RallyRd - that old idea about partial ownership of comics is a reality (updated July 21, 2021) 6 6

[valiantman]

CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 was purchased from Zurzolo for $59,000:

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1768126/000176812620000013/rseaex6z67.htm

[lou_fine]

3 minutes ago, valiantman said:

CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 was purchased from Zurzolo for $59,000:

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1768126/000176812620000013/rseaex6z67.htm

Well, let's hope Vinnie wasn't the purchaser who had paid $90K for this copy from HA back in the summer of 2019?  

[valiantman]

Just now, lou_fine said:

4 minutes ago, valiantman said:

CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 was purchased from Zurzolo for $59,000:

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1768126/000176812620000013/rseaex6z67.htm

Well, let's hope Vinnie wasn't the purchaser who had paid $90K for this copy from HA back in the summer of 2019?  

Sales had been $40K before that $90K sale.  If the $90K never actually happened (or was an internal Heritage purchase - without all the commissions (35% total?), then the price was closer to $59K)... and the market is now $50K-$60K instead of $40K.  If it was a scheme to move prices to $50K to $60K, it worked.

[Gatsby77]

8 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Sales had been $40K before that $90K sale.  If the $90K never actually happened (or was an internal Heritage purchase - without all the commissions (35% total?), then the price was closer to $59K)... and the market is now $50K-$60K instead of $40K.  If it was a scheme to move prices to $50K to $60K, it worked.

?

Heritage commissions are 35% now?

Last I checked they were ~half that.

[valiantman]

8 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

17 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Sales had been $40K before that $90K sale.  If the $90K never actually happened (or was an internal Heritage purchase - without all the commissions (35% total?), then the price was closer to $59K)... and the market is now $50K-$60K instead of $40K.  If it was a scheme to move prices to $50K to $60K, it worked.

?

Heritage commissions are 35% now?

Last I checked they were ~half that.

If there's a buyer AND a seller premium, what % do they keep of money received?

[DJones]

19 hours ago, catman76 said:

First it was encasing comics in plastic and never opening them, reading them or actually touching them ever and now you can buy comics you will never even have in your possession or ever even see in person. Insanity.

[Murphman13]

Didn't a 9.8 turtles 1 close on CLink last summer for a little over 90k?

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, Murphman13 said:

Didn't a 9.8 turtles 1 close on CLink last summer for a little over 90k?

Not aware of any CGC 9.8 TMNT 1 that sold on CL last summer for over $90K, as I believe you are probably referring to the outlier of a $90K auction result that took place at HA in the summer of 2019.  

As I have stated above, this $90K HA copy is the $59K copy that CC ended up selling to RallyRd for this $65K investment scheme.  

[lou_fine]

4 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

4 hours ago, valiantman said:

Sales had been $40K before that $90K sale.  If the $90K never actually happened (or was an internal Heritage purchase - without all the commissions (35% total?), then the price was closer to $59K)... and the market is now $50K-$60K instead of $40K.  If it was a scheme to move prices to $50K to $60K, it worked.

?

Heritage commissions are 35% now?

Last I checked they were ~half that.

It's not actually 35% total without any discounts as I believe @valiantman was simply adding together the 20% BP on the hammer price and the 15% SP on the hammer price for a simplified, but incorrect total of 35%.  

If we assume no special negotiating discounts even with the standard 20% BP and 15% SP, it still works out to less than 35%.  For example, if a book hammers for $1,000 the 20% standard BP works out to $200 while the 15% standard SP works out to $150.  This means that the consignor would then receive only $850 (once again assuming no negotiations done) out of the $1,200 total sale for a total commision fee paid out of 29.17%.   

[lou_fine]

5 hours ago, valiantman said:

IPO was yesterday (starting this discussion).  They put down $7,100 on May 15th, and they can IPO whenever (yesterday).  It was fully-funded in about 3 minutes at $37K (1,000 shares at $37).

 

5 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

I misread the filing.

They bought it from Vincent on March 16, securing it with only a $7,100 deposit...with the balance of $28,400 due within a week of the "IPO" on May 15.

Clever.

And...I haven't quite wrapped my mind around it yet, but seems like a good avenue for money laundering too.

Yes, it would appear that the balance of $28,400 would have had to be paid back on May 15th, as this balance was due on the EARLIER of 7 days after the IPO or on May 15th.  So, they would have had to pay the full amount of $35,500 to Vinnie on May 15th or more than 2 months prior to the IPO coming out yesterday.  

So, my question is if they managed to raise only $37,000 from this IPO, how are the boys at RallyRd going to be able to make much money on this, if any in fact, if the remaining $1,500 premium is expected to pay for all of the ancillary storage costs, insurance fees, and administration fees such as registration and lawyer fees?    

[valiantman]

5 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

It's not actually 35% total without any discounts as I believe @valiantman was simply adding together the 20% BP on the hammer price and the 15% SP on the hammer price for a simplified, but incorrect total of 35%.  

If we assume no special negotiating discounts even with the standard 20% BP and 15% SP, it still works out to less than 35%.  For example, if a book hammers for $1,000 the 20% standard BP works out to $200 while the 15% standard SP works out to $150.  This means that the consignor would then receive only $850 (once again assuming no negotiations done) out of the $1,200 total sale for a total commision fee paid out of 29.17%.   

That's correct - I was doing 20% + 15%, but it's actually 29.17% (different denominators) of every sale that Heritage keeps for themselves.  I don't know how that's acceptible, but a 20% premium to own part of a comic you'd never otherwise afford is outrageous.  It's just math.

4 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

 

Yes, it would appear that the balance of $28,400 would have had to be paid back on May 15th, as this balance was due on the EARLIER of 7 days after the IPO or on May 15th.  So, they would have had to pay the full amount of $35,500 to Vinnie on May 15th or more than 2 months prior to the IPO coming out yesterday.  

So, my question is if they managed to raise only $37,000 from this IPO, how are the boys at RallyRd going to be able to make much money on this, if any in fact, if the remaining $1,500 premium is expected to pay for all of the ancillary storage costs, insurance fees, and administration fees such as registration and lawyer fees?    

The real system (whomever builds it, RallyRd or otherwise) would have a small transaction fee associated with 24/7 trading, and the owner of an exchange makes more money than anyone else just by owning the exchange.  If they need to build up enough assets first, this is one way to do it.  Have a large variety of types of investments, get people comfortable with portfolio holdings, shares, no fees, and then when you roll out the 24/7 exchange, you take 0.1% or something from buyer and seller in every trade.  I'd happily take 0.2% of the daily volume of dollars traded from ANY system, and I wouldn't care what was being traded as long as it was traded often.   I don't know if that's RallyRd's plan, but someone will build it.  Someday.

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

[valiantman]

26 minutes ago, valiantman said:

57 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

It's not actually 35% total without any discounts as I believe @valiantman was simply adding together the 20% BP on the hammer price and the 15% SP on the hammer price for a simplified, but incorrect total of 35%.  

If we assume no special negotiating discounts even with the standard 20% BP and 15% SP, it still works out to less than 35%.  For example, if a book hammers for $1,000 the 20% standard BP works out to $200 while the 15% standard SP works out to $150.  This means that the consignor would then receive only $850 (once again assuming no negotiations done) out of the $1,200 total sale for a total commision fee paid out of 29.17%.   

That's correct - I was doing 20% + 15%, but it's actually 29.17% (different denominators) of every sale that Heritage keeps for themselves.  I don't know how that's acceptible, but a 20% premium to own part of a comic you'd never otherwise afford is outrageous.  It's just math.

I want to go back to this just to make sure everyone understands.  We don't talk about this much around here.

Buyers on Heritage are aware there's a buyer's premium... and it is priced INTO the bids.  If I will pay $1,200 for a comic book, then I bid $1,000 on Heritage because it's actually $1,200 with the buyer's premium.  I don't think anyone bids $1,200 and pretends they didn't pay $1,440 for the comic when they have to pay $1,440 to get it.  So, the price of the comic is $1,200 when I bid $1,000.  That's a given.

However...

The seller of the comic receives $850.  The "bid" is $1,000 (before buyer's premium) and the seller pays 15% to Heritage for handling the sale.

Now, take Heritage out of the picture for just a minute.

The buyer pays $1,200 for the comic.  The seller receives $850.

What is the ACTUAL seller's fee?  That's right, it's 29.17%.

What is the ACTUAL buyer's premium?  That's right.  It's zero.  If the buyer already prices in the buyer's premium of 20% and only wanted to pay $1,200 for the book, they only pay $1,200 and there's no buyer premium.

 

Long story short... YOU own a $1,200 comic book and Heritage receives $1,200 to sell it for you.  You receive $850.  Heritage keeps 29.17%.

Every. Single. Time.

Now... did you realize that?  Because I don't see that 29.17% for Heritage, 70.83% for YOU mentioned very often.

[lou_fine]

5 minutes ago, valiantman said:

What is the ACTUAL buyer's premium?  That's right.  It's zero.  If the buyer already prices in the buyer's premium of 20% and only wanted to pay $1,200 for the book, they only pay $1,200 and there's no buyer premium.

Exactly right as the consignor is always paying the FULL LOAD when it comes to the auction house consignment fees.  

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by lou_fine

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, lou_fine said:

6 minutes ago, valiantman said:

What is the ACTUAL buyer's premium?  That's right.  It's zero.  If the buyer already prices in the buyer's premium of 20% and only wanted to pay $1,200 for the book, they only pay $1,200 and there's no buyer premium.

Exactly right as the consignor is paying the FULL LOAD when it comes to the auction house consignment fees.  

Maybe I've missed it - but if I was one of the dealers around here who offers 10% fees on comic book consignments, I'd have "HERITAGE WILL TAKE 29% OF YOUR MONEY - BUT I ONLY TAKE 10%" in large bold letters on my website.  Like I said, maybe I've missed it.

Edited July 26, 2020 by valiantman

[UncleBEN]

6 hours ago, valiantman said:

That's a completely different model.  Valid, but not the same as...

"I currently have $100 and I'd like to put it into stocks, savings, cryptocurrency, or a particular key comic book (collectible) of my choosing, and sell my shares whenever I feel like it."  <---- That's the system that will work, when it has the right backing, structure, and confidence.  Someone will do it.  Maybe not RallyRd, but someone.  It will have Mickey Mantle rookie cards.  It will have first edition classic novels.  It will have everything collectible that's priced out of the common market.  "Common people" have more collectibles money than "money people" for collectibles.

 

https://www.beckett.com/news/lebron-james-2003-04-exquisite-rookie-patch-autograph-sells-record-1-8-million/

 

This LeBron James card just sold at @GoldinAuctions for $1.8 million, the record for a modern day card. Winner is @LeoreAvidar, who says purchase is part of strategy to “bring something big to the collectibles and alternative asset business in the coming months.”

 

[valiantman]

Just now, UncleBEN said:

 

https://www.beckett.com/news/lebron-james-2003-04-exquisite-rookie-patch-autograph-sells-record-1-8-million/

 

This LeBron James card just sold at @GoldinAuctions for $1.8 million, the record for a modern day card. Winner is @LeoreAvidar, who says purchase is part of strategy to “bring something big to the collectibles and alternative asset business in the coming months.”

 

24/7 trading of real world items in shares is inevitable.  "Inevitable!" I say. 

[Hollywood1892]

3 minutes ago, UncleBEN said:

 

https://www.beckett.com/news/lebron-james-2003-04-exquisite-rookie-patch-autograph-sells-record-1-8-million/

 

This LeBron James card just sold at @GoldinAuctions for $1.8 million, the record for a modern day card. Winner is @LeoreAvidar, who says purchase is part of strategy to “bring something big to the collectibles and alternative asset business in the coming months.”

 

Makes sense

Now when I talk to my wife about a 60k AF 15 I will use "I'd like for us to invest 60k into alternative assets" after which she will apply coercive diplomacy and enhanced interrogation to get me to retract and we will find ourselves in an entanglement if I acquiesce

[Hollywood1892]

4 minutes ago, valiantman said:

24/7 trading of real world items in shares is inevitable.  "Inevitable!" I say. 

No doubt it will be inevitable the question is "will it be lucrative?"

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, Hollywood1892 said:

6 minutes ago, valiantman said:

24/7 trading of real world items in shares is inevitable.  "Inevitable!" I say. 

No doubt it will be inevitable the question is "will it be lucrative?"