The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Malacoda]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:01 AM, baggsey said:

I suppose the question is whether DC set the pricing on those 5 UKPV issues, having made the decision themselves, or was the price printed at the request of the UK distributors? I'm guessing that there was so much worry about the future fluctuating nature of the currency that T&P decided it made more sense to price manually in the UK.

We're very focussed on the physical comics, the prices, stamps etc, which tends to make us look at those as the main event and work back from there. I think the key issue about the 5 DC PV's, which maybe I failed to emphasise enough, is that they must have been first-run comics, printed specifically for the UK.  For 12 years, DC comics had been printed solely for the US market, distributed all over the US, been on sale for months, been gathered back up again, re-batched and exported as seconds, leftovers, at practically waste-paper prices to the UK.  I think the change from this to (presumably) wholesale-priced,  bespoke-printed, UK-specific comics is the key point. Having made that decision, it was a no brainer to get the prices in UK currency. We know that the reason DC comics were stamped cents copies was because they were US returns, and the reason Marvel were PV's was because they were printed for T&P from the get-go, so as soon as the decision to send a test batch of originals straight from the presses was taken, it was a no-brainer to get them with PV's.      

The decision to move from what was essentially left over waste-material being dispatched months after printing in extremely unequal quantities of titles to a bespoke print run in defined quantities and defined quantities of each title, is, in my opinion, the main event. The fact that they had pence prices on them is a side issue, and, in my opinion, far less consequential.  Does it seem more likely that they decided to experiment with pence prices and then, for the sale of that, changed the entire distribution and cost structure round that,  or does it seem more likely that they decided to experiment with distribution and changed the cover prices to pence because the distribution change presented the opportunity to do that?  Which one of those two things seems like the bigger deal?

I think you're right about T&P making (or driving) the decision to stay with stamping, but I don't think it was because it gave them greater flexibility to alter the pricing.  They were only on a 3 month notice window with IND anyway, but, more tellingly, they simply didn't change the prices that much in this period (GS thing excepted).  In 1974, when the paper shortage adds to the inflation, it goes nuts, but in 1971, after the GS thing prices settle at 20c and 6p and stay there until 1974.  It's possible that they retained the stamping to retain pricing flexibility and then never used it, but it's certain that they never used it.  This makes me think it was a distribution experiment. 

The other problem is that out of the 26 DC titles, only five of them had PV's.  If this was about currency, price etc, surely they would have done it with all titles? 

All of that said, it's still conjecture on my part that this was to test out the newly installed container distribution system. That being the case, it does explain why it was such a minimal trial (it was foisted on T&P....maybe given to them as a cheap deal?) and they didn't want it. They wanted cheap returns.   To your point, the key first piece of information is: was this driven by T&P or IND/DC?  I think my answer (that IND wanted to test their new distribution system and T&P said 'OK then, but as long as we're doing this, please print PV's') makes sense.   However, your point about the timing - they decided to try it out and between that decision and the execution, things got a lot more unstable, is clearly a strong one.      

 

 

[Malacoda]

On 11/22/2023 at 5:37 PM, OtherEric said:

The glorious season where those that call it grassy knoll time can all get along peacefully with those of us who celebrate Doctor Who eve instead.

Here, have a look at something I just noticed on a book I've had for a while:  a handwritten 2/6 price.  If I recall I picked this up at a comic show several years ago, no idea how it got back to the US:

Good spot.  Eric, what's the date on this please? I'm assuming, though it looks 1950's, it's actually post-1959? Thanks. 

 

 

[OtherEric]

On 11/22/2023 at 10:10 AM, Malacoda said:

Good spot.  Eric, what's the date on this please? I'm assuming, though it looks 1950's, it's actually post-1959? Thanks. 

 

 

October 1958.  But that doesn't necessarily tell us anything about when it made its way to the UK in the first place.

[baggsey]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:07 PM, Malacoda said:

To your point, the key first piece of information is: was this driven by T&P or IND/DC?  I think my answer (that IND wanted to test their new distribution system and T&P said 'OK then, but as long as we're doing this, please print PV's') makes sense.   However, your point about the timing - they decided to try it out and between that decision and the execution, things got a lot more unstable, is clearly a strong one.      

 

 

Assuming the decision to drive UKPV's was an opportunity driven by IND's intention for future DC comics sent to the UK to be sourced from first-run comics, rather than returns, do we have evidence that the time between printing in Sparta and arrival on UK spinner racks reduced drastically as a result?  Assuming that UK-bound comics post April 1971 continued to be sourced from brand new printings despite still having a US price on them.

From memory, monthly DC comics I collected in Portsmouth in the late 1971 period onwards were rarely more than two issues behind comics on US stands, and finding a new comic out of sequence was quite rare. Of course, memory plays tricks...

[Malacoda]

On 11/22/2023 at 6:14 PM, OtherEric said:

October 1958.  But that doesn't necessarily tell us anything about when it made its way to the UK in the first place.

It doesn't, but it's kind of perfectly in the sweet spot.  If it was a first US distribution in the last months of 1958 and got returned, it could easily have still been hanging around when the ban lifted in 1959.  When the opportunity to get hold of American magazines resumed, it was 'give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses' ....they took anything they could get with a glossy cover.  Also, you can see there is a massive disparity in price - 2/6 was about 84c at that point, so if Fred got it for a few cents on the dollar he made a fortune. 

[Malacoda]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:07 PM, baggsey said:

Assuming the decision to drive UKPV's was an opportunity driven by IND's intention for future DC comics sent to the UK to be sourced from first-run comics, rather than returns, do we have evidence that the time between printing in Sparta and arrival on UK spinner racks reduced drastically as a result?  Assuming that UK-bound comics post April 1971 continued to be sourced from brand new printings despite still having a US price on them.

Not that I know of. Apart from the memories of collectors such as yourself, and, of course, Albert's Necronomicon, I think the only things that would deliver that would be (a) some kind of documentary evidence like a film or photo from the time (b) a date stamp - which, if it existed on a PV would be a giveaway, but then how would you reconcile to the arrival of the stamped cents copy? or (c) a price change.  This last one is the gold standard - it's how you can tell that the Marvel stamped cents that arrived, ending at this point in time, were exported at the same time as the PV's.  However, the DC PV's have the same prices as their stamped counterparts, so no smoking gun there. 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Malacoda

[Malacoda]

One thing that is pretty much as you'd expect: the PV's seem to be much more plentiful than the stamped cents copies. 

[Malacoda]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:07 PM, baggsey said:

From memory, monthly DC comics I collected in Portsmouth in the late 1971 period onwards were rarely more than two issues behind comics on US stands, and finding a new comic out of sequence was quite rare. Of course, memory plays tricks...

That's very interesting.  It's significantly at odds with the memories of other DC collectors, although maybe that's at different times.  After 1971, everything is moving in containers, so it would get massively faster and potentially more cohesive, even if we're talking about the returns. 

[Malacoda]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:07 PM, baggsey said:

Of course, memory plays tricks...

I feel like you would remember this accurately.  If it was a one-off or once-in-a-blue-moon memory of something to which you were somewhat indifferent, you might well misremember, but this would have been every month for ages and in relation to something that (I imagine) was life and death to you. 

I've told this before, but the thing I remember really vividly was always walking to Twickenham rail station for Marvels because the news vendor there seemed to have a better selection than normal  newsagents and, when last month's comics had all disappeared from every newsagent in the world, you could still get them at the station.  

I later assumed I must have....well, not exactly imagined it, but remembered it as a far more definite thing than it was.  What I have subsequently discovered is that the rail stations had a different distributor to the newsagents, hence the changeover date and selection was different. Simple as that. I would trust your gut on this one. 

[Malacoda]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:07 PM, baggsey said:

From memory, monthly DC comics I collected in Portsmouth in the late 1971 period onwards were rarely more than two issues behind comics on US stands, and finding a new comic out of sequence was quite rare. Of course, memory plays tricks...

Of course, another causal factor might be the presence of a rep there.  We've heard many times that comics were far more plentiful and regularly supplied in coastal / seaside towns, and, as far as I can tell, despite being very Midlands-centric, T&P did go out of their way to hire reps in coastal towns (Bristol, Bridgend, Colwyn Bay, Liverpool, Runcorn, Widnes, Llandudno etc).  They had a depot in Plymouth which wasn't much different in size to Portsmouth in those days.  I can't believe the South Coast was handled from London, so I can easily imagine there was a rep in or near Portsmouth. 

 

[baggsey]

On 11/22/2023 at 4:53 PM, Malacoda said:

 but this would have been every month for ages and in relation to something that (I imagine) was life and death to you. 

 

You're spot on about this being life and death for me back in those days! Probably for all of us.   It is burned into my mind that the duration between the appearance of the comics in Portsmouth and US publication was no more than two monthly issues behind from the time I started to take notice, which was certainly during the 25-cent DC period (mid 71-mid 72). I am aware that collectors of comics I know who were collecting in the late sixties believe that the gap was much wider, so perhaps improved container distribution coupled with non-return comics reduced the cycle time to the UK. Of course, that would mean that a glut of new comics would have occurred on UK spinner racks in the period around 4Q 1971 for a few months, as the newer comics came on stream.  I do remember getting vividly getting Batman #234, #235 and #236 from the same newsagents within weeks of each other at the end of 1971. Of course, this is all anecdotal at this remove.

I agree that Portsmouth probably had its own T&P rep. There were 88 newsagents in Portsmouth in 1975  (I counted them from the Phone book). Of the 88 newsagents alone in Portsmouth in the mid 70s, if we assume that each newsagent got 60 new comics each month - that would be 60x88 = around 5,000 new comics in Portsmouth each month for a population of 200,000,  of which say 2.5% were adolescent lads aged 10-14 (sorry girls). It follows that there were 5,000 lads of comic reading age in Pompey as a market for 5,000 DC comics.

[Albert Tatlock]

On 11/23/2023 at 2:04 AM, baggsey said:

Portsmouth each month for a population of 200,000

Good pub quiz question follows from this.

Which UK offshore island has the highest population?

Answer, of course leaving most baffled, is Portsea.

Must try to get out more.

[Malacoda]

On 11/23/2023 at 2:04 AM, baggsey said:

You're spot on about this being life and death for me back in those days! Probably for all of us.   It is burned into my mind that the duration between the appearance of the comics in Portsmouth and US publication was no more than two monthly issues behind from the time I started to take notice, which was certainly during the 25-cent DC period (mid 71-mid 72). I am aware that collectors of comics I know who were collecting in the late sixties believe that the gap was much wider, so perhaps improved container distribution coupled with non-return comics reduced the cycle time to the UK.

The old break bulk cargo system involved shipping cargo to a warehouse near the docks where it would await its loading date, where it might then take up to 3 weeks to load a ship, and then a similar unloading process at the other end.  Containers simply removed all of that and reduced loading to a matter of hours, so it could easily have reduced the lag from 3 months to 2.  It was probably more like 6 weeks.  

[Malacoda]

On 11/23/2023 at 2:04 AM, baggsey said:

Of course, that would mean that a glut of new comics would have occurred on UK spinner racks in the period around 4Q 1971 for a few months, as the newer comics came on stream.  I do remember getting vividly getting Batman #234, #235 and #236 from the same newsagents within weeks of each other at the end of 1971. Of course, this is all anecdotal at this remove.

DC collectors do often seem to remember this kind of bunching up. Some months when every comic that turned up had already been round before and other months where multiple new copies would turn up.  Actually, here's a verbatim quote:  "I remember that it could be a real letdown when local shops had a new delivery of American comics during a 'repeat' month. On the plus side this meant that there were other months when you could get three consecutive issues of a title released all in one go!"

As you say, it's anecdotal, but it would be a pretty weird coincidence if someone else had the exact same memory as you of it being so unusual and erratic and you were both wrong. 

[Malacoda]

On 11/23/2023 at 2:04 AM, baggsey said:

I agree that Portsmouth probably had its own T&P rep. There were 88 newsagents in Portsmouth in 1975  (I counted them from the Phone book). Of the 88 newsagents alone in Portsmouth in the mid 70s, if we assume that each newsagent got 60 new comics each month - that would be 60x88 = around 5,000 new comics in Portsmouth each month for a population of 200,000,  of which say 2.5% were adolescent lads aged 10-14 (sorry girls). It follows that there were 5,000 lads of comic reading age in Pompey as a market for 5,000 DC comics.

It's not often I get out-nerded, but I am humbled by this. "I counted them from the phone book".  Fantastic. And you still remember the number.  

[HouseofComics.Com]

On 11/24/2023 at 7:44 PM, Malacoda said:

It's not often I get out-nerded, but I am humbled by this. "I counted them from the phone book".  Fantastic. And you still remember the number.  

Agree, that was great research!

[Get Marwood & I]

Still no sign of a 10d oblong on a 42, but here's a nice gaggle of stamp-ridden Spideys courtesy of that line that's on 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 11/5/2023 at 12:16 PM, Malacoda said:

Seriously? 

 

Yup.

One for each eye 

This is more like it...

[Malacoda]

@Get Marwood & I Can't remember if you have this one, so I thought I'd moon at you to be on the safe side. 

[Malacoda]

@LowGradeBronze @themagicrobot @Albert Tatlock Lordy Mama.  So you know that diamond shaped stamp we've chatted about in the past.  This one is a cracker.  So we have a cents copy with what I assume was originally a 1/- stamp from T&P (it's from 5 months before the 5p stamps started).  Then it's been overwritten in pen with 5p, so presumably didn't sell for some time by which time people had their decimal hats on, but then it has acquired a subsequent stamp, which you'd expect to be a reduced price sale stamp, but it's one of those diamond stamps, and instead of reducing the price it substantially increases it AND puts it back into old money.  Those diamond stamps are their own little theatre of mystery and suspense.