The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/3/2022 at 1:41 AM, Malacoda said:

Also to Marvel, he wrote a famous stinker of a letter in FF#9

...and then served himself a big helping of humble pie in FF #17. 

Some great posts here recently. Paul had a very distinctive voice and was a regular attendee of the London Fair back in the day. You heard him before you saw him!

[themagicrobot]

Thorpe and Porter Double Double books published in 1969 or later quite often contained at least one comic from 1966 or 1967.

It would be interesting if someone could compile a list of all the variations of content within the Double Doubles. If we assume they contain returns then that would show what wasn’t selling !?!

Do the Double Doubles contain returns from UK newsagents or returns from US shops or a mixture of both?

The Double Doubles must be assembled from returns simply because the books have been so savagely trimmed to tidy up the edges.

Perhaps Ethel was instructed to pick out returns that still looked presentable   and sticker them with the current price and send them back out rather than batching them with 3 other old comics? That would explain a 1966 comic with a 5p price sticker on it.

The Double Doubles contain  few Marvel comics and the fact there were no exclusively Marvel Double Doubles leads me to assume not many Marvel comics remained unsold and returned in the period 1967 to 1971 at least.

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by themagicrobot

[Malacoda]

On 9/3/2022 at 1:55 PM, themagicrobot said:

It would be interesting if someone could compile a list of all the variations of content within the Double Doubles. If we assume they contain returns then that would show what wasn’t selling !?!

I think you'd have to know what the initial quantities imported were. I suspect they imported a lot more Superman / Batman titles than Blackhawk etc. 

On 9/3/2022 at 1:55 PM, themagicrobot said:

Do the Double Doubles contain returns from UK newsagents or returns from US shops or a mixture of both?

Key question indeed. I suspect a big chunk of the original imports were the US print overrun / warehouse returns rather than copies that had been in retail circulation, but based on the seeming UK distribution dates (i.e. the stamps) it definitely looks like there were a load of late returns (which may have made it to the newsstands or may have been just late warehouse returns).  Certainly if me and my 10d pocket money were choosing between a battered been-out-in-a-New York-winter US newsstand return and a crisp-looks-like-new warehouse return that had never been out of the box, I'd pick the crisp one and send the battered one back to Ethel to get Double Doubled. 

On 9/3/2022 at 1:55 PM, themagicrobot said:

The Double Doubles must be assembled from returns simply because the books have been so savagely trimmed to tidy up the edges.

Raising the question, was that merely UK newsagent wear and tear or did some of them get sent out less than perfect to start with?

On 9/3/2022 at 1:55 PM, themagicrobot said:

Perhaps Ethel was instructed to pick out returns that still looked presentable   and sticker them with the current price and send them back out rather than batching them with 3 other old comics? That would explain a 1966 comic with a 5p price sticker on it.

Does anyone know:  do those discount stamps we've seen carry on into the decimal or late 60's period?  

 

On 9/3/2022 at 1:55 PM, themagicrobot said:

The Double Doubles contain  few Marvel comics and the fact there were no exclusively Marvel Double Doubles leads me to assume not many Marvel comics remained unsold and returned in the period 1967 to 1971 at least.

Certainly nothing contradicts this 

1) We know Marvel were selling bespoke (therefore defined quantity) PV's to T&P not a bottomless barrel of returns.

2) It's rational to assume that those print runs were based on sales in some fashion. 

3)  We know Marvel in the US had sell through of anything up to 85%, so very few returns and they were more 'glamorous' and sought after here

4) We remember riding round on our bikes to multiple newsagents, far and wide, trying to find our favourite Marvel comics

5) We know that when World Distributors took over, they had (and therefore needed?) virtually no mechanism for dealing with returns.  Such returns as they got they bundled back up in 'Marvel Lucky Bags' and resold to newsagents cheaply as non-returnable. I never actually even saw a Lucky Bag, so I can't avoid the feeling that there relatively few of them around. 

[Garystar]

On 9/3/2022 at 3:32 PM, Malacoda said:

Such returns as they got they bundled back up in 'Marvel Lucky Bags' and resold to newsagents cheaply as non-returnable. I never actually even saw a Lucky Bag, so I can't avoid the feeling that there relatively few of them around

You never saw one? I’ve never heard of them. I remember lucky bags of sweets and perhaps a plastic toy but never any with a comic in. What were “Marvel lucky bags”?

[themagicrobot]

I purchased many multipack bags of Gold Key comics in the mid 1960s. But I never ever saw any bags of DCs or Marvels on my travels around the UK. If some did find their way over here it would explain the odd cents priced (not ink stamped) comics that sometimes appear on UK eBay covering months that ought to have UKPVs or ink stamps.

http://www.wymann.info/comics/Comicpac.html

[Malacoda]

On 9/3/2022 at 5:18 PM, Garystar said:

You never saw one? I’ve never heard of them. I remember lucky bags of sweets and perhaps a plastic toy but never any with a comic in. What were “Marvel lucky bags”?

So in the 70's, World distributed to newsagents (via local & national wholesalers) on a SOR basis.  Obviously, their comics were non-returnable to Marvel (and it would have been financial insanity to send them back across the Atlantic), but the newsagents could send back what returns there were to World and World would bundle them up in bags of 6 or so, shrink wrap them (relatively new technology for newsprint) and re-sell them to newsagents on a non-returnable basis.  They did this under several names, but the main one (or certainly most remembered) is Marvel Lucky Bags. 

I am pretty sure the reason I never saw one is because newsagents used to tear them open, reprice them with stickers and put them back on the shelves.  In the inflation-ravaged 70’s, this was obviously too good to be true – you could buy bags of comics for pennies and then re-price them to 10x what you paid for them. And, of course, you had little Herberts like me, delightedly finding comics from a year or more ago and excitedly asking ‘hey Mister, got any more like this?’.

I have previously shared with the group my copy of Astonishing Tales #34 (cd March 1976) bought from a spinner rack more than a year later, repriced to the then current UK price of 12p.  It’s demonstrably more than a year later because comics only went up to 12p in March 1977.

But for an even better example, here’s Thor 233 (cd March 1975) cunningly repriced with a mere +50% uplift at least 2 years after it’s original sell by date.  

 

The only person I know who consistently refers to Marvel Lucky Bags is Steve Walker (Steve Does Comics), both on pinterest and he has a regular feature on his blog called ‘the Marvel Lucky Bag’. I did write and ask him what his memories of Lucky Bags were but didn’t get an answer (or maybe I lost which thread it was on), so if anyone is on good terms with Steve, I’d love to know. He probably has a photo of one. 

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/61783826126104690/

https://stevedoescomics.blogspot.com/2022/08/the-marvel-lucky-bag-august-1982.html

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Malacoda

[Malacoda]

On 9/3/2022 at 6:39 PM, themagicrobot said:

I purchased many multipack bags of Gold Key comics in the mid 1960s. But I never ever saw any bags of DCs or Marvels on my travels around the UK. If some did find their way over here it would explain the odd cents priced (not ink stamped) comics that sometimes appear on UK eBay covering months that ought to have UKPVs or ink stamps.

http://www.wymann.info/comics/Comicpac.html

Aha!  This is exactly the idea, except that whereas the American ones were done to penetrate new markets - they were sold in 7-11's and gas stations - with a non-price sensitive approach i.e. the idea was harassed parents on long drives delightedly finding something that would keep the kids quiet for an hour (much like the re-circulated comics pushed out to UK seaside towns and caravan parks), the UK Marvel Lucky Bags were purely trying to punt out distressed inventory at a reduced price (the object being for World to see the back of them).  

[themagicrobot]

On 9/3/2022 at 6:42 PM, Malacoda said:

, but the newsagents could send back what returns there were to World and World would bundle them up in bags of 6 or so, shrink wrap them (relatively new technology for newsprint) and re-sell them to newsagents on a non-returnable basis.

Are you positive they were "shrink wrapped" rather than just being put into plastic bags that were sealed at the top? In the mid 1970s whilst still at College I had a summer job which amongst other stuff involved manning the Shrink-wrap machine. My task was to stack 10 brick-sized carboard boxes together, wrap a sheet of polythene around them, cut the sheet with a guillotine and push the parcel through the oven. Out the other side came a well shrink-wrapped parcel that was still red hot to the touch as you stacked it onto a pallet. I can't imagine comics surviving such treatment.

[Malacoda]

On 9/3/2022 at 7:03 PM, themagicrobot said:

Are you positive they were "shrink wrapped" rather than just being put into plastic bags that were sealed at the top? In the mid 1970s whilst still at College I had a summer job which amongst other stuff involved manning the Shrink-wrap machine. My task was to stack 10 brick-sized carboard boxes together, wrap a sheet of polythene around them, cut the sheet with a guillotine and push the parcel through the oven. Out the other side came a well shrink-wrapped parcel that was still red hot to the touch as you stacked it onto a pallet. I can't imagine comics surviving such treatment.

'Shrink wrapped' was the term used to describe it, but I agree, far more likely they were put in a plastic bag and sealed at the top and this was the only bit of it subjected to such treatment.  I also imagine actual shrink wrapping was relatively expensive in the 70's for distressed inventory that they were trying to get rid of as cheaply as possibly. 

I also suspect that they were mostly distributed around Manchester and surrounding environs  (where World were based) but this may be flawed logic (if you're sending newspapers and magazines to London every day, does it add measurable cost to stick some Lucky Bags on the van?). 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Malacoda

[themagicrobot]

On 9/3/2022 at 7:11 PM, Malacoda said:

I also suspect that they were mostly distributed around Manchester and surrounding environs  (where World were based) but this may be flawed logic

The title of this thread (currently) is the-distribution-of-us-published-comics-in-the-uk-1959~1982  It appears that distribution wasn't uniform across our country. Some towns/cities were covered well. Others not so. There may well have been bags of remaindered comics sold 60 miles away from me that never reached my corner shop. L Miller's distribution of Charltons may have only covered the southern half of the country. Alan Class may well have driven to various seaside resorts to clear all his thousands of unsold back issues. Other places never saw any Class comics. There probably were comics arriving at docks as "ballast" at London, Liverpool and Glasgow. Some with "water stains". Marvel comics were quite scarce in my rural area in the 1960s until I moved to Birmingham and suddenly they were plentiful. Had they always been easily available in Birmingham?  The mere fact that there actually was the-distribution-of-us-published-comics-in-the-uk-1959~1982 is a wonder of the C20th equal to there really being a Loch Ness Monster.

[Malacoda]

On 9/3/2022 at 7:37 PM, themagicrobot said:

The title of this thread (currently) is the-distribution-of-us-published-comics-in-the-uk-1959~1982  It appears that distribution wasn't uniform across our country. Some towns/cities were covered well. Others not so. There may well have been bags of remaindered comics sold 60 miles away from me that never reached my corner shop. L Miller's distribution of Charltons may have only covered the southern half of the country. Alan Class may well have driven to various seaside resorts to clear all his thousands of unsold back issues. Other places never saw any Class comics. There probably were comics arriving at docks as "ballast" at London, Liverpool and Glasgow. Some with "water stains". Marvel comics were quite scarce in my rural area in the 1960s until I moved to Birmingham and suddenly they were plentiful. Had they always been easily available in Birmingham?  The mere fact that there actually was the-distribution-of-us-published-comics-in-the-uk-1959~1982 is a wonder of the C20th equal to there really being a Loch Ness Monster.

I think you're right. It is massively inconsistent both in the 60's and 70's but in completely different ways. Seemingly, T&P had a far more boots-on-the-ground approach, with FTE reps driving a fleet of vans full of comics, mags, books etc, tending the spinner racks themselves, picking up the returns, and actually seeming to be more involved in the logistics and management than the newsagents were a lot of the time. I have yet to figure out how they covered Wales and Scotland. Probably ...very badly.  World was a completely different kettle of fish.  They took orders from local and national wholesalers directly and dispatched accordingly, but, if I understand correctly, although they dealt with the three major national distributors (WH Smiths, John Menzies and Surridge Dawson) they got their orders in from the local branches, local wholesalers of those companies, not a centralised office, and the amount of comics, mags etc each one ordered was entirely up to them.  There was no input from a rep pushing this or that. So the coverage/distribution was driven by demand, not supply.  If you had a very on-the-ball, watching-the-sales figures wholesaler in one area, you might have a completely different experience of collecting Marvel comics to the next town where the wholesaler was entirely focussed on newspapers and porn. This might very well partly explain that phenomenon you mention that we associate with Alan Class - the memories people have of comics being more available in seaside towns.  Literally, the local wholesalers (and more likely the local town wholesalers as there were a ton of those dealing directly with World as well) just knew there was a horde of kids coming and ordered accordingly. 

It potentially also explains why there were bugger all Marvel returns. Each branch ordered what was selling in their neck of the woods and if something wasn't then they course-corrected on a monthly basis.  

By the way, a job as a sales rep at T&P included personal use of a company van, which was a 15 CWT Ford van, like this.  Does that mean you can use it for anything?  (Asking for a friend). 

 

 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 9/3/2022 at 3:32 PM, Malacoda said:

Does anyone know:  do those discount stamps we've seen carry on into the decimal or late 60's period?  

There are some 3p triangular ones, will try to dig out an example or two.

[themagicrobot]

The majority of those oddly-sized mid 1960s Marked for Murder I have seen for sale have half-price stamps adorning them. That series must have been a massive flop.

 

 

 

You're asked to place an order for Miracle Man rather than just hope to see it appear on the spinner rack as you did with Action and Detective comics.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by themagicrobot

[Malacoda]

On 9/3/2022 at 7:37 PM, themagicrobot said:

Alan Class may well have driven to various seaside resorts to clear all his thousands of unsold back issues.

On the subject of seaside specials, this collector (whose memory seems pretty precise), describes finding Cap 123 (from March 1970) still on sale....or recirculated....in 1973 in a gift shop in Cornwall. 

The rest of this is interesting if you're into the memorabilia (I particularly like the Hulk poncho and utility belt which clearly show a detailed knowledge of the character) but if not, I recommend skipping to the end and having a little drool over his collection. 

 

 

[Garystar]

On 9/4/2022 at 4:34 PM, Malacoda said:

On the subject of seaside specials, this collector (whose memory seems pretty precise), describes finding Cap 123 (from March 1970) still on sale....or recirculated....in 1973 in a gift shop in Cornwall. 

The rest of this is interesting if you're into the memorabilia (I particularly like the Hulk poncho and utility belt which clearly show a detailed knowledge of the character) but if not, I recommend skipping to the end and having a little drool over his collection. 

 

 

I recommend watching it all, it’s fantastically presented…… it’s me on my mate’s YouTube site .

At the same gift shop at the same time I also got Cap 122, Thor 172, 173, Avengers 73, sgt fury 73, iron man 21, 22, x-men 64 and Silver Surfer 10.

Unfortunately I don’t recall how they were priced and as we know SS #10 doesn’t exist as a UKPV or a stamp. They were all in as new condition. 
 

Also of interest a friend of mine went there a few weeks later and I asked him to get me some comics and he got me SS#12 and DD#60 which weren’t there when I was. A few weeks after that another friend was holidaying in the area and again I asked him to get me some comics and he came back with SS#13 and FF#96 - so the shop was getting in new stock and from the Silver Surfer’s apparently in date order albeit 4 years old. 
 

It was a gift shop shack in a little village called Pentewan - unfortunately the shop is long gone. 

[themagicrobot]

Some things just stick in your mind.

I was on holiday with the family at Reighton Gap on the Yorkshire coast in the second week of June 1967. (The only reason I know the date is because I recall the news. The Arab Israeli six-day war was happening at the time). The site shop had a spinner, and most of its content made me think I had entered some time portal and gone backwards a year or more. I purchased a brand new Fantastic Four 50 (you never forget that particular cover) which had a May 1966 date on it. Also more Marvels from a similar period. Also two L Miller Marvelmans brand new. I recall the Marvelmans had a tank and a plane on the covers, Just checked them out at the GCD. They were 331 and 332 and looked brand new yet must have been printed in 1960 or 1961. New-old stock circulating at holiday resorts??  

Some things just stick in your mind.

  

[themagicrobot]

On 9/4/2022 at 5:05 PM, Garystar said:

I recommend watching it all, it’s fantastically presented…… it’s me on my mate’s YouTube site .

Wow. Well done Gary. That must be one of the best Marvel collections in the UK. 

[Malacoda]

On 9/4/2022 at 5:05 PM, Garystar said:

I recommend watching it all, it’s fantastically presented…… it’s me on my mate’s YouTube site .

Wow.  Seriously, that is an astounding collection in every way.  The research, the hunting, the dedication, the knowledge....the sheer bloody stamina. And all this time, you've walked among us!   To think, I live in mortal fear of the day my gf works out what my collection is actually worth (you know, in real things, like holidays and shoes). This is next level. 

Strange Tales #1 - 12.   Dude. 

[Kevin.J]

On 9/4/2022 at 5:05 PM, Garystar said:

I recommend watching it all, it’s fantastically presented…… it’s me on my mate’s YouTube site .

At the same gift shop at the same time I also got Cap 122, Thor 172, 173, Avengers 73, sgt fury 73, iron man 21, 22, x-men 64 and Silver Surfer 10.

Unfortunately I don’t recall how they were priced and as we know SS #10 doesn’t exist as a UKPV or a stamp. They were all in as new condition. 
 

Also of interest a friend of mine went there a few weeks later and I asked him to get me some comics and he got me SS#12 and DD#60 which weren’t there when I was. A few weeks after that another friend was holidaying in the area and again I asked him to get me some comics and he came back with SS#13 and FF#96 - so the shop was getting in new stock and from the Silver Surfer’s apparently in date order albeit 4 years old. 
 

It was a gift shop shack in a little village called Pentewan - unfortunately the shop is long gone. 

Great stuff

I dont have anything like that level of memorabilia and what I have has been packed away unseen for the last 25 years, I always concentrated more on the comics, but it was great to see a few things pop up what I haven't seen in a long time, I love the Golden records reprints with records, I still need the Avengers 4, seen a lot of people with the comics, not so many intact.

I love the Strange Tales #1, I had a wtb thread for one here when I first joined and passed on a few what were too pricey but would be bargains now (it's always the way  )

Yeah, fantastic

[Malacoda]

On 9/4/2022 at 5:05 PM, Garystar said:

At the same gift shop at the same time I also got Cap 122, Thor 172, 173, Avengers 73, sgt fury 73, iron man 21, 22, x-men 64 and Silver Surfer 10.

Unfortunately I don’t recall how they were priced and as we know SS #10 doesn’t exist as a UKPV or a stamp. They were all in as new condition. 
 

Also of interest a friend of mine went there a few weeks later and I asked him to get me some comics and he got me SS#12 and DD#60 which weren’t there when I was. A few weeks after that another friend was holidaying in the area and again I asked him to get me some comics and he came back with SS#13 and FF#96 - so the shop was getting in new stock and from the Silver Surfer’s apparently in date order albeit 4 years old. 
 

It was a gift shop shack in a little village called Pentewan - unfortunately the shop is long gone. 

I have a theory for you.  Check out the dates.   You bought these in 1973.  So despite being years old, they are all in a really tight window of time (Nov 69 to Mar 70 cover dates) 

Cap 122  (Feb 1970) 

Cap 123 (March 1970) 

Thor 172  ( Jan 1970) 

Thor 173 (Feb 1970) 

Avengers 73 (Feb 1970) 

Sgt Fury 73 (Dec 1969) 

Iron Man 21 (Jan 1970) 

Iron Man 22 (Feb 1970) 

X men 64  (Jan 1970) 

Silver Surfer 10  (Nov 1969)  

Then we jump to 

Surfer 12  (Jan 1970) 

DD 60 (Jan 1970) 

Then 

SS  13 (Feb 1970) 

FF96  (March 1970) 

So moving forward as you say, but again inside the same window.  T&P operated from a series of depots and I believe the furthest one West was in Plymouth, which was an outpost of the Empire.  T&P reps filled up their own vans from the depots and went round their own patches.  By 1973, you are firmly in the period when Marvel was being distributed by World, not T&P, however it's impossible that a load of Marvels from 69/70 could have been in the hands of World.  They MUST have been from a box of old Marvel comics sitting in a T&P warehouse.  Now,  if you're a T&P rep and you know there's a load of old Marvels from 1969/70 sitting in the warehouse in Plymouth and you know Marvel sell better than DC, or one of your retailers has asked you to keep an eye out, or if we want to be more cynical about it,  you figure 'well, it's a gift shop in Pentewan, doesn't matter what I give them, I can unload that box of old leftovers that's been in the warehouse since we lost Marvel, no need to give them the up to date stuff',  however it goes down, you've got a box of stuff to unload and somewhere to unload it. 

That does explain why they all come from the same time period, where they were for 3 years, why things were (happily) a bit different in Cornwall and why they also got replenished seemingly from the same Tardis. 

I also suspect that this moment in time (70/71) was a moment when a lot of marooned comics which might formerly have been returned did not get returned.  You would imagine that T&P would have honoured the SOR even after they lost Marvel as a client......but did they? 

By the way, I'm sure you've noticed, but several of those comics you mention are on my Most Wanted list.  Any chance you still have those particular copies of Iron Man 21 & 22 and X men 64?  I think we've spoken about that copy of Surfer 10 before.   Many thanks, Gary.