So are we all going to pretend...

[Foolkiller]

You also talk about the issue not going away, as if we're leading up to a major shift in the hobby when dealers suspected of pressing will lose credibility, and will presumably achieve lower bids on their books. I just don't see any evidence of this. Look at the high bidders on these Batmans. Serpi certainly knows about pressing, and a few others have been buying and selling long enough that I'd be amazed if they weren't well versed as well.

 

even when I'm on vacation, this sort of thing still gets my attention. Look, yes, I'm sure Joe Serpico knows about pressing. I'm quite sure that he knows that some dealers are engaged it. Maybe it's even that it's so widespread, that it's almost a common practice in many high grade books, making it impossible really to ever change value since you'll never be able to track the formerly past pressed books, and nobody's ever going to admit that.

 

You'll never know if Jason is telling you the truth on a pressed book. You believe him, I never will trust him (until he's a bit more conclusive in resolving the whole issue regarding that whole FF 3 mess). That's the difference.

[shrunkenhead]

 

You also talk about the issue not going away, as if we're leading up to a major shift in the hobby when dealers suspected of pressing will lose credibility, and will presumably achieve lower bids on their books. I just don't see any evidence of this. Look at the high bidders on these Batmans. Serpi certainly knows about pressing, and a few others have been buying and selling long enough that I'd be amazed if they weren't well versed as well.

 

I would presume that Serpi has quite a lot of dough tied up in books, so it would certainly be in his best interests to continue forward as if pressing was no big deal. What's the alternative, dump everything next week at a loss? So I don't see this "evidence" of the same old players buying yet more HG books as being conclusive that things will remain status quo.

[nearmint]

I would presume that Serpi has quite a lot of dough tied up in books, so it would certainly be in his best interests to continue forward as if pressing was no big deal. What's the alternative, dump everything next week at a loss? So I don't see this "evidence" of the same old players buying yet more HG books as being conclusive that things will remain status quo.

 

Why would his alternative be to dump everything at a loss? The logical alternative(if he were concerned) would be to hold tight until he sees which way the wind is blowing, and temporarily stop bidding 17xguide on a non-key book. But that's not what he's doing.

 

If you're suggesting he's bidding that high on a Batman #221 just to keep up appearances, you're really s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g your logic.

[shrunkenhead]

 

If you're suggesting he's bidding that high on a Batman #221 just to keep up appearances, you're really s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g your logic.

 

I have no way of knowing if that's what's happening, and it's probably not. But in no way do I see the situation as impossible, either. We know there are plenty of folks out there who bid up books to keep things status quo (I believe this was even a thread in general not too long ago). And in the golden age market, for example, there are certain pedigrees that get habitually bid up by certain people, and I'm not talking about keep-'em-forever-collectors here. These are people with a huge stake in the multiples game...far better to bid up and buy a book for one grand than have the two hundred grand worth of books they're sitting on suddenly appear to be worth half the value. So why not the same system in the bronze market, too? Where there's money, there's going to be monkey business.

 

Like I said, though, this may very well not be the case with serpi, as I don't know the guy at all and have no wish to slander. I'm strictly speaking in broad strokes.

[nearmint]

I see zero comparison between pedigree Golden Age and a bronze age Batman that guides for $38. There are no sales of this book on GPA higher than an 8.5 copy, so there isn't a history of high prices that serpi or anyone else would need or want to prop up with an over-inflated bid.

 

The guy wants the book more than anyone else, has the $$ to back up that desire, and isn't deterred by the possibility that the book has been pressed.

[Red Hook]

BTW Jeff, regarding the odds that books for sale might be pressed, here's a quote from Steve himself made back in Nov, 2004 after his appearance on the Comic Zone. Here he's talking about pressing. Kind of sums it up for me. And you can bet that he's vastly understating the odds of high end silver age being pressed. So yeah....I assume a lot of high end SA is being flattened, and it's not stopping there.

 

This is not a "new craze". If you own pre-1978 books that you did not buy of the stands, you probably have Pressed books in your collection. If you own GA books, it is about a 95% chance some of those are pressed. A lot of dealers and collectors have been doing this for a looooong time and don't want the uninformed to know about it or there will be less money on the table for them and more for you.

 

Most people who are making money don't like other people taking it away from them.

 

Here's a link to the quote.....

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=634242&page=0&vc=1

[Red Hook]

One more thought....you think that a dealer who presses fragile GA books and already great looking SA books, is going to have more respect for Bronze Age books, and show more restraint when it comes to pressing them?

 

With all due respect, dream on.

[Rip]

BTW Jeff, regarding the odds that books for sale might be pressed, here's a quote from Steve himself made back in Nov, 2004 after his appearance on the Comic Zone. Here he's talking about pressing. Kind of sums it up for me. And you can bet that he's vastly understating the odds of high end silver age being pressed. So yeah....I assume a lot of high end SA is being flattened, and it's not stopping there.

 

This is not a "new craze". If you own pre-1978 books that you did not buy of the stands, you probably have Pressed books in your collection. If you own GA books, it is about a 95% chance some of those are pressed. A lot of dealers and collectors have been doing this for a looooong time and don't want the uninformed to know about it or there will be less money on the table for them and more for you.

 

Most people who are making money don't like other people taking it away from them.

 

Here's a link to the quote.....

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=634242&page=0&vc=1

 

So what does that mean? 1 out of fifty, a hundred? Five hundred?

Not exactly a tangible quote here.

[Red Hook]

Ask Steve.

 

I'm just interpolating from what he said.

 

I think as a buyer it's safer to overestimate than underestimate how much pressing is going on out there. At this point, with as much as we know, what would cause you to say..." OH, they wouldn't do that book!!"

 

Year and a half ago, you guys were trying to deny that pressing even existed on any quantifiable level. This story hasn't even gotten started yet. Sorry to say. LIke I said in another thread, don't blame the messenger for the message.

 

Red

[Rip]

Ask Steve.

 

I'm just interpolating from what he said.

 

I think as a buyer it's safer to overestimate than underestimate how much pressing is going on out there. At this point, with as much as we know, what would cause you to say..." OH, they wouldn't do that book!!"

 

Year and a half ago, you guys were trying to deny that pressing even existed on any quantifiable level. This story hasn't even gotten started yet. Sorry to say. LIke I said in another thread, don't blame the messenger for the message.

 

Red

 

The reason someone would say "Oh they would do that book" is simple, its because of time vs money" (I'd also add that I think many, myself included knew the Bats 221 would go for at least $600 in 9.6)

 

I honestly don't mind the idea of putting Ewert on the spot. I don't like the whole idea of pressing.

But as for simply painting yourself as the messenger....

[nearmint]

One more thought....you think that a dealer who presses fragile GA books and already great looking SA books, is going to have more respect for Bronze Age books, and show more restraint when it comes to pressing them?

 

With all due respect, dream on.

 

I never said they'd "have more respect" or "show more restraint" with BA books. I only said that it's far more likely for a BA book to exist in high grade without the need for pressing than a GA or SA book.

 

As for Steve's quote, he's talking about dealers who don't reveal which of their books have been pressed when asked. Jason has stated that he will. Whether that's always been the case, or he's turning over a new leaf, I'm inclined to take him at his word until proven otherwise.

 

Don't get me wrong, I know dealers are pressing books. I also believe that most collectors spending a lot of money on comics are aware of that fact.

 

We only disagree about how pressing will affect the marketplace down the road.

[GertHammink-migration]

red,

 

1.) What dealers do you buy from ?

 

2.) Have you ever asked them if they press comic books or not ?

 

3.) What were those other dealers responses if you did ask them ?

 

4.) Did you beleive them if they said "no" ? What made you decide to beleive them and not Ewert when Ewert has answered 3 times ?

 

5.) The guy sells bronze age books. What about other dealers that sell other higher dollar books like Pedigree, Comiclink, Metropolis ?

[JohnBull]

BTW Jeff, regarding the odds that books for sale might be pressed, here's a quote from Steve himself made back in Nov, 2004 after his appearance on the Comic Zone. Here he's talking about pressing. Kind of sums it up for me. And you can bet that he's vastly understating the odds of high end silver age being pressed. So yeah....I assume a lot of high end SA is being flattened, and it's not stopping there.

 

This is not a "new craze". If you own pre-1978 books that you did not buy of the stands, you probably have Pressed books in your collection. If you own GA books, it is about a 95% chance some of those are pressed. A lot of dealers and collectors have been doing this for a looooong time and don't want the uninformed to know about it or there will be less money on the table for them and more for you.

 

Most people who are making money don't like other people taking it away from them.

 

Here's a link to the quote.....

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=634242&page=0&vc=1

 

So if I have a GA book that was pressed a decade or more ago and looks better for it, this is bad because...?

[tth2]

So if I have a GA book that was pressed a decade or more ago and looks better for it, this is bad because...?

Gary, let`s substitute "pressed" in your question with some different words and see if you`re still as cavalier:

 

"So if I have a GA book that was trimmed a decade or more ago and looks better for it, this is bad because...?"

 

"So if I have a GA book that was color touched a decade or more ago and looks better for it, this is bad because...?"

 

The list could go on and on... The point is that the book was artificially improved from its natural state.

[BassGMan]

 

The list could go on and on... The point is that the book was artificially improved from its natural state.

 

Sorry to butt in because I don't care either way. BUT, it goes back to the age old question of if pressing is resto or not. For many, CT and trimming is resto, and pressing is not, even though pressing does improve the look of the book. I don't see them the same way either. And although I do see pressing as some very minor form of resto, I do not believe it is "resto enough" to be thrown into a purple label.

[JohnBull]

I don't want to substitute pressed.

 

Trimming is trimming. It involves removing part of the book.

 

CT is CT. It involves adding foreign material to the cover of the book.

 

Pressing a book that doesn't then go back to it's unpressed state later on isn't a problem to me. Those GA books are different stock and probably do get permanently formed into a different shape. I can understand not wanting to buy a BA book in 9.6 that's been pressed, but a GA book in mid grade pressed in the 1980's? I could care less.

 

Would you go back in time and get Edgar Church to store his books in 1 foot high piles rather than 8 foot high piles, so as to stop artificially imporving them from their natural state?

[drbanner]

The 222 should be interesting as well, is $400 for a 9.4 too high?

 

No...uh, I mean yes!!

 

Uh, maybe?

 

The bidder's list on these gems makes it pretty clear that they're not real worried about Jason's reputation...dealers, forum members, the DC Bronze BSD's, etc.,. Along with the continuing record prices the Rosa DC's are bringing, it's pretty obvious that these books are going to sell well, real well.

[tth2]

I don't want to substitute pressed.

 

Trimming is trimming. It involves removing part of the book.

 

CT is CT. It involves adding foreign material to the cover of the book.

 

Pressing a book that doesn't then go back to it's unpressed state later on isn't a problem to me. Those GA books are different stock and probably do get permanently formed into a different shape. I can understand not wanting to buy a BA book in 9.6 that's been pressed, but a GA book in mid grade pressed in the 1980's? I could care less.

 

Would you go back in time and get Edgar Church to store his books in 1 foot high piles rather than 8 foot high piles, so as to stop artificially imporving them from their natural state?

My point is that we all have thresholds as to what we consider to be acceptable alteration of a book, so to simply dismiss one form so cavalierly because it`s below your particular threshold irks me. It`s like if I said I don`t like date stamps and instead of simply responding that you don`t mind date stamps you came back and said "lots of nice books have date stamps so the problem is...?"

[tth2]

Sorry to butt in because I don't care either way. BUT, it goes back to the age old question of if pressing is resto or not.

Actually, it has nothing to do with whether something is considered resto or not. It`s similarly a personal preference, and I`m tired of that personal preference being dismissed when other personal preferences are treated with more respect here. I accept that CGC doesn`t consider pressing to be restoration. Wonderful. It still doesn`t mean I have to like it. CGC doesn`t downgrade for date stamps or miswraps, but some people still prefer a book without either of these things. I wouldn`t jump all over these people for their personal preferences, nor get on their case for caring because CGC doesn`t.

 

The difference, of course, is that people can look at a book and see a date stamp or miswrap for themselves, based upon which they can then make an informed decision whether or not to buy a book or how much they`d be willing to pay for a book with such a flaw. Those of us who don`t like pressing have no such options, and have to either hope there is a previous scan that we can compare against or rely on the word of the seller as to whether the book`s been pressed.

[Red Hook]

red,

 

1.) What dealers do you buy from? I've purchased books on ComicLink, from PedigreeComics, and from High Grade.

 

2.) Have you ever asked them if they press comic books or not ? Yes, I've asked Bob Storms directly and Doug has already stated he is not against pressing.

 

3.) What were those other dealers responses if you did ask them ? No one has said categorically that they have not had a book pressed. Diplomatic enough for you?

 

4.) Did you beleive them if they said "no"?

 

No one has said out and out "No, I don't have books pressed.".

 

What made you decide to beleive them and not Ewert when Ewert has answered 3 times ?

 

Jason has already inferred that he has had books pressed.

 

5.) The guy sells bronze age books. What about other dealers that sell other higher dollar books like Pedigree, Comiclink, Metropolis ?

 

I assume, under present conditions that just about every dealer has explored the pressing of books. Some more agressively than others. That's my opinion.

 

Having Doug or Bob Storms come on the boards and talk about this subject directly gives me assurance that if they told me a particular book had not been pressed (to their knowledge), I would choose to believe them. They're willing to come on the boards, and debate the issues. I give them full credit for that.

 

I currenly limit myself to small categories of collecting, to lessen my chances that I'm overpaying for high grade books that might have been pressed. That's all I can do right now.