The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/25/2023 at 4:01 PM, Malacoda said:

I think that Sparta changing over to containers opened up the possibility that first run supply with container shipping was now viable and, as long as that was happening, it would have made no sense NOT to change to PV's.

But they didn't. They stopped immediately and reverted to the returns model. In fact, they never stopped it, if the stamped cents copies of the existing 1971 UKPVs are any indication?

What shipping model did the ongoing post 1971 DC stamped returns go through? If the new container one, then the only cost change is the difference in the old shipping method (port to port) vs the new. 

[OtherEric]

Just jumping in with my occasional "I have nothing to contribute at this point but I'm loving the discussion" comment.  Keep it coming, everyone!

[Malacoda]

On 10/25/2023 at 12:49 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

unless it cut the cost of labour involved in the stamping process, but surely that would have been tiny compared to the other costs of running the business, rent and or/rates, record keeping, transport and fuel, and all the rest.

I agree, but Ethel was probably a single cost wholly attributable to the comics which was wholly eliminable by PV's.  You couldn't do anything about the fixed costs, but she was a wholly variable cost.  (Sorry, Eth). 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/25/2023 at 3:00 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

Let us single out just one of the comics under discussion, say JO # 139.

Under the old system, some, possibly a known quantity, possibly an unknown quantity, would have arrived at T & P nearly 6 months after US readers had had the privilege of discovering what was depicted between its covers.

Under the new system, a known quantity would have arrived seemingly 3 months in advance of its companions, the returns from US outlets.

So Fred and his gang would have no further need of fresh supplies of that issue.

Would it have been cost-effective to ask for JO # 139 (cents version) to be weeded out of future return cargoes? Probably not.

Did Fred factor in the late arriving cents returns when placing his UKPV order?

Who will help by posting the minutes of the board meetings at T & P?

Maybe these matters were discussed there at even greater length than we have here.

Or then again, maybe not.

 

 

 

 

Funnily enough, I have one each of JO #139:

So we got both. And as you pointed out, they likely arrived in the UK at different times assuming the UKPV was run at the same time as the cents, and shipped straight away. The pence copies went into the market, and there are no recollections that I have seen of anyone noting that they were pence printed and - in theory - ahead of issue schedule by a few months (if schedule there were). Odd, really, that we can't find a snippet online or in any of these fanzines that mention the event.

If the 5p version was printed specifically to test the new distribution system that Rich has outlined, then there would need to have been learning checkpoints put in place along the way. Everyone involved would have had to have instructions, and a set of criteria to record and comment upon to feed back to the decision makers. What could those benchmarks have been? Did they arrive. Yes. Did they arrive on time. Not sure we'll ever know now, but someone would have been checking that. What went right, what went wrong. Etc. All that test data gets gathered up and sent back to the decision makers. How are they gauging whether it was a success, or something that they would want to continue? What were the options, at that point?

If we look at Rich's options:

Old System:

WCP distribute new comics to US wholesalers with cents prices, then IND round up the unsolds, batch them into sales consignments, haul them to the docks and ship them by traditional shipping / break bulk cargo to Liverpool, where they're hauled to Leicester to reprocessed by the Ethels and re-stamped with pence prices. 

New system: 

WCP print PV's and ship them by container directly, at time of printing, straight to Newark where they're shipped to Felixstowe in the same container, which is then driven to Leicester, where they're unpacked with no need for Ethel to re-stamp them and are ready for distribution. 

What are the salient differences between those two models from the UK worker's perspective? Both result in the arrival at a UK port, with onward transmission to Leicester. Everything prior would be US agents work, which they'd set a price for (as they presumably did for the T&P Marvel UKPVs). So what really is the learning that the 'DC' decision makers were seeking? If it was a proof of concept, the US could have just sent cents copies which T&P would have stamped. Why muddy the waters with printed UKPVs, if you are simply negotiating a price for a new model and showing the client how it will work? And would that really be it, this proof of concept. One container. One test. Does that sound right? 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

@Malacoda Rich, you've done marvellously well with all this and you know how highly I rate what you do, your attention to detail and your ability to delve into the mechanics of the situation on the ground which I have never gone near. But I am unconvinced, my friend, on this one. I'm not saying it's wrong, or ill-founded, I'm just not feeling it. And I think you can present it clearer, and in a more concise manner. There's simply too much information to digest, for me, and some of my comments are likely querying elements that you have actually outlined, but which I have missed.

I'm in awe of you though, Richmond, if that wasn't clear to anyone else reading 

[Get Marwood & I]

We're trending, boys!

Narrowly beating the marijuana thread 

I think I need some...

 

[Malacoda]

On 10/25/2023 at 12:20 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

The UKPV copies were printed because T & P asked for them to be printed, surely, and not because they had been forced to accept them.

Keeping the machine running on cents copies would have saved time.

And T & P could have laid off a few of Ethel's colleagues.

Wonder if they considered going on strike over the threatened redundancies.

Again, I think the PV's are bi-product.  Keeping the machines running, well, they loaded the presses with 6 tons of paper at a time, they printed about 11 comics per second and the plant ran 24 hours a day.  I feel like our imaginings of time saving and cost savings and so on are probably not based on reality. 

I think, however, relative to the profit margins on each comic at T&P, which was surely fractions of a penny, laying off a few Ethels might have actually had a measurable impact.  

[Malacoda]

On 10/25/2023 at 2:29 PM, themagicrobot said:

My theory is that it was a planned change to send us DCs with pence prices that was aborted at the last moment. 
Perhaps someone authorised it and then someone higher up said “what are we then going to do with our returns? Those mugs in the UK have been giving us good money for old leftovers as well as all those pallets full that never even found their way out of the printers for a decade now. It seems a shame to go back to pulping the returns once more.”

Completely agree, though it may not even have been that way round.  T&P may have been buying returns by the ton (literally, Fred started out buying newspapers by the ton, sold the supplements as glossy mags and shipped the paper to India as wrapping paper).  Might be that the PV's were foisted on them at significantly increased cost and the reason it got no further was because they absolutely refused.  By the time T&P went over to PV's in 1978, there had been 3 changes in management, so it was a very different world by then.   

[Malacoda]

On 10/25/2023 at 2:56 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Sorry to butt in before getting the go ahead, but are you really saying this simple process was an 'unknown' to these distribution specialists, and that the cost couldn't be calculated based on previous design components or by simply asking for a price up to the point of UK arrival?

Sorry, you have the go ahead.  

Not so much that it was unknown as new and untested. I don't think ascertaining the cost was by any means the key issue. Keep in mind that this would involved big changes at the other end too.  There is absolutely no way that the warehouse in Thurmaston was built with container facilities.  Not a chance.  I don't have a pic of the warehouse, but this is what Thurmaston looked like. 

[Malacoda]

On 10/25/2023 at 3:00 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

Let us single out just one of the comics under discussion, say JO # 139.

Under the old system, some, possibly a known quantity, possibly an unknown quantity, would have arrived at T & P nearly 6 months after US readers had had the privilege of discovering what was depicted between its covers.

Under the new system, a known quantity would have arrived seemingly 3 months in advance of its companions, the returns from US outlets.

So Fred and his gang would have no further need of fresh supplies of that issue.

Would it have been cost-effective to ask for JO # 139 (cents version) to be weeded out of future return cargoes? Probably not.

Did Fred factor in the late arriving cents returns when placing his UKPV order?

Agree. I mean, if they had several consecutive months of issues turning up in the same batch, some issues turning up month after month, some titles never putting in an appearance and some months when literally every comic that rocked up had already turned up in a previous month and they couldn't sort any of that out, there's no chance these 5 rogue issues got their own VIP treatment. 

[Malacoda]

On 10/25/2023 at 3:00 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

Who will help by posting the minutes of the board meetings at T & P?

At this stage, the minutes of T&P board meetings would be like porn to me. 

Which is ironic considering that is probably what they spent most of the time discussing. 

[Get Marwood & I]

Ever been there, Albert? @Albert Tatlock

[Malacoda]

On 10/25/2023 at 3:00 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Trial what!? T&P had been importing (Marvel) new comics for years at this point. What are they trialling!? 

Receiving DC comics directly from Sparta via container shipping.  You're actually kind of agreeing with me in the issue that you're identifying.  Why did DC experiment with PV's at this point when they had all the data from Marvel?  PV's. Tick. Printed in Sparta. Tick (and ECP). First run new comics. Tick.  Exported to T&P. Tick.  They were even the distributor for Marvel in the first 5 months when Marvel were sending both stamps and PV's to T&P.  And owned T&P.

The only thing that had change was the shipping method.  And, as far as I can see, the only thing that was tested by this tiny 5 comic trial, was the shipping method.  

[Malacoda]

On 10/25/2023 at 3:19 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Is that scraping noise the sound of goal posts moving, Rich?

I'll shut up now, until you've signalled the finish of the fight back 

No, not at all.  I think our question is 'why did DC experiment with PV's?' because we're obsessed with PV's, but maybe asking that question is like when you ask of a magician 'wow, how did he do that?'  to which the answer is, invariably, that he didn't. 

Re the fight back, keep it coming. I'm only 2 hours behind now. 

[Malacoda]

On 10/25/2023 at 4:02 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

But they were already doing that, Rich, with the DC returns, for ten years. It's 'all they had been doing' since 1960.

True, but the fact that you're already doing something doesn't mean you will never do anything else.  If the fact that they had been on the returns system for 11 years in 1971 meant they couldn't possibly change, then they would definitely not be able to change in 1978 when they'd been on it for 18 years. But that's exactly what happened.  

[Malacoda]

On 10/25/2023 at 4:02 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

If leaving the printing press on for an extra 15 minutes to produce UKPVs represents 'absolutely nothing' by comparison then why didn't they do that in the 1960s as they did for Marvel.  

Well, that's a different 'they'.  DC were printed in Sparta from 1955 onwards.  In the 60's Marvel were printed by ECP who were a much smaller outfit. 

That aside, the reason is that T&P wanted the returns for below-wholesale costs rather than wholesale for, you know, wholesale costs. 

Also, printing a single run of 5 issues as a one-off experiment is obviously not the same as printing a publishing house's entire output for a decade, but I think the real point is that what Sparta charged customers was what the market would bear and what it cost them was a very different number.  We may be confusing the expense associated with a one-off proof of concept with their actual business model.    

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/25/2023 at 4:02 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

And who won the FA Cup in 1979?

This is a very old trick question.

It was Sunderland (I was there).

And Villa won it in '81.

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/25/2023 at 5:34 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Ever been there, Albert? @Albert Tatlock

Not yet, but I intend to make a pilgrimage one day, if the Lord spares me long enough

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/25/2023 at 5:24 PM, Malacoda said:

Sorry, you have the go ahead.  

Not so much that it was unknown as new and untested. I don't think ascertaining the cost was by any means the key issue. Keep in mind that this would involved big changes at the other end too.  There is absolutely no way that the warehouse in Thurmaston was built with container facilities.  Not a chance.  I don't have a pic of the warehouse, but this is what Thurmaston looked like. 

Could that be Ethel on the way to lay in more ciggies?

[Malacoda]

On 10/25/2023 at 4:02 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Who was 'testing' the new system against the Marvels, then?

No one. Marvel had always had wayyyyy greater sell through than DC (and for a long time, supply choked off by Harry Donenfeld), so Marvel never had the mountain of returns that DC did.  I think that Fred's deal for PV's was probably negotiated directly with Marvel and ECP and IND were not involved.  That's why the deal with Marvel is so different to DC.  If you think it through, it goes like this:  From 1957, IND were doing everything to screw Marvel over.  Marvels in the US were distributed by IND, who massively restricted how many titles they could have.  So if Marvel had wanted the DC deal with Fred, they would have to have gone cap in hand to IND to scoop up all the returns to export to the UK, which would have just replicated the same situation they were in in the US: DC would have chopped them off at the knees with a terrible deal again. And Fred expected returns at dirt cheap prices.  However, if they dealt directly with Fred with new comics rather than returns (of which they had few and those few they had were in the hands of IND), they could strike a totally advantageous deal and utterly cane DC in the UK. 

Also, I think because DC so limited Marvel's opportunities in the US (and because Stan was an Anglophile with an English wife), Marvel were always far more focussed on the UK market.  

For Marvel, from 1969, T&P had always been supplied directly out of Sparta, so when Sparta changed over to containers, Marvel just went that way. There was nothing to test because Marvel had no choices to make.  Also they were gagging for it. The minute everything went containers, they flipped straight to World.  

Sorry those points sound disjointed, but the connection is that Marvel were always on a completely different path to DC and so there was no testing to do.