phase one and even phase two worked.  By making individual origins films (despite the overdone nature of those), they were able to test certain characters, and see what worked, who caught on, and what and who did not.  They were then able to either tweak or drop characters, to get them right.  Look at how many times Hulk was changed (and recast) before they more or less got him right in Avengers.  They learned from their and other filmmakers mistakes. Here, if they make mistakes they just are saying, live with it we are heading full steam into the next thing. 

You just wait until we get to the X-Level, Y-Level and Z-Level characters (along with the criteria that comes with gauging such characters) and your head will really be spinning.

They will play out in MCU bubblegum inserted cartoons. But the events will tie into the grander franchise.

[Jesse-Lee]

On 9/16/2022 at 10:21 AM, piper said:

This show is only watchable because of the acting.  The writing is horrid.

Yeah, I have a hard time trying to figure out who they think their audience is. Like, it seems obviously mostly written for people younger than I am (44), but my kids (14 and 16) find it cringey. It sometimes has interesting nods to older viewers though - like I got a laugh out of the Sopranos inclusion. I don't hate the show, but I'm not waiting impatiently for the next new episode either. It's had some fun nods to the greater MCU, and that's basically what keeps me watching. I think Maslany plays the role fine, but that's kind of it for me.

[drotto]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:25 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

Yeah, I have a hard time trying to figure out who they think their audience is. Like, it seems obviously mostly written for people younger than I am (44), but my kids (14 and 16) find it cringey. It sometimes has interesting nods to older viewers though - like I got a laugh out of the Sopranos inclusion. I don't hate the show, but I'm not waiting impatiently for the next new episode either. It's had some fun nods to the greater MCU, and that's basically what keeps me watching. I think Maslany plays the role fine, but that's kind of it for me.

Best comparison, I heard (it was more targeted at episode 5) was it is written similar to a Nickelodeon live action shows like Lizzy McGuire. So it would be targeting tweens and younger teens. Granted the reviewer said every episode seems like a pilot episode where the style of writing, and target audience seems to shift wildly with every episode. So the show does not really know what it is and has not found its footing.

[Ken Aldred]

I don't have Disney and can't watch the show, and the only thing I've seen online is the twerking scene featuring She-Hulk and the ridiculously-named Megan Thee Stallion.

Clearly I'm missing one of Marvel's more highbrow and sophisticated series. 

[Microchip]

On 9/17/2022 at 5:50 AM, drotto said:

Best comparison, I heard (it was more targeted at episode 5) was it is written similar to a Nickelodeon live action shows like Lizzy McGuire. So it would be targeting tweens and younger teens. Granted the reviewer said every episode seems like a pilot episode where the style of writing, and target audience seems to shift wildly with every episode. So the show does not really know what it is and has not found its footing.

Every episode has felt like the first 5mins of a 90's sitcom.  The wind up before getting into the meat and potatoes of the episode.    A scene or two of Carey running in her high heels, cut to Samantha trying to find her clothes, then bam! Roll the credits.

[drotto]

This is just a general though.  I know marvel has a goal to expand the genres that their shows encompass.  How does this effect incorporating these characters into the wider MCU.  She Hulk is being introduced in a sitcom, so audiences will now only know her as a sitcom character. So how does she now fit into a more serious movie like Infinity War?  Does that automatically pull the audience out of the movie, or will it just make the character not fit.  For instance, take any of the characters from a show like Friends, say Rachel.  So we have the established Racheal character, and we are now going to place that exact character into ER (staying with network TV).  Can audiences still except that same character in a difference genre? Does it become disjointed?  Would it be distracting?

[PovertyRow]

On 9/16/2022 at 11:31 PM, Ken Aldred said:

I don't have Disney and can't watch the show, and the only thing I've seen online is the twerking scene featuring She-Hulk and the ridiculously-named Megan Thee Stallion.

Clearly I'm missing one of Marvel's more highbrow and sophisticated series. 

I confess to having never heard of her and initially thought she was a character created for the show. I looked her up and apparently she does have some credibility. She has received six BET Awards, five BET Hip Hop Awards, four American Music Awards, two MTV Video Music Awards, a Billboard Women in Music Award, and three Grammy Awards. At the 63rd Annual Grammy Awards, she became the second female rapper to win Best New Artist, Time named her one of the 100 most influential people in the world. While it looks like an impressive list I don't follow the above mentioned awards etc. so what do I know? 

 

[MetalPSI]

On 9/17/2022 at 2:54 PM, PovertyRow said:

I confess to having never heard of her and initially thought she was a character created for the show. I looked her up and apparently she does have some credibility. She has received six BET Awards, five BET Hip Hop Awards, four American Music Awards, two MTV Video Music Awards, a Billboard Women in Music Award, and three Grammy Awards. At the 63rd Annual Grammy Awards, she became the second female rapper to win Best New Artist, Time named her one of the 100 most influential people in the world. While it looks like an impressive list I don't follow the above mentioned awards etc. so what do I know? 

 

I once got a trophy in grade 4 for coming in last in the community league of soccer 

Awards mean nothing, mentions mean nothing

[Ken Aldred]

On 9/17/2022 at 9:54 PM, PovertyRow said:

I confess to having never heard of her and initially thought she was a character created for the show. I looked her up and apparently she does have some credibility. She has received six BET Awards, five BET Hip Hop Awards, four American Music Awards, two MTV Video Music Awards, a Billboard Women in Music Award, and three Grammy Awards. At the 63rd Annual Grammy Awards, she became the second female rapper to win Best New Artist, Time named her one of the 100 most influential people in the world. While it looks like an impressive list I don't follow the above mentioned awards etc. so what do I know? 

 

I know she's popular and talented. But, her stage name is still rubbish.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Ken Aldred

[PovertyRow]

On 9/17/2022 at 1:56 PM, The Meta said:

I once got a trophy in grade 4 for coming in last in the community league of soccer 

Awards mean nothing, mentions mean nothing

Unless, of course, once is a fan of the recipient (then they mean something ) or one is a hater of the recipient (then they mean nothing). 

Edited September 17, 2022 by PovertyRow
the boards remembering unposted posts is a sucky "feature"

[PovertyRow]

On 9/17/2022 at 2:03 PM, Ken Aldred said:

I know she's popular and talented. But, her stage name is still rubbish.

As I said I never heard of her and I think her name is at minimum just weird, even with  "Thee" being pronounced "The" 

[PovertyRow]

On 9/17/2022 at 7:42 AM, drotto said:

This is just a general though.  I know marvel has a goal to expand the genres that their shows encompass.  How does this effect incorporating these characters into the wider MCU.  She Hulk is being introduced in a sitcom, so audiences will now only know her as a sitcom character. So how does she now fit into a more serious movie like Infinity War?  Does that automatically pull the audience out of the movie, or will it just make the character not fit.  For instance, take any of the characters from a show like Friends, say Rachel.  So we have the established Racheal character, and we are now going to place that exact character into ER (staying with network TV).  Can audiences still except that same character in a difference genre? Does it become disjointed?  Would it be distracting?

Very interesting point. I suppose it is possible for Disney to attempt to have have both a Marvel Cinematic Universe and a Marvel Television Universe. They need not be mutually inclusive. In fact it would probably be disjointed/distracting if they tried to incorporate aspects of one into the other. (I do see WandaVision a unique exception.) I would hope an audience would have the perception to discern the difference between a tv spoof and a continuation of a cinematic universe, but who knows nowadays?!

[drotto]

On 9/17/2022 at 5:35 PM, PovertyRow said:

Very interesting point. I suppose it is possible for Disney to attempt to have have both a Marvel Cinematic Universe and a Marvel Television Universe. They need not be mutually inclusive. In fact it would probably be disjointed/distracting if they tried to incorporate aspects of one into the other. (I do see WandaVision a unique exception.) I would hope an audience would have the perception to discern the difference between a tv spoof and a continuation of a cinematic universe, but who knows nowadays?!

But there is an inherent issue when there are drastic tonal differences in what is being presented as a unified universe.  Yes, real life has those differences, but in media similar tone helps to unify. When you have characters that have not met and not interacted, but are supposed to be part of the same universe helps the audience associate them. It is something they are going to need to deal with, if a now comedic character like She-Hulk is now tasted with something serious.  Will the character have the weight (in the audience's eyes) to take on scenes like that in the future. 

[PovertyRow]

On 9/17/2022 at 4:11 PM, drotto said:

But there is an inherent issue when there are drastic tonal differences in what is being presented as a unified universe.  Yes, real life has those differences, but in media similar tone helps to unify. When you have characters that have not met and not interacted, but are supposed to be part of the same universe helps the audience associate them. It is something they are going to need to deal with, if a now comedic character like She-Hulk is now tasted with something serious.  Will the character have the weight (in the audience's eyes) to take on scenes like that in the future. 

I agree, but what I am saying is it should not BE a unified universe. Which is why I said "They need not be mutually inclusive. In fact it would probably be disjointed/distracting if they tried to incorporate aspects of one into the other." Everything need not be canon. Consider it an expanded "What If...?" concept.