Hierarchy of Golden Age Comics (2020 Edition) 1 1

[Cat-Man_America]

10 hours ago, Wayne-Tec said:

To me, Cap #1 is the first comic book to have that "Marvel Universe" feel. That's no doubt due to the influence of Jack Kirby's artwork later during the SA boom. It's not just one of the most recognizable superheroes in comic book history, but it's Kirby's artwork 20 years before the SA boom. I love both Marvel and DC, but for collectors who are "Marvel Zombies", those who are just not interested in DC books (think, Star Wars fans who just don't care for Star Trek), Cap #1 is viewed in a different light. Ditto Marvel #1.

I can see where you're coming from, although the "Marvel Universe" didn't establish a strong visual foothold until after WWII, with the All Winners Squad in AW #19 & 21.  Alas, that only lasted two brief issues.  One of the most quintessential Kirby style covers of the first ten (from my perspective) is the carnival wheel cover for Cap #5.  However, many of Alex Schomburg's covers featuring the Human Torch convey that feel at times, as did several other artists contributing art toward the end of the 1940's. I don't want to digress from the hierarchy discussion, so I'll post some of the covers in spoilers below that I feel have that MU feel (zombie dust included at no extra charge).

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Edited April 24, 2020 by Cat-Man_America
beer mugging

[ChillMan]

4 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Well, with the exclusion of both Supes 1 and Bat 1 combined with the inclusion of both Mystery Men 1 and Police Comics 1, it looks like you are definitely going with first appearances all the way.  

Although most longer term collectors would have selected Wonder Comics 1 over Mystery Men 1, I actually agree with your selection of MM 1 since it was a much longer run than the 2-issue run of Wonder Comics before DC's lawsuit shut them down.  In addition, Blie Beetle is pretty much still around in the comics today some 80+ years after his first appearance in MM 1.  

I am also in total agreement with your selection of Police Comics 1 since I feel that this has long been a much under appreciated and hence, rather under valued GA key book that has been overlooked by most GA collectors.  Definitely hard to beat when its got the first appearance of Plastic Man and Phantom Lady.  Especially since Plastic Man is still around in comic book form to this day and also supposed to get his own movie in the not too distant future.  Although the Police Comics version of Phanton Lady is definitely not as readily recognizable as the classic Baker GGA sultry cover version which came in the latter part of the 40's, she's another character who has morphed through various alter egos over the decades to still be around in one form or another.   

The one that I would disagree with is All-American 19 since the Atom is a relatively minor and 3rd tier character from my point of view and we already have far too many DC characters on this list here.  Plus I just wanted to make room for Amazing Man 5 since I consider that to be the flagship and key book for the highly desirable and HTF Centaur line.  

As for your Tier 2 selection of the Flash/Thrill Ashcan, I would take that off my list since I personally don't think ashcans should be included in these kinds of list.  In its place, I would definitely put in Pep 22 into Tier 2 since it is a first appearance of a major comic book character (i.e. Archie and his gang) who has basically run uninterrupted in a slew of comic book titles for some 80 odd years now.  

Yes, Batman 1 needs to be added to my Tier 2.  The Joker is about equal to any superhero other than Superman and Batman.  Like I said, fans could argue all day about who's better....Joker vs Aquaman, Captain America vs Flash, Green Lantern vs Wonder Woman....I just put them all in Tier 2.

I guess I have to make just one exception for my 1st-appearance rule for Superman 1.

Pep 22....yes Archie is the one non-superhero that deserves to be ranked.  But I can't rank him as high as Robin.  I'll put him in Tier 4.

Edited April 24, 2020 by ChillMan
Spacing

[sfcityduck]

20 hours ago, Wayne-Tec said:

I believe Superman, Batman, Robin and Wonder Woman were the only characters to survive from their creation through the beginning of the Silver Age. I don't believe Robin would have survived without Batman, but he remained nevertheless.

For DC superheros, as Telerites already noted, so did Aquaman and Green Arrow and Speedy, and as he didn't note, so did Superboy. 

For superheros at other companies, Plastic Man also made it into the SA (Nov. 1956) for Quality, but was cancelled in connection with the DC's buyout of Quality.  Plastic Man's non-superhero Quality stablemate Blackhawk made the transition from Quality to DC and continued on uninterrupted.

Worth noting that Captain Marvel, Captain Marvel Jr., Mary Marvel, and the Marvel Family also continued in publication uninterrupted until 1953, when DC put them out of business.  But for that, they would likely have continued on into the SA.  In fact, there are a number of non-DC superheros that outlasted the Timely characters, including Harvey's Black Cat which had a sporadic run into the SA.

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I rank Cap below Superman and Batman, but I don't know if I'd rank him below any other GA superhero. I'm not talking about importance "during the GA", I'm talking overall, from their creation through the present day.

If i were a Marvel zombie I would agree with you because he and Subby are the only GA Timely superheros to make a transition to the SA in their original form, and Subby is an also ran superhero often used as a villian.  But, I'm not.  I also think the impact of a character over the life of their publication is more important than the impact of the character during a period of movie hype.  And CA has never been the most important Marvel superhero in the SA, BA, or CA.  I don't think he is in the modern age, but I'm not qualified to make that determination.  All I know is that modern age comics have less popular culture impact than GA, SA, BA, and CA comics, so I discount their import. I think you can make a strong argument that even Green Arrow is more important than CA.  Not only did GA have an uninterrupted run since his creation, including time on a superhero team, but he also was a pillar of the DC SA - own title, JLA, Super Friends, cartoons, Arrowverse tv, etc.  So I think your view of CA is a bit too inflated.

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You could make a strong argument for Wonder Woman over Cap. She's a greater cultural icon with, arguably, greater recognizability. So I have no problem with her being ranked ahead of Cap either. Had the cover art for Sensation #1 been on the front cover of All-Star Comics #8, you'd have a strong argument for her 1st app. being ranked above Cap #1. Put another way, had Action Comics #1 sported the cover art of Action Comics #2, I'd probably have Detective Comics #27 ranked No. 1.

Wonder Woman is a stronger character than CA over the life of her publication history.  Continuous publication, DC SA pillar, JLA, Super Friends and other cartoons, classic TV series of the 70s, movies, etc.  Agree that AS 8 would be a huger book if it had WW on the cover.  But, even without, the CGC 9.4 AS 8 outperformed the CGC 9.4 CA 1 - and did so two years before the CA 1 hit market.  For me, personally, there is a distinction between a hierarchy of characters and of covers, and I'm a bit confused which you are talking about here.

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I don't disagree with Captain Marvel being bigger than Cap in the 1930s-1950s, he was also bigger than Batman for a time. Had the character remained at that level over the 60+ years that followed, I'd have Whiz #2 ranked much higher. If we are comparing point of creation through modern day, I don't think that Captain Marvel is very close to Captain America.

CM was at one time in the GA the biggest superhero of all.  He was in continuous publication much longer than CA, and was only stopped by the DC lawsuit.  He was revived in the 70s, put on TV in the 70s, and is in movies now.  Still, I agree that CA has the edge right now - because of the MCU strength.  That may change now that CA is out of the MCU. The present comic market is not very significant to me.

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If the criteria is "artistic detail", I wouldn't argue. My criteria has Cap #1, Action #1, Amazing Fantasy #15 as three of the greatest comic book covers of all-time. But if "artistic detail" were my criteria, you'd see covers featuring characters few people have ever even heard of ranked well above those three covers.

I don't know what your criteria for comic covers is.  I haven't seen it on this site.  But, I don't think the three covers you mention would make anyone's list if they weren't first appearances.  I don't think many would argue those three covers are the best on their titles.  So you appear to be conflating the quality of a cover with the historical import of the book.  Which I think is a mistake.

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I think his origin is more well known than Wonder Woman's. Definitely not Superman or Batman though.

Wonder Woman's origin is one of the most well known.  So well known, she's nicknamed the "Amazon Princess."  In comics, it's been reprinted many many times.  In fact, it was reprinted in the first issue of Ms. magazine at the start of the feminist movement.  It also was re-told in the 70s Lynda Carter tv movie/series.  And has been the subject of a major motion picture.  So, I'm not in agreement here.

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The Winter Soldier has become a very big deal in comics during the 2010s. Bucky was no doubt a Robin imitator, down to the mask, but most superhero were imitators of Superman. I don't knock them for that, nor do I knock Bucky. He's probably the 2nd greatest side kick in comic book history. 

Winter Soldier and 2010 comics are not my reference points.  But, no way is Bucky the second greatest side kick.  He was the second sidekick at Timely.  He had no Marvel SA or BA presence - arguably less important a sidekick for CA than the Falcon.  Far fewer comic and tv appearances than Speedy, who was a founding member of the Teen Titans and is part of the Arrowverse.  Focusing just on the GA, Bucky is not even top 3.  He never got his own book or series like Robin, Captain Marvel Jr., Mary Marvel, Marvel Family, and had fewer appearances for Timely than Toro.  Heck, even Namora got more love from Timely than Bucky.  Broadening the discussion to teen superheros, Superboy blows Bucky out of the water and all of the Teen Titans (some of which weren't really side kicks) also are of greater stature.  And although this is off-topic, it is pretty clear to me to Hewey, Dewey and Louie may be more important sidekicks these days than Bucky or Robin (e.g. DuckTales), since neither really appears in the movies (Bucky in the MCU is not Bucky the sidekick).

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Do you consider Cap debuting in his own title to be significant, especially when considering all of the great characters who did not?

Two words:  Red Raven.  It just doesn't matter to me that CA first appeared in his own comic.  I also don't give Flash kudos for debuting in Flash Comics (which was an anthology).  It wasn't unique to Captain America and he wasn't the first (maybe Amazing Man?).

 

Having said all that, it is completely personal choice and there are no wrong answers.  I realize many folks love CA 1, so I'm in a minority in thinking it is very overrated.

Edited April 24, 2020 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

7 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

I can see where you're coming from, although the "Marvel Universe" didn't establish a strong visual foothold until after WWII, with the All Winners Squad in AW #19 & 21.  Alas, that only lasted two brief issues.  One of the most quintessential Kirby style covers of the first ten (from my perspective) is the carnival wheel cover for Cap #5.  However, many of Alex Schomburg's covers featuring the Human Torch convey that feel at times, as did several other artists contributing art toward the end of the 1940's. I don't want to digress from the hierarchy discussion, so I'll post some of the covers in spoilers below that I feel have that MU feel (zombie dust included at no extra charge).

For me, the first "Marvel Universe" cover is this one by Alex S.:

Also, I view Jack Kirby's SA Marvel style as completely different than his GA style.  I think his GA style was cartoony (almost rubber band style), really more of an imitation of Joe Simon than anything else.  Whereas, the art of his SA style is much more substantial, realistic, and refined.  I think it is  a product of his working at DC in the 1950s (as seen in this obvious precursor to the FF):

 

[Cat-Man_America]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

For me, the first "Marvel Universe" cover is this one by Alex S.:

Also, I view Jack Kirby's SA Marvel style as completely different than his GA style.  I think his GA style was cartoony (almost rubber band style), really more of an imitation of Joe Simon than anything else.  Whereas, the art of his SA style is much more substantial, realistic, and refined.  I think it is  a product of his working at DC in the 1950s (as seen in this obvious precursor to the FF):

 

There is no right or wrong to an opinion here, especially when it’s established that opinions on art are subjective.  I may view things somewhat differently from you, but that doesn’t make either of our viewpoints incorrect.  

One issue rarely discussed when evaluating Kirby’s legacy of work are the inkers.  When others inked his work ...for instance, Wally Wood... nuanced variations in the overall style have to be factored into any assessment.  Also, the colorist’s choices often play a role in overall impression of comic book art, ...except in the case of the original B&W art.  

Suggesting that Kirby’s vintage style was “cartoony (almost rubber-band style)” is nonsense from my POV, but in fairness, this may just be our differing perceptions of what constitutes “cartoony” art.  As an artist myself, I’m more impressed by realism, surrealism and a range of angles and perspectives.  Abstract art holds little relevance for me and pop-art looks much more cartoony, but it all comes down to a matter of personal taste.. 

BTW, Joe Simon didn’t have a distinct style.  He was much better at imitating other artist’s styles and preferred managing to working behind a drawing board.

Not to get too much into the weeds here, Kirby’s style morphed noticeably in the early to mid-60’s.  It’s very apparent in the Fantastic Four (look at the evolution of Ben Grimm’s Thing, for instance). Some would say Jack’s style evolved in a more dynamic direction, where others might see a simplification, shifting to a less detailed, abstract technique, relying more on close-ups and reaction shots.  Preference for a style or “period” of Jack’s work is just a judgment call & none of it takes away from the artist’s legacy.

[sfcityduck]

2 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

 

Suggesting that Kirby’s vintage style was “cartoony (almost rubber-band style)” is nonsense from my POV, but in fairness, this may just be our differing perceptions of what constitutes “cartoony” art.  

 

Maybe pictures will help.  I view these covers as cartoony (and almost rubber band style - an animation term) compared to many of his contemporaries:

 

I think this is seen even more in his GA interiors.  He did a lot of caricatures and his figures were very very flexible.  But, don't get me wrong, I think Kirby was a great artist who could draw in a variety of styles.  For me, he hit is apex in the late 50s to mid-60s.    

 

[Wayne-Tec]

On 4/24/2020 at 11:29 AM, sfcityduck said:

For DC superheros, as Telerites already noted, so did Aquaman and Green Arrow and Speedy, and as he didn't note, so did Superboy. 

For superheros at other companies, Plastic Man also made it into the SA (Nov. 1956) for Quality, but was cancelled in connection with the DC's buyout of Quality.  Plastic Man's non-superhero Quality stablemate Blackhawk made the transition from Quality to DC and continued on uninterrupted.

Worth noting that Captain Marvel, Captain Marvel Jr., Mary Marvel, and the Marvel Family also continued in publication uninterrupted until 1953, when DC put them out of business.  But for that, they would likely have continued on into the SA.  In fact, there are a number of non-DC superheros that outlasted the Timely characters, including Harvey's Black Cat which had a sporadic run into the SA.

Really good points. If we could rewind to the point of Timely discontinuing it's superhero run, who would have expected that "Marvel" would be where it is today?

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If i were a Marvel zombie I would agree with you because he and Subby are the only GA Timely superheros to make a transition to the SA in their original form, and Subby is an also ran superhero often used as a villian.  But, I'm not.  I also think the impact of a character over the life of their publication is more important than the impact of the character during a period of movie hype.  And CA has never been the most important Marvel superhero in the SA, BA, or CA.  I don't think he is in the modern age, but I'm not qualified to make that determination.  All I know is that modern age comics have less popular culture impact than GA, SA, BA, and CA comics, so I discount their import. I think you can make a strong argument that even Green Arrow is more important than CA.  Not only did GA have an uninterrupted run since his creation, including time on a superhero team, but he also was a pillar of the DC SA - own title, JLA, Super Friends, cartoons, Arrowverse tv, etc.  So I think your view of CA is a bit too inflated.

This is where our two different philosophies drastically alter our rankings. What I like about that is...I believe your point of view holds weight and is worth considering for anyone whose criteria is closer to my side of the fence. I probably value Hollywood success a bit more than you do, to the point of valuing Cap's cinematic success more than a period of comic book dominance (had Cap produced a stretch of being the No. 1 superhero in comics, which he didn't).

To expand on that, I put more weight on Batman being a top character in the 2010s than I do Superman being a top character in the 1950s. There is more invested into these characters than ever before, so I value these later decades a bit more than some of the previous ones. Because of this, I believe that it's possible for Detective #27 to eventually surpass Action #1. I've not lost sight of past success, so Captain Marvel's dominant run in comics and him being the first superhero to be featured in film are two of the reasons why I have Whiz #2 ranked ahead of other books, like All-American #16. Both Marvel Comics #1 and Cap #1 get a bit of an extra boost in my rankings due to where the Marvel Universe is today and how strong it's run has been over the last 60 or so years.

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Wonder Woman is a stronger character than CA over the life of her publication history.  Continuous publication, DC SA pillar, JLA, Super Friends and other cartoons, classic TV series of the 70s, movies, etc.  Agree that AS 8 would be a huger book if it had WW on the cover.  But, even without, the CGC 9.4 AS 8 outperformed the CGC 9.4 CA 1 - and did so two years before the CA 1 hit market.  For me, personally, there is a distinction between a hierarchy of characters and of covers, and I'm a bit confused which you are talking about here.

My "Golden Age Hierarchy" is my ranking of the top GA books, not the top GA characters. Because "cover art" is an important (but certainly not the "only") factor, All-Star Comics #8 is lower than it would be with a Sensation #1-like cover. As I said before, I would rank Detective #27 over Action #1 if the latter had the cover art for Action #2.

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CM was at one time in the GA the biggest superhero of all.  He was in continuous publication much longer than CA, and was only stopped by the DC lawsuit.  He was revived in the 70s, put on TV in the 70s, and is in movies now.  Still, I agree that CA has the edge right now - because of the MCU strength.  That may change now that CA is out of the MCU. The present comic market is not very significant to me.

I really enjoyed the Shazam film even though it didn't match what I felt was one of the "coolest" representations of the character. I personally prefer the Kingdom Come portrayal to the more comedic version, but both work. That's bonus points for Whiz #2.

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I don't know what your criteria for comic covers is.  I haven't seen it on this site.  But, I don't think the three covers you mention would make anyone's list if they weren't first appearances.  I don't think many would argue those three covers are the best on their titles.  So you appear to be conflating the quality of a cover with the historical import of the book.  Which I think is a mistake.

I'm definitely conflating the historical significance of a book with the cover art. I know "artistic detail" isn't the best phrase to use, but by that measure, covers like Action #1 and Amazing Fantasy #15 might not even be considered "good" by higher standards. For me, and this is just personal preference, that's not what I'm looking for as a collector. The imagery of the Action #1, Cap #1, AF #15 covers has been burned into my memory since childhood. It's had an impact on me as a collector. You get those goosebumps that books with objectively superior "artistic detail" do not produce. We simply value cover art from two very different perspectives, which I think is a good thing.

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Wonder Woman's origin is one of the most well known.  So well known, she's nicknamed the "Amazon Princess."  In comics, it's been reprinted many many times.  In fact, it was reprinted in the first issue of Ms. magazine at the start of the feminist movement.  It also was re-told in the 70s Lynda Carter tv movie/series.  And has been the subject of a major motion picture.  So, I'm not in agreement here.

We can agree to disagree. Both origins are so iconic, I can't knock taking "B" over "A" or "A" over "B."

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Winter Soldier and 2010 comics are not my reference points.  But, no way is Bucky the second greatest side kick.  He was the second sidekick at Timely.  He had no Marvel SA or BA presence - arguably less important a sidekick for CA than the Falcon.  Far fewer comic and tv appearances than Speedy, who was a founding member of the Teen Titans and is part of the Arrowverse.  Focusing just on the GA, Bucky is not even top 3.  He never got his own book or series like Robin, Captain Marvel Jr., Mary Marvel, Marvel Family, and had fewer appearances for Timely than Toro.  Heck, even Namora got more love from Timely than Bucky.  Broadening the discussion to teen superheros, Superboy blows Bucky out of the water and all of the Teen Titans (some of which weren't really side kicks) also are of greater stature.  And although this is off-topic, it is pretty clear to me to Hewey, Dewey and Louie may be more important sidekicks these days than Bucky or Robin (e.g. DuckTales), since neither really appears in the movies (Bucky in the MCU is not Bucky the sidekick).

I would say that The Falcon was more of a partner than a sidekick. No doubt Bucky was not the 1st Timely sidekick, but he's the top one IMO.

When thinking of the top superhero sidekicks, Robin is far and away No. 1. I have Bucky at No. 2 and wouldn't rank Toro or Namora ahead, or even close to him. I don't expect to see a film titled "Toro" or "Namora" anytime soon. Bucky's evolution from top sidekick to iconic villain/anti-hero has only elevated his status.

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Two words:  Red Raven.  It just doesn't matter to me that CA first appeared in his own comic.  I also don't give Flash kudos for debuting in Flash Comics (which was an anthology).  It wasn't unique to Captain America and he wasn't the first (maybe Amazing Man?).

Great point on Red Raven. The fact that it didn't survive past the first issue is still relevant, but doesn't change him coming first. I agree with you on GA Flash. Amazing Man is another good point, with his debut coming before Red Raven and Cap. My list was limited to DC/Timely/Fawcett. I should rephrase my point then. Amongst notable (subjective, I know) long-lasting superheroes, Cap is the first to debut in his own series. The 1st appearances of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, Sandman, Spectre, The Atom, Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, Aquaman and Green Arrow all came in anthology books, with a great percentage of said books devoted to other (often far less important) characters. Outside of The Hurricane, Cap #1 is all Captain America.

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Having said all that, it is completely personal choice and there are no wrong answers.  I realize many folks love CA 1, so I'm in a minority in thinking it is very overrated.

I don't think you're in the minority per se, but you may be part of a different generation. I'm in my early 30s, so my view is influenced by the era I grew up in. Unfortunately, most people in my age group don't care about collecting comic books, let alone GA comic books. I'm in the minority within my own age group for preferring Superman > Batman (though it's close and could change depending on the year). I've long speculated that when my generation rises to greater spending-power collectively, it's tough to envision them spending more for a book featuring a character that many don't even like that much (Superman: Action #1) than a character that's beloved by so many (Batman: Detective #27). So we'll see what the future brings.

One of the most important things, to me, is seeing the passion of collectors like yourself, expressed in threads like these. The fact that 80+ years after their newsstand debuts (Batman #1 hit newsstands 80 years ago today), we care enough to say "this book should be ranked ahead of that book" or "you can't forget that character-A was the first to do "B", "C" and "D" shows the kind of impact these comics have had.

Whether you're part of the generation that had the opportunity to buy them for 10-cents or part of the generation searching for B&W newsstand photos in the hopes of just imagining what it must have felt like to be a part of that...my takeaway is that this hobby is a privilege to be a part of.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Wayne-Tec

[Cat-Man_America]

20 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Maybe pictures will help.  I view these covers as cartoony (and almost rubber band style - an animation term) compared to many of his contemporaries:

 

I think this is seen even more in his GA interiors.  He did a lot of caricatures and his figures were very very flexible.  But, don't get me wrong, I think Kirby was a great artist who could draw in a variety of styles.  For me, he hit is apex in the late 50s to mid-60s.    

 

This is an excellent example of how folks see art differently.  Those covers don’t look cartoony to me, not in the slightest.  The looser style of much of S&K’s DC work of this period is in evidence, but that isn’t cartoony, IMO.  The perspectives and figures may be a bit distorted and hurriedly drawn ...probably due to Kirby’s busy schedule... but the “coiled spring” action hero dynamics are clear.  I suppose it’s possible that where I see coiled spring dynamics you’re seeing rubber band twisting, but that’s just to-may-toe to-motto semantics.

If I wanted to point out campy, cartoony humor, I could easily find dozens, perhaps hundreds of DC golden age covers featuring the usual suspects (Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, All Star, etc., etc.) that are grown-worthy.  Apparently, DCs audience didn’t mind silliness or poking fun at their characters, but I can’t stand silly cover art.  It’s hard enough for readers to suspend disbelief trying to imagine costumed superheroes in serious settings, so I don’t get DC’s attempts at slapstick humor on hero covers at all.

Make my zombies Marvel (Timely)...

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

@Cat-Man_America that looks more like coffee than your usual beverage

[Cat-Man_America]

14 hours ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

@Cat-Man_America that looks more like coffee than your usual beverage

True, but as much as I like coffee, looks can be deceiving.  That actually was a Zombie consumed at the old Trader Vic’s in the Beverly Hilton years ago during a TV Critics Association conference.  Alas, Trader Vic’s has left the building.  The restaurant has since remodeled to appeal to a younger, hipper (strike that) more contemporarily minded crowd.  No longer are beverages served in the classic skull mug.  Gone too is the Hawaiian Tiki decor.

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Cat-Man_America
cry in beer mugs

[Knightsofold]

On 4/24/2020 at 12:51 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

I can see where you're coming from, although the "Marvel Universe" didn't establish a strong visual foothold until after WWII, with the All Winners Squad in AW #19 & 21.  Alas, that only lasted two brief issues.  One of the most quintessential Kirby style covers of the first ten (from my perspective) is the carnival wheel cover for Cap #5.  However, many of Alex Schomburg's covers featuring the Human Torch convey that feel at times, as did several other artists contributing art toward the end of the 1940's. I don't want to digress from the hierarchy discussion, so I'll post some of the covers in spoilers below that I feel have that MU feel (zombie dust included at no extra charge).

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I think the first real “Marvel Universe” feel cover is:

On 4/24/2020 at 12:51 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

I can see where you're coming from, although the "Marvel Universe" didn't establish a strong visual foothold until after WWII, with the All Winners Squad in AW #19 & 21.  Alas, that only lasted two brief issues.  One of the most quintessential Kirby style covers of the first ten (from my perspective) is the carnival wheel cover for Cap #5.  However, many of Alex Schomburg's covers featuring the Human Torch convey that feel at times, as did several other artists contributing art toward the end of the 1940's. I don't want to digress from the hierarchy discussion, so I'll post some of the covers in spoilers below that I feel have that MU feel (zombie dust included at no extra charge).

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I think the first cover with a “Marvel Universe feel” is absent from most people’s list.  No way it’s not a top 25 ga.

[Knightsofold]

On 4/24/2020 at 8:38 AM, sfcityduck said:

For me, the first "Marvel Universe" cover is this one by Alex S.:

Also, I view Jack Kirby's SA Marvel style as completely different than his GA style.  I think his GA style was cartoony (almost rubber band style), really more of an imitation of Joe Simon than anything else.  Whereas, the art of his SA style is much more substantial, realistic, and refined.  I think it is  a product of his working at DC in the 1950s (as seen in this obvious precursor to the FF):

 

WTF, There’s actually something I agree with you on... 2 even in one post....

[Cat-Man_America]

1 hour ago, Knightsofold said:

I think the first real “Marvel Universe” feel cover is:

I think the first cover with a “Marvel Universe feel” is absent from most people’s list.  No way it’s not a top 25 ga.

While placing any book on a Top 25 GA list is subjective, you can certainly make a good argument for MM #9.  As for “Marvel Universe feel” that case could be made objectively, but only if sfcityduck defines the parameters.  For instance, if we define the MU covers as being two or more featured characters sharing the spotlight, then that definition fits his criteria.  However, if the definition is more nuanced and style based, reflecting whichever featured character is presented in a dynamic action pose battling clearly insurmountable odds, then other, earlier covers would share that MU muse (even Charles Mazoujian’s Angel cover for MM #2).  Debating artist and publisher house styles is a po-tay-toe/po-tot-oh issue, very subjective, but we’re all on the same page here, Marvel zombie dust notwithstanding.  

[ChillMan]

Some say a cover-apprarance makes a 1st-appearance more valuable/desirable.  But the downside is that it makes it less rare.  Issues hyping a great new character are more likely to be bought and saved.  Whereas issues that are common/uneventful on the cover are less likely to be bought or saved.

[Cat-Man_America]

8 hours ago, ChillMan said:

Some say a cover-apprarance makes a 1st-appearance more valuable/desirable.  But the downside is that it makes it less rare.  Issues hyping a great new character are more likely to be bought and saved.  Whereas issues that are common/uneventful on the cover are less likely to be bought or saved.

By first appearance on a cover are you referring to an action scene or vignette?

There are rare books with covers which make no mention of an introduced character that will eventually take over the book ...like Archie in Pep Comics... and then there are important first appearance characters shown only in vignette ...like The Vision in Marvel Mystery #13 or Plastic Man in Police #1. How do these titles compare on a scarcity index?

Also, there are characters given full cover featured introductions ...like The Web on ZIP #27 or Stormy Foster on HIT #18... which fail to get sufficient fan support for longevity. I’m just not convinced that being featured on a cover for the first time has that much to do with the actual survival of books.  Rarity may have a variety of factors.

Some GA books with relatively uneventful covers are common while others aren’t, ...some first appearance cover books are apparently rare and others not.  There doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason to it, but I’ve never examined this analytically.  I’d love to see an study that breaks this down.  It looks to me like rarity depends on a variety of factors such as distribution, appeal of cover, delivery date, etc.

i’m not criticizing your observation here, just pondering whether this is anecdotal or recurs frequently enough to be more than just a random occurrence.  To move from “some say” to a consensus, there should be an analysis that incorporates known distribution numbers, current census data (minus known duplicate entries for crack and press resubs) and consideration of prevailing wartime factors that might’ve impacted survival of given books.

One other element left out of this discussion are rare books and more common books with special covers having nothing to do with character introduction.  These books don’t feature a first appearance, but the striking nature of the cover would supposedly insure good sales.  However, some are rare, others, less so.

Apologies in advance for the length of this response, ...too much coffee earlier (that’s my excuse and I’m sticking with it!). 

[Electricmastro]

First appearance keys:

Batman - Detective Comics #27

Superman - Action Comics #1

Wonder Woman - All-Star Comics #8

Green Lantern - All-American Comics #16

Flash - Flash Comics #1

Captain America - Captain America Comics #1

Millie Collins - Millie the Model #1

Patsy Walker - Miss America Magazine #2

Sub-Mariner - Marvel Comics #1

Human Torch - Marvel Comics #1

Archie Andrews - Pep Comics #22

Jughead Jones - Pep Comics #22

Betty Cooper - Pep Comics #22

Veronica Lodge - Pep Comics #26

Reggie Mantle - Jackpot Comics #5

Scrooge McDuck - Four Color #178

Richie Rich - Little Dot #1

Captain Marvel - Whiz Comics #2

Plastic Man - Police Comics #1

Blue Beetle - Mystery Men Comics #1

Black Terror - Exciting Comics #9

Airboy - Air Fighters Comics #2

Amazing-Man - Amazing-Man Comics #5

Edited May 20, 2020 by Electricmastro

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, Electricmastro said:

First appearance keys:

Batman - Detective Comics #23

Is this a typo on your part here?