RallyRd - that old idea about partial ownership of comics is a reality (updated July 21, 2021) 6 6

[Poekaymon]

1 minute ago, lou_fine said:

You as investors would most likely lose everything because aren't shareholders usually right at the bottom of the feeding list when it comes to the divvying up of assets for a bankrupt company that has closed up and gone out of business.    

Does anybody here have an idea how some of these other companies mentioned here that have done similar things with comic books have actually performed in this red hot bull comic book market which we have had the past few years?  

Yep, you certainly might lose everything.  But you probably have to agree with that possibility before you even "invest," and I'm sure they have minimum income/asset requirements to ensure it's disposable income, as does every other similar operation.  I'm not defending it as a good idea, just that it's not uncommon.  Playing blackjack in Vegas is perfectly legal and on a long enough timeline you are guaranteed to lose it all.

[telerites]

Do you get to see the book you are buying a share(s) of?

Since not all books of similar grade may command the same value unless you are buying the label not the book.  

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, blazingbob said:

Valiantman seems to be more excited to trade the shares then the underlying asset.  These shares are all tied to the asset.  For the shares to trade up or down the asset eventually has to sell.  Using the TMNT #1 9.8 as an example the asset/IPO is priced at $65K/10K shares = $65,  if one sells at auction for $75K then your shares are worth $75/1000 shares.  But the kool aid is if there are "traders" who will pay more for the shares then the underlying asset is worth.  You might as well call them options or as another posted earlier you are basically shorting of going long on the stock betting on what the asset will sell for.

 

From reading @valiantman comments, I don't believe the value is necessarily tied to the last sale for an equivalent graded copy of the same book:

20 hours ago, valiantman said:

After 90 days, the shares of an item have one day of "open trading".  Anyone holding the shares can set an ask price.  Anyone wanting the shares can set a bid price.  At the close of business (that one day), the system settles the asks and bids.  Sometimes the bids are higher than prior sales, asks are higher, and the settlement price is higher.  Sometimes, it's lower.  90 days of waiting until the next trading day.  If the other copies in the real world go up, it's likely that those with shares to sell will ask more.  If bidders want in at $75/share instead of $65/share, then it will probably settle around $75/share.  If the price falls and all bids are $45 and all asks are $65, then the settlement would be "no shares traded".  Those holding at $65/share would have to decide if they'll accept less at the next one-day trade or just hold.

 

It's really based more like a stock where valuations are determined by the bid and ask prices for an asset, but only every 90 days which means it is rather illiquid.  In this sense, it does not have to be tied to the last sale as investors tend to look for the future potential of a company going forward.  If a company or a particular book has a better potential outlook going forward, investors are usually willing to pay a lot more to own a tiny percentage share of that company.  Just take a look at all of the tech companies out there and their ridiculous valuations and why in the world would investors be willing to pay those insane types of multiples for say a Tesla or a Shopify.    

For example, take a look at Royal Bank of Canada which used to be the biggest market cap stock in Canada which earned over $3.5B CDN in its last quarter and has a total market cap of something like $133B CDN.  Now, take a look at Shopify which has overtaken it as the top company in Canada as it earned something like $263M USD in its most recent quarter, but yet has a total market cap of over $146B CDN.  Apparently, the word on the street is that it is expected to reported a loss in its upcoming quarter, but yet money keeps on flowing into it, probably similar to Tesla in the U.S.  

So, to pay a slight premium for a tiny fraction of something that we cannot afford to buy outright is certainly not a new concept and as the stock market has clearly shown us over and over again, something that we will gladly pay ridiculous premiums for if we think it has future potential value and that some other sucker will pay more for it going forward.  

Edited July 25, 2020 by lou_fine

[valiantman]

6 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

So, to pay a slight premium for a tiny fraction of something that we cannot buy outright is certainly not a new concept and as the stock market has clearly shown us over and over again, something that we will gladly pay ridiculous premiums for if we think it has future potential value and that some other sucker will pay more for it going forward.  

Yep.  When the 24/7 digital system exists, some people will day trade.  Some will try to buy on the IPO and flip as soon as it surges.  Some will hold for a year or two, or until something else catches their eye.

Personally, I want to own some percentage of Action Comics #1 for 10-to-30 years, and have that existing exchange method for my family to immediately liquidate my shares in a digital exchange as easily as selling shares in IBM when the time comes.

As it stands, my family will be stuck with 1,000+ slabs, a physical nightmare in itself, and a significant commission for whomever they pick to help them.  I'd rather they just had $200,000 in Action Comics #1 equity, but I've never spent more than $10,000 at a time... much less $500,000+.  I can't buy into Action Comics #1 for them... yet.

This system will exist someday.  Someone will do it right.  Maybe not RallyRd, but someone.

Edited July 25, 2020 by valiantman

[valiantman]

12 minutes ago, WayDownLow said:

2 hours ago, valiantman said:

No, your examples are buying from established businesses who advertised

Not in the CBG. Anyone could run an ad, you didn't need to be a dealer. There were no pictures and you had to send in the money first and then pray.

CBG never approached the valuation of Ebay.  Small ideas don't become big ideas until there's a big idea based on the smaller one.

[Gatsby77]

Here's another way I'd go about basically the same thing.

Engage a known/trusted dealer (say...@G.A.tor) to establish a private equity fund for comic books.

500 people pledge $1,000 each into a closed fund worth $500,000 and a mandatory five-year term.

Gator charges a typical 2% annual management fee of funds invested, and takes say, a 10% cut of final sale/profits off the top.

But we trust him to buy investment-grade books at the $30,000 - $100,000 level, in which we have shares of ownership. Then, we trust him to sell said books 34-48 months later, kicking us back our proportional share of the profits, net of fees.

This does two things:

1) $1,000 is committed capital, but not paid up front. Shareholders vote on prospective purchases and only send in the % of their $1,000 commitment when needed. So if he's buying a $50,000 book, each shareholder would be obligated to wire $100 within 72 hours.

2) I'd trust a dealer like him to know the market well enough to spot trends and under-priced keys likely to mature on a 3-5 year timeline, and/or to have the connections to occasionally target a book that goes far less than it should (say,buying a Cap # 3 at $24k, not $30k, or $32k).

[valiantman]

15 minutes ago, telerites said:

Do you get to see the book you are buying a share(s) of?

Since not all books of similar grade may command the same value unless you are buying the label not the book.  

Yes, there are 1,000 shares of this... registered as an LLC where this is the only asset in the company.

[lou_fine]

3 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Yes, there are 1,000 shares of this... registered as an LLC where this is the only asset in the company.

Well, it's certainly not the CC copy that sold last year for $30,500 then.

Any idea where this copy was obtained and at what price point?  

[valiantman]

14 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Here's another way I'd go about basically the same thing.

Engage a known/trusted dealer (say...@G.A.tor) to establish a private equity fund for comic books.

500 people pledge $1,000 each into a closed fund worth $500,000 and a mandatory five-year term.

Gator charges a typical 2% annual management fee of funds invested, and takes say, a 10% cut of final sale/profits off the top.

But we trust him to buy investment-grade books at the $30,000 - $100,000 level, in which we have shares of ownership. Then, we trust him to sell said books 34-48 months later, kicking us back our proportional share of the profits, net of fees.

This does two things:

1) $1,000 is committed capital, but not paid up front. Shareholders vote on prospective purchases and only send in the % of their $1,000 commitment when needed. So if he's buying a $50,000 book, each shareholder would be obligated to wire $100 within 72 hours.

2) I'd trust a dealer like him to know the market well enough to spot trends and under-priced keys likely to mature on a 3-5 year timeline, and/or to have the connections to occasionally target a book that goes far less than it should (say,buying a Cap # 3 at $24k, not $30k, or $32k).

That's a completely different model.  Valid, but not the same as...

"I currently have $100 and I'd like to put it into stocks, savings, cryptocurrency, or a particular key comic book (collectible) of my choosing, and sell my shares whenever I feel like it."  <---- That's the system that will work, when it has the right backing, structure, and confidence.  Someone will do it.  Maybe not RallyRd, but someone.  It will have Mickey Mantle rookie cards.  It will have first edition classic novels.  It will have everything collectible that's priced out of the common market.  "Common people" have more collectibles money than "money people" for collectibles.

Edited July 25, 2020 by valiantman

[valiantman]

11 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Well, it's certainly not the CC copy that sold last year for $30,500 then.

Any idea where this copy was obtained and at what price point?  

Yep, it's filed with the SEC.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1768126/000176812620000004/rseaex6z54.htm

[Gatsby77]

5 minutes ago, valiantman said:

That's a completely different model.  Valid, but not the same as...

"I currently have $100 and I'd like to put it into stocks, savings, cryptocurrency, or comic books, and sell my shares whenever I feel like it."  <---- That's the system that will work, when it has the right backing, structure, and confidence.  Someone will do it.  Maybe not RallyRd, but someone.  It will have Mickey Mantle rookie cards.  It will have first edition classic novels.  It will have everything collectible that's priced out of the common market.  "Common people" have more collectibles money than "money people" for collectibles.

I get it. It's an ETF for collectibles.

And it could work - but not *this* model.

Especially when you're

a) automatically over-paying by 20% off the top and

b) far from being able to buy and sell shares every business day, you're locked in but for a small window once per quarter.

Also, don't be so naive to think they're aren't private cartels doing this already - they're just doing in privately, in ways not accessible to the middle class.

Same thing with sports teams - most are now owned by groups of 10-15 owners, who each put up different percentages of the purchase price.

The analogy here would be  let's raise a funding round for common folks who each chip in $1,000 so we could collectively buy the Colorado Rockies!

[lou_fine]

11 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

16 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Yes, there are 1,000 shares of this... registered as an LLC where this is the only asset in the company.

Well, it's certainly not the CC copy that sold last year for $30,500 then.

Any idea where this copy was obtained and at what price point?  

 

Looks like this is the copy that was auctioned off on CC for $15,900 way back in june of 2015:

https://www.comicconnect.com/item/613140?tzf=1

So, unless they've been holding it all this time, I assume they must have picked it up more recently (CL possibly??) at a substantially higher price point.  

[valiantman]

7 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

I get it. It's an ETF for collectibles.

And it could work - but not *this* model.

Especially when you're

a) automatically over-paying by 20% off the top and

b) far from being able to buy and sell shares every business day, you're locked in but for a small window once per quarter.

Also, don't be so naive to think they're aren't private cartels doing this already - they're just doing in privately, in ways not accessible to the middle class.

Same thing with sports teams - most are now owned by groups of 10-15 owners, who each put up different percentages of the purchase price.

The analogy here would be  let's raise a funding round for common folks who each chip in $1,000 so we could collectively buy the Colorado Rockies!

Sure - it could be any real world asset.  I'm talking about comic books because we're on the CGC board... but I'm talking about the biggest comics, the ones people can't afford.  RallyRd is lacking the daily exchange, and the pricing will solve itself at some point.  IPO too high and people won't buy in.  However, the 20% "off-the-top" might be a reasonable markup to participate in the system.  What's the markup on a trip to Disney World?  They offer you a memory for $100/ticket/day, but they don't care if you, specifically, go or not.  Only that enough people are willing to go at that price point, because that particular "thrill" has zero resale value.

Edited July 25, 2020 by valiantman

[Gatsby77]

4 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Yep, it's filed with the SEC.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1768126/000176812620000004/rseaex6z54.htm

Fascinating.

So they bought it for $35,000 from Metro/ComicConnect, and immediately sold it for $37,000.

But...only put down $7,100.

So when did the IPO occur? Presumably within the 7-day period before they owed Vincent the balance?

[valiantman]

3 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

17 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

22 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Yes, there are 1,000 shares of this... registered as an LLC where this is the only asset in the company.

Well, it's certainly not the CC copy that sold last year for $30,500 then.

Any idea where this copy was obtained and at what price point?  

 

Looks like this is the copy that was auctioned off on CC for $15,900 way back in june of 2015:

https://www.comicconnect.com/item/613140?tzf=1

So, unless they've been holding it all this time, I assume they must have picked it up more recently (CL possibly??) at a substantially higher price point.  

(Reposting, in case someone misses the answer:)

Yep, it's filed with the SEC.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1768126/000176812620000004/rseaex6z54.htm

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, Gatsby77 said:

Fascinating.

So they bought it for $35,000 from Metro/ComicConnect, and immediately sold it for $37,000.

But...only put down $7,100.

So when did the IPO occur? Presumably within the 7-day period before they owed Vincent the balance?

IPO was yesterday (starting this discussion).  They put down $7,100 on May 15th, and they can IPO whenever (yesterday).  It was fully-funded in about 3 minutes at $37K (1,000 shares at $37).

[lou_fine]

11 minutes ago, valiantman said:

23 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Well, it's certainly not the CC copy that sold last year for $30,500 then.

Any idea where this copy was obtained and at what price point?  

Yep, it's filed with the SEC.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1768126/000176812620000004/rseaex6z54.htm

Is this a Metro or CC related thing since Vinnie's name is at the bottom, or just a coincidence with the boys at RallyRd simply picking their books up from CC/Metro since they appear to be the source for both the TMNT 1 and the Cap 3 so far?  

Am I reading this correctly in that they had to pay $35,500 for this copy of Cap 3 and have sold 1,000 shares of it with a total value of only $37,000.  Sounds like pretty much of a losing proposition to me for the boys from RallyRd unless they have something else going on behind the scenes or if this is being done as a loss leader.  

Any links so far as to where some of the other books have been sourced from?  

Edited July 25, 2020 by lou_fine

[Gatsby77]

I misread the filing.

They bought it from Vincent on March 16, securing it with only a $7,100 deposit...with the balance of $28,400 due within a week of the "IPO" on May 15.

Clever.

And...I haven't quite wrapped my mind around it yet, but seems like a good avenue for money laundering too.

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, lou_fine said:

Any links so far as to where some of the other books have been sourced from?  

Yep... also on the SEC site: 

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1768126/000176812620000004/0001768126-20-000004-index.htm

#SUPER21 is the CGC 9.0 Superman #21  (also Zurzolo)

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1768126/000176812620000004/rseaex6z55.htm

They bought the PSA 10 Michael Jordan 1986 Fleer from Ken Goldin.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1768126/000176812620000004/rseaex6z46.htm

 

[valiantman]

Several books came from Zurzolo.

Other books (including a CGC 4.5 Amazing Fantasy #15 they haven't announced yet) came from Ken Goldin:

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1768126/000176812620000002/0001768126-20-000002-index.htm