New Comics too expensive?

[shrunkenhead]

If you really want to make money in collectibles, buy as many ps2 consoles you can when the new ps3 comes out and do not open. By some games to go along with it and do not open. In twenty years, you will be rich.

 

I remember my old highschool band teacher told me the same thing about 8-track players.

[lighthouse]

Joe, if you really believe your last post, give a kid you know a free longbox of moderns and check on the reaction.

 

It's not over.

 

I dunno. I gave my nephews (around five years old) a stack of about 200 books one christmas and they were totally, totally disinterested. I agree with a lot of joe's comments - wouldn't say comics are dead officially, but for all intents and purposes they are. They'll never be cool again IMO - they're a niche product for a niche market.

 

I couldn't disagree more...

 

Five straight months at my shop in Oregon I sold more copies of Johnny The Homicidal Maniac than I did of Amazing Spider-Man. There are plenty of comics that are "cool" and they sell very well to people who do not fit the "comic collector" profile. Educated, edgy, alternative customers are out there, buying what they think is "cool". Show me a guy with more than 8 tattoos and I will show you a comic collector.

 

The classic model for profiling a comic collector just doesn't match with reality anymore.

 

1) Read some Disney comics at age 6

2) Read some Superman comics at age 8

3) Read some Batman comics at age 9

4) Read some Spider-Man comics at age 10

5) Fill boxes with comics at age 12

6) Stash boxes in closet because comics aren't cool at age 14

7) Enroll in college at age 18

8) Discover that several college friends also read comics at age 19

9) Rush back home to make sure mom didn't throw comics away at age 19

10) Fill more boxes with comics at age 20

11) Hide boxes of comics from prospective girlfriend at age 21

12) Marry girlfriend at age 23

13) Decide wife doesn't run life, pull comics back out at age 25

14) Try to convince wife comics are investment at age 26

15) Fill more boxes with comics at age 27

16) Try to convince self comics are investment at age 29

17) Join comic message board and discover like-minded people at age 30

18) Realize 7-year-old son hasn't read comics yet at age 31

19) Freak out about future of comic market at age 31

 

That's just not reality any more... It may fit with the life experiences of people you know. But the people you know are not the future of comic collecting. They just aren't. I mean really. How many folks here have spent more than an hour recently with someone between the ages of 16-22 who was not your relative? The future comic collector's story might well go more like this:

 

1) Beat up kid who was reading Superman comics at age 8

2) Try first cigarette at age 10

3) Get suspended from school for dyeing hair at age 12

4) Hang out at skate park all summer at age 13

5) Read buddy's copy of Johnny The Homicidal Maniac at age 14

6) Sleep with buddy's sister at age 15

7) Get first tattoo at age 15

8) Show off tattoo to other buddy's sister at age 15

9) Sleep with other buddy's sister at age 15

10) Get butt kicked by other buddy at age 15

11) Get second tattoo at age 16

12) Form garage band at age 16

13) Score with three garage band groupies at age 17

14) Read groupie girlfriend's copies of Sandman at age 17

15) Steal girlfriend's copies of Sandman at age 17

16) Get new girlfriend at age 17

17) Show new girlfriend copies of Sandman at age 17

18) Get copies of Sandman stolen by new girlfriend at age 18

19) Buy more copies of Sandman at age 18

20) Start hanging out at strip clubs at age 18

21) Start bringing strippers back home to smoke a bowl and read Sandman at age 19

22) Get tattoo of Death from Sandman at age 19

23) Buy fresh copies of Johnny at age 19

24) Buy Lenore, Squee, Scud, 100 Bullets, Action Girl, Faust, and My Monkey's Name is Jennifer at age 19

25) Go to comic shop looking for reference for new vampire tattoo at age 20

26) Buy copy of Essential Tomb of Dracula at age 20

27) Buy VF copy of Tomb of Dracula 1 at age 20

28) Go to comic shop looking for reference for Ghost Rider tattoo at age 20

29) Buy stack of Ghost Rider comics at age 20

30) Read Killing Joke for first time at age 21

31) Start buying Batman comics at age 21

32) Attend first comic con at age 22

33) Show off tattoos and music cred at comic con at age 22

34) Score with eight chicks from comic con at age 22

35) Start buying Superman comics at age 23...

[shrunkenhead]

Classic post!

 

Thought I didn't get to number 13 till age 27:

 

 

13) Decide wife doesn't run life, pull comics back out at age 25

[october]

Great post.

[Bronty]

If you really want to make money in collectibles, buy as many ps2 consoles you can when the new ps3 comes out and do not open. By some games to go along with it and do not open. In twenty years, you will be rich.

 

I remember my old highschool band teacher told me the same thing about 8-track players.

 

yeah the consoles themselves aren't worth [embarrasing lack of self control], generally speaking. Some of the games are worth good money but the consoles don't hold value.

[joe_collector]

The future comic collector's story might well go more like this:

 

You might have a better case IF any of these punk losers could read. Trust me, I knew a lot of them, from my days paying for tuition by working at a youth detention center.

 

Not a lot of comics in their lockers, let me tell you.

[joe_collector]

And as per Lighthouse's extremely amusing post, we have to start identifying what we're talking about here.

 

Five straight months at my shop in Oregon I sold more copies of Johnny The Homicidal Maniac than I did of Amazing Spider-Man.

 

I think this says more about your clientele than any nationwide trends. After all, doesn't Johnny the Homicidal Maniac sell between 1K-2K copies a month, while ASM does between 80K-100K per month? Do the math.

 

Will there be enough skinny alternative freaks to make a go of some edgy, independent comic with a 1K-5K print run?

 

Sure, but does anyone think House's "new wave" buyer will be interested in mainstream superhero books, which is what I am really talking about. Mainstream comics from the Top 50 of the Diamond sales charts, a market that is populated with old timers.

 

I see those withering on the vine, taking comic stores with them, and leaving no place for the "new buyer" to get his edgy alternatives.

[lighthouse]

After all, doesn't Johnny the Homicidal Maniac sell between 1K-2K copies a month, while ASM does between 80K-100K per month? Do the math.

 

Will there be enough skinny alternative freaks to make a go of some edgy, independent comic with a 1K-5K print run?

 

You might (or might not) be surprised to learn that Johnny The Homicidal Maniac #1 has sold over 100,000 copies during its 18 printings. That puts it on par with most any mainstream title you can name. And I would be stunned if it doesn't sell another 50,000 copies in the next 5 years... There hasn't been a new issue in 7 years and it's still a solid seller...

 

Before anyone gets the idea that I am suggesting JTHM and SIP are going to save the comic industry, let me just reiterate. We were having a discussion about the point of entry for comic collectors. Many folks assume that because they started reading comics at age 8 and were collecting by age 11 that a dearth of comic-reading 8-year-olds marks the end of the industry. It just isn't the case. We have people on this very board who spend $5,000 a year on back issue comics who didn't really get into comics until they were well into their 20s. There are many different ways that people can get the comic collecting bug. It can be from exposure to comics as a kid, it can be from watching animation on tv (my assistant manager's point of entry was the 1990s X-Men cartoons), it can be from friends who are excited about the hobby (which can happen at any age), it can be from watching movies, it can be from seeing a cool tattoo and wanting to see more of that art, in can be from having too many dollars and not enough sense, it can be from a discovery of an old collection in an attic... There are dozens and dozens of entry points into this hobby. And to blindly assume that since people are not following your entry point there will be no more comic collectors in the years to come is ridiculous.

 

As long as there are quality retailers who care about the industry and care about customer service, I think this hobby will be just fine. It doesn't take much to develop new customers, and the good retailers do it all the time.

[joe_collector]

You might (or might not) be surprised to learn that Johnny The Homicidal Maniac #1 has sold over 100,000 copies during its 18 printings. That puts it on par with most any mainstream title you can name.

 

Sure, but how many YEARS did that take? 8-9 right? That's about 1 thousand copies sold a month at best.

 

In the above message, I was quoting MONTHLY sales, which are pretty freaking low.

[Sal]

i wonder if the slump in overall sales is merely the curve normalising back to early 80s levels. i don't have numbers in front of me, but i don't recall the industry exactly kicking hass in the early eighties - the dawn of the home gaming console, the VHS and all the other stuff that competes with comics for the entertainment dollar, and yet the industry grew and changed, and you had the explosion of books and sales in the nineties.

 

now perhaps we are merely on the down end of the cycle. hell, if the industry could survive the fifties, i'm not sure anything can kill it off completely

[Kevin Boyd]

I just posted a list of the Top 100 comics sold at comic shops in October 1984 in the Copper Forum along with some estimates of the print runs from the Circulation numbers as reported in the Standard Guide (published by Krause).

 

Sales were definitely stronger in 1984 than they are now.

[Sal]

really? here's a list of top 100 from CBR for July of 2005:

note i have no idea if the Index is the same, but these #'s are from Diamond;

 

Rank Index Item Code Title Price Pub

1 398.94 MAY050190 ALL STAR BATMAN & ROBIN THE BOY WONDER #1 $2.99 DC

2 242.52 JAN058021,

MAR051905 NEW AVENGERS #7* $2.25 MAR

3 231.90 JAN058162,

MAY051736 HOUSE OF M #3 (OF 8)* $2.99 MAR

4 223.93 JAN058163,

MAY051737 HOUSE OF M #4 (OF 8)* $2.99 MAR

5 195.26 MAR051920 ASTONISHING X-MEN #11 $2.99 MAR

6 165.57 MAY050210 SUPERMAN BATMAN #21 $2.99 DC

7 151.50 MAY051751 ULTIMATES 2 #7 $2.99 MAR

8 143.04 MAY050243 OMAC PROJECT #4 (OF 6) $2.50 DC

9 139.56 APR058305,

MAY051750 ULT FANTASTIC FOUR #21* $2.50 MAR

10 139.26 MAY051742 UNCANNY X-MEN #462 $2.50 MAR

11 135.21 MAY050254 VILLAINS UNITED #3 (OF 6) $2.50 DC

12 133.94 MAY050235 JLA #116 $2.50 DC

13 133.10 APR058296,

MAY051754 ULTIMATE X-MEN #61* $2.50 MAR

14 123.18 APR052777 RED SONJA #1 $2.99 DYN

15 120.77 MAY050245 RANN THANAGAR WAR #3 (OF 6) $2.50 DC

16 119.82 MAY051752 ULT SPIDER-MAN #79 $2.50 MAR

17 117.91 MAY051800 X-MEN #173 $2.50 MAR

18 117.53 MAY051753 ULT SPIDER-MAN #80 $2.50 MAR

19 117.14 MAY051763 WOLVERINE #30 $2.50 MAR

20 115.39 MAY050224 DAY O/VENGEANCE #4 (OF 6) $2.50 DC

21 111.76 MAY051756 AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #522 $2.50 MAR

22 109.40 MAY051746 SPIDER-MAN HOUSE OF M #2 (OF 5) $2.99 MAR

23 108.90 MAY051738 IRON MAN HOUSE OF M #1 (OF 3) $2.99 MAR

24 108.56 MAY050213 SUPERMAN #219 $2.50 DC

25 108.24 MAY051739 FANTASTIC FOUR HOUSE OF M #1 (OF 3) $2.99 MAR

26 104.46 MAY050253 TEEN TITANS #26 $2.50 DC

27 100.00 MAY050195 BATMAN #642 $2.50 DC

28 96.27 MAY050214 ACTION COMICS #829 $2.50 DC

29 96.26 MAY050225 DC SPECIAL RETURN O/DONNA TROY #2 (OF 4) $2.99 DC

30 89.82 MAY050215 ADVENTURES O/SUPERMAN #642 $2.50 DC

31 89.30 MAY051740 SECRETS O/T HOUSE OF M #1 $3.99 MAR

32 89.09 MAY050239 JSA CLASSIFIED #1 $2.50 DC

33 85.49 MAY051744 INCREDIBLE HULK #83 $2.99 MAR

34 84.68 MAY050238 JSA #75 $2.99 DC

35 82.38 MAY051745 INCREDIBLE HULK #84 $2.99 MAR

36 81.70 MAY050216 WONDER WOMAN #219 $2.50 DC

37 80.94 MAY051772 FANTASTIC FOUR #529 $2.99 MAR

38 79.39 MAY051809 X-MEN THE END HEROES & MARTYRS #5 (OF 6) $2.99 MAR

39 77.75 MAY051762 MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #16 $2.99 MAR

40 76.77 MAY051748 PULSE #10 $2.99 MAR

41 73.45 MAY050229 FLASH #224 $2.50 DC

42 73.05 MAY051764 DAREDEVIL #75 $3.99 MAR

43 70.82 MAY051741 MUTOPIA X #1 (OF 5) $2.99 MAR

44 68.83 MAY050236 JLA CLASSIFIED #10 $2.99 DC

45 68.52 MAY051743 NEW X-MEN #16 $2.99 MAR

46 67.06 MAY051803 WEAPON X DAYS O/FUTURE NOW #1 (OF 5) $2.99 MAR

47 66.06 MAY050244 OUTSIDERS #26 $2.50 DC

48 60.38 MAY051773 DEFENDERS #1 (OF 5) $2.99 MAR

49 58.84 MAY050013-5 SERENITY #1 (OF 3)* $2.99 DAR

50 58.54 MAY051769 DAREDEVIL VS PUNISHER #1 (OF 6) $2.99 MAR

51 58.34 MAY050204 NIGHTWING #110 $2.50 DC

52 58.00 MAY050198 DETECTIVE COMICS #808 $2.99 DC

53 57.12 MAY051810 PUNISHER #23 (MR) $2.99 MAR

54 56.96 MAY050242 LEGION O/SUPER HEROES #8 $2.99 DC

55 56.38 MAY051801 NYX #6 (MR) $2.99 MAR

56 55.51 MAY050016 CONAN #18 (MR) $2.99 DAR

57 54.49 MAY050228 GREEN ARROW #52 $2.50 DC

58 53.88 MAY051765 BLACK PANTHER #6 $2.99 MAR

59 53.60 MAY051770 DAREDEVIL VS PUNISHER #2 (OF 6) $2.99 MAR

60 52.64 MAY051766 SHANNA THE SHE DEVIL #6 (OF 7) (MR) $3.50 MAR

61 52.56 MAY051749 CABLE DEADPOOL #17 $2.99 MAR

62 52.52 APR050359 WONDER WOMAN #218 $2.50 DC

63 52.10 MAY051806 EXILES #66 $2.99 MAR

64 51.58 MAY051807 EXILES #67 $2.99 MAR

65 50.31 MAY050251 SEVEN SOLDIERS GUARDIAN #3 (OF 4) $2.99 DC

66 46.81 MAY050200 BATMAN GOTHAM KNIGHTS #67 $2.50 DC

67 46.04 MAY050196 BATMAN DARK DETECTIVE #5 (OF 6) $2.99 DC

68 45.82 MAY050221 BIRDS O/PREY #84 $2.50 DC

69 45.42 MAY050271 ASTRO CITY THE DARK AGE #2 (OF 16) $2.99 DC

70 45.28 MAY050197 BATMAN DARK DETECTIVE #6 (OF 6) $2.99 DC

71 45.02 MAY051777 HULK DESTRUCTION #1 (OF 4)(MR) $2.99 MAR

72 44.69 MAY051758 SPIDER-MAN BREAKOUT #4 (OF 5) $2.99 MAR

73 44.18 MAY050206 ROBIN #140 $2.50 DC

74 44.08 MAY050040 HELLBOY THE ISLAND #2 (OF 2) $2.99 DAR

75 43.38 APR050313 CATWOMAN WHEN I/ROME #6 (OF 6) $3.50 DC

76 42.68 MAR051727 HUNTER KILLER #3 $2.99 IMA

77 42.10 MAY051771 MARVEL KNIGHTS 4 #20 $2.99 MAR

78 41.82 MAY051784 RUNAWAYS #6 $2.99 MAR

79 41.20 MAY050199 BATGIRL #66 $2.50 DC

80 40.50 MAY051808 NEW X-MEN HELLIONS #3 (OF 4) $2.99 MAR

81 40.42 MAY050305 Y THE LAST MAN #35 (MR) $2.99 DC

82 39.70 MAY051791 NEW THUNDERBOLTS #10 $2.99 MAR

83 39.58 MAY052516 SOULFIRE DYING O/T LIGHT #0 $2.50 ASP

84 39.45 MAY051804 X-MEN KITTY PRYDE SHADOW & FLAME #2 (OF 5) $2.99 MAR

85 39.36 MAY050203 BATMAN LEGENDS O/T DARK KNIGHT #193 $2.50 DC

86 39.14 MAY051782 GLA #4 (OF 4) $2.99 MAR

87 39.10 MAY051759 TOXIN #4 (OF 6) $2.99 MAR

88 38.46 MAY050298 NEIL GAIMANS NEVERWHERE #2 (OF 9) (MR) $2.99 DC

89 37.62 MAY050293 FABLES #39 (MR) $2.75 DC

90 37.11 MAY052515 FATHOM #2 $2.99 ASP

91 37.04 MAY050209 YEAR ONE BATMAN RAS AL GHUL #2 (OF 2) $5.99 DC

92 36.17 MAY051788 OFF HANDBK MARVEL UNIVERSE AVENGERS 2005 $3.99 MAR

93 35.69 JAN052630 ARMY O/DARKNESS SHOP TIL YOU DROP DEAD #4 $2.99 DYN

94 34.85 MAY050201 BATMAN JEKYLL AND HYDE #4 (OF 6) $2.99 DC

95 34.46 MAY051783 MARVEL TEAM-UP #10 $2.99 MAR

96 33.11 MAY050275 EX MACHINA #13 (MR) $2.99 DC

97 32.65 MAY050233 HAWKMAN #42 $2.50 DC

98 32.11 MAY051802 NIGHTCRAWLER #8 $2.99 MAR

99 31.86 MAY050202 CATWOMAN #45 $2.50 DC

100 31.76 MAY050237 JLA CYBERFORCE $5.99 DC

[Kevin Boyd]

No the indexes aren't really comparable. We'll be running some analyses on the July numbers when ICV2 gives out the print runs later this week/early next week.

 

The October 1984 index was just a feature in Amazing Heroes magazine based on reported sales at comic shops averaged out per the number of comic stores known to exist at that time, while the Diamond current index is based on numbers ordered and shipped out to comic book shops.

[Sal]

that's what i was figuring. no reason for Diamond to have information from individual stores wrt actual sales.

 

looking forward to the report/article, if you choose to make your findings public

[Kevin Boyd]

We usually analyze the monthly data here in this forum when it's available.

[lighthouse]

really? here's a list of top 100 from CBR for July of 2005:

note i have no idea if the Index is the same, but these #'s are from Diamond;

 

For future reference, that index is permanently tied to the sales of Batman, which is considered to be a "stable" title as far as sales go. So Batman is arbitrarily assigned an index of 100.00 each month, and the other titles are reported in relation to Batman's sales figures. All the titles on that list could be selling twice as many copies this time next year, but unless their ratios compared to Batman changed, the index would look exactly the same.

 

And for what it's worth, the sales of Batman as a title are extremely stable. Jim Lee's run is really the only exception in the last ten years. With that lone exception, Batman's sales change very slowly up and down. It's not like some books which may double their sales numbers for certain issues and then see them cut in half again just a couple issues later...

[lighthouse]

You might (or might not) be surprised to learn that Johnny The Homicidal Maniac #1 has sold over 100,000 copies during its 18 printings. That puts it on par with most any mainstream title you can name.

 

Sure, but how many YEARS did that take? 8-9 right? That's about 1 thousand copies sold a month at best.

 

In the above message, I was quoting MONTHLY sales, which are pretty freaking low.

 

I disagree. We're talking about a single issue of a comic book. And Johnny THM #1 has sold more copies than any Spider-Man issue from its year (or even the next three years for that matter).

 

There are more people out there with copies of JTHM #1 than people with copies of Amazing Spider-Man #441. So in terms of the number of collectors impacted by that issue, it's on par...

 

It's like talking about album sales and only looking at new releases. Metallica sold over 1.4 million units last year from its catalog of past releases. Their first three albums all sold more copies last year than they did when released (17-21 years ago). You can either look at how many copies someone sells during an initial release, or how many copies someone sells period.

 

Yes, Jhonen's JTHM #1 probably only sells around 1,000 copies a month. But so do each of his other six issues of that title, each and every month. And his other past releases also sell in the 500-800 copies a month range and have ever since they came out. Between Fillerbunny, Squee, I Feel Sick, and Johnny, Jhonen is selling 12,000-18,000 copies every month whether he puts out a new issue that month or not. He puts out about 2-3 new comics a year and sells around 160,000 copies a year. Hardly small potatoes...

[Bronty]

You might (or might not) be surprised to learn that Johnny The Homicidal Maniac #1 has sold over 100,000 copies during its 18 printings. That puts it on par with most any mainstream title you can name.

 

Sure, but how many YEARS did that take? 8-9 right? That's about 1 thousand copies sold a month at best.

 

In the above message, I was quoting MONTHLY sales, which are pretty freaking low.

 

I disagree. We're talking about a single issue of a comic book. And Johnny THM #1 has sold more copies than any Spider-Man issue from its year (or even the next three years for that matter).

 

There are more people out there with copies of JTHM #1 than people with copies of Amazing Spider-Man #441. So in terms of the number of collectors impacted by that issue, it's on par...

 

It's like talking about album sales and only looking at new releases. Metallica sold over 1.4 million units last year from its catalog of past releases. Their first three albums all sold more copies last year than they did when released (17-21 years ago). You can either look at how many copies someone sells during an initial release, or how many copies someone sells period.

 

Yes, Jhonen's JTHM #1 probably only sells around 1,000 copies a month. But so do each of his other six issues of that title, each and every month. And his other past releases also sell in the 500-800 copies a month range and have ever since they came out. Between Fillerbunny, Squee, I Feel Sick, and Johnny, Jhonen is selling 12,000-18,000 copies every month whether he puts out a new issue that month or not. He puts out about 2-3 new comics a year and sells around 160,000 copies a year. Hardly small potatoes...

 

I don't think that's a fair comparison - if marvel or dc wanted to print quantities that small (a few thousand per printing) they could keep certain books in print forever. Plus if we're going to count reprints we have to count graphic novels in which the stories appear and then it never ends.

 

Regardless, there might be indies that do well, but to suggest the sales are on a par with mainstream titles is ridiculous. If Jhonen DID put out twelve issues a year, I can pretty much assure you he would not be selling the same # of monthly copies as spiderman.

[Bronty]

For that matter, you could print an issue of spiderman that had blank pages and no cover (other than a title and issue number) and you'd still sell more units that month than JTHM.. and I'm entirely serious. I have no doubt that a few thousand people would pick it up just for the oddity factor. And you'd probably have another couple thousand people picking it up just because it was a low print run/ odd spiderman issue that might go up in price.