Why hasnt this book found a home yet?

[shadroch]

hey,Pov

 

Thanks,but when I said "improvement",I was referring to cosmetic brightening of the pages,from cream to off-white or better.

[FFB]

This is something I've wondered about. Can pages be "improved upon" without disassembling the book,and how would CGC treat such a book,assuming they caught it?

 

You have to disassemble the book in order to bleach the pages.

 

You can add strength to the pages by resizing them after an aqueous wash/bleaching/neutralization wash, but the cellulose chains will still be shorter so you're really substituting one form of strength for another. Basically what will happen is that the sizing will provide additional support that the previously longer cellulose chains once provided. Mark Wilson confirmed to me in an email recently that you can add strength to paper by using this technique. Tracey Heft confirmed for me a while ago that you can even restore some flexibility to brittle pages through bleaching.

[FFB]

hey,Pov

 

Thanks,but when I said "improvement",I was referring to cosmetic brightening of the pages,from cream to off-white or better.

 

If you got a book wet without disassembling it, the pages would stick together and the whole thing would be a mess when you were done. It would probably not dry out properly and the staples would almost certainly rust very quickly. The cover and interior pages would almost certainly tear at the staples from manipulating the book because wet pulp paper is very weak.

[benz]

if i have a golden age book with "light tan to off white" page, does it mean the page quality would worsen over time in a CGC case than a " off white" copy which had been cleaned?

 

 

You have to disassemble the book in order to bleach the pages.

 

You can add strength to the pages by resizing them after an aqueous wash/bleaching/neutralization wash, but the cellulose chains will still be shorter so you're really substituting one form of strength for another. Basically what will happen is that the sizing will provide additional support that the previously longer cellulose chains once provided. Mark Wilson confirmed to me in an email recently that you can add strength to paper by using this technique. Tracey Heft confirmed for me a while ago that you can even restore some flexibility to brittle pages through bleaching.

[PovertyRow]

This is something I've wondered about. Can pages be "improved upon" without disassembling the book,and how would CGC treat such a book,assuming they caught it?

 

You have to disassemble the book in order to bleach the pages.

 

You can add strength to the pages by resizing them after an aqueous wash/bleaching/neutralization wash, but the cellulose chains will still be shorter so you're really substituting one form of strength for another. Basically what will happen is that the sizing will provide additional support that the previously longer cellulose chains once provided. Mark Wilson confirmed to me in an email recently that you can add strength to paper by using this technique. Tracey Heft confirmed for me a while ago that you can even restore some flexibility to brittle pages through bleaching.

 

You can add strength to paper by laminating it as well, which has actually been used in dire emergencies on some documents. But sizing to strengthen paper? I don't see it impacting the cellulose fibers, rebuidling the fibers or strengthening the fibers in any way. I would be curious to know what kind of strength Mark is referring to. Especially since we can only do surface sizing. Is it a strengthened support bed or truly strengthened paper? The only method I am familiar with for actually strengthening the cellulose fibers themself is through methyl cellulose "injected" in a vacuum environment followed by freeze-drying of the paper. The end result, though, is paper approximately 25% thicker, and moderate strengthening.

 

I have to wonder if there are any negative impacts to restoring some flexibility to brittle paper through bleaching. How long such flexibility would remain, and if ultimately there would be more serious consequences to the paper as time went by (regardless of the bleached paper being brittle or not brittle).

[lou_fine]

is it the cream pages?

the price?

the market?

the pressing-induced buying malaise?

the economy??

 

All of the above PLUS the fact that the Avengers is considered to be basically a 2nd tier Marvel book. Any one of the above reasons alone would be enough to keep it out of the $35K range.

 

You can also add in the fact that there are already 7 graded copies in equal or higher condition than this one, with quite a few more that could be resubmitted or possibly "improved upon" to achieve the equivalent grade. That's a awful high number of copies to have kicking around for someone to spend $35K, especially when Overstreet only has it listed at $5,400 in top of guide.

[sfilosa]

You can also add in the fact that there are already 7 graded copies in equal or higher condition than this one, with quite a few more that could be resubmitted or possibly "improved upon" to achieve the equivalent grade. That's a awful high number of copies to have kicking around for someone to spend $35K, especially when Overstreet only has it listed at $5,400 in top of guide.

 

There are enough Avenger Collectors for the amount of copies graded of this book.

 

But the PRICE is WAY ABOVE any comparable sales. A CGC 9.2 just sold this year for $9,500. So that puts this book at around the $19-25K range at most and the Cr/Ow pages would clearly put it closer to the low end of the range.

[burntboy]

You can also add in the fact that there are already 7 graded copies in equal or higher condition than this one, with quite a few more that could be resubmitted or possibly "improved upon" to achieve the equivalent grade. That's a awful high number of copies to have kicking around for someone to spend $35K, especially when Overstreet only has it listed at $5,400 in top of guide.

 

There are enough Avenger Collectors for the amount of copies graded of this book.

 

But the PRICE is WAY ABOVE any comparable sales. A CGC 9.2 just sold this year for $9,500. So that puts this book at around the $19-25K range at most and the Cr/Ow pages would clearly put it closer to the low end of the range.

 

don't disagree with your comments, but one sale does not necessarily define FMV........still, $35K seems like an awful lot of dough for a book that isn't all that rare......

 

for example, my FF#11 sold for $10,000 (thought by many to be outrageously high) 15 months ago and was just resold for $14,000.............so nothing would surprise me..............

[sfilosa]

don't disagree with your comments, but one sale does not necessarily define FMV........still, $35K seems like an awful lot of dough for a book that isn't all that rare......

 

$35K is far and above any recorded sale.

 

Heritage sold a CGC 9.4 several years ago for $17K.

[lou_fine]

You can also add in the fact that there are already 7 graded copies in equal or higher condition than this one, with quite a few more that could be resubmitted or possibly "improved upon" to achieve the equivalent grade. That's a awful high number of copies to have kicking around for someone to spend $35K, especially when Overstreet only has it listed at $5,400 in top of guide.

 

There are enough Avenger Collectors for the amount of copies graded of this book.

 

Yes, without a doubt there are more than 7 high grade collectors of Avengers books, BUT only at a price within reason.

 

Common sense dictates that there is an inverse relationship between the price of a book and the number of collectors. Unfortunately for the Avengers #1, at a price of $35K, the number of collectors has probably reached zero at this particular point in time.

[namisgr]

There are enough Avenger Collectors for the amount of copies graded of this book.

 

Yes, without a doubt there are more than 7 high grade collectors of Avengers books, BUT only at a price within reason.

 

Common sense dictates that there is an inverse relationship between the price of a book and the number of collectors. Unfortunately for the Avengers #1, at a price of $35K, the number of collectors has probably reached zero at this particular point in time.

 

I don't think there IS a vast pool of ultra-high grade collectors of the earliest and most expensive Marvel keys. This is what cracks me up about the focus on GPA. I'm not knocking the product, since it certainly has value, but rather the treatment of the data by some as though it were a stock ticker. Comics like the one in question have a VERY small number of potential buyers. Couple the fact that no one may be looking for this book in 9.4 at present even for half the asking price with the inferior page quality, and you've got a book that likely will go unsold for a long time.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Comics like the one in question have a VERY small number of potential buyers.

 

Not true, I'd love to have it...so would most of us....just not at anywhere near its current price.

 

Couple the fact that no one may be looking for this book in 9.4 at present even for half the asking price with the inferior page quality, and you've got a book that likely will go unsold for a long time.

 

Now this I can agree with. I think this book is a perfect example of "High Grade Musical Chairs"...books get sold, resold, traded, sold again, (almost always at a higher price), until finally, the last owner tries to sell it and finds no takers.

 

I think you might see a lot more of this over the next couple of years.

[tth2]

This is what cracks me up about the focus on GPA. I'm not knocking the product, since it certainly has value, but rather the treatment of the data by some as though it were a stock ticker. Comics like the one in question have a VERY small number of potential buyers.

Great point, Bob, and I've been similarly amused. GPA is clearly most useful for books for which there are a large number of transactions, because then the reported transactions are plentiful enough to give you a sense as to where the true average lies and where the overly high and overly low deviations are. For less transacted books, or less transacted grades of a certain book, I don't know what one can determine from a single reported transaction, or a very small number of transactions, other than that someone somewhere was once willing to pay that price for the book.

[sfilosa]

Great point, Bob, and I've been similarly amused. GPA is clearly most useful for books for which there are a large number of transactions, because then the reported transactions are plentiful enough to give you a sense as to where the true average lies and where the overly high and overly low deviations are. For less transacted books, or less transacted grades of a certain book, I don't know what one can determine from a single reported transaction, or a very small number of transactions, other than that someone somewhere was once willing to pay that price for the book.

 

The thing that one must remember is that MARKET VALUE is still based on COMPARABLE SALES. Now when I use the term comparable, I am not necessarily speaking of that exact issue in that exact grade. Obviously, the same book in other grades gives a potential value to a book. But other books that are simaliar in nature also are used.

 

What I'm saying is that know matter how badly a person wants a book, they are only going to pay a certain amount. That amount might be seriously higher than what other people would pay (I would say Doug Schmell will pay top, top dollar for the highest graded copy of a book for his collection), but it will still have a limit based on the Market Value of other books.

 

Most issue #2's of a title, won't sell for more than #1, even if issue #2 is much harder to find. Human nature will stop someone from paying more, because they perceive that issue #1 HAS TO BE WORTH MORE.

[esquirecomics]

Price is way too high in my opinion. And I do believe the Cream to Off-White pages make a huge difference. If someone is willing to spend $15-20K on a book (IMO what I think it's worth), they would rather spend a few grand more and get at least Off-White pages, so when it comes time to sell there are no Negatives (i.e. lesser page quality).

 

I agree 100%.

[Aman619]

Price is way too high in my opinion. And I do believe the Cream to Off-White pages make a huge difference. If someone is willing to spend $15-20K on a book (IMO what I think it's worth), they would rather spend a few grand more and get at least Off-White pages, so when it comes time to sell there are no Negatives (i.e. lesser page quality).

 

I agree 100%.

 

me too.

 

IMO its the cream pages plus the price first as to why there are no nibbles. Corerct price for an OW or a W copy would be more like 25K not 35K. But for cream? Certainly a lot less. AND - - the current state of th emarket eliminates any stretch buyers, that is, all those for whom 25-35K is a big gut and budget wrenching stretch to pull off. The BSD cash-only guys will have passes due to the price and cream pages.

 

 

IMO, the seller either is okay with not unloading it, or will lower it a lot soon to move the book. Probably the former though.

[PovertyRow]

This is something I've wondered about. Can pages be "improved upon" without disassembling the book,and how would CGC treat such a book,assuming they caught it?

 

You have to disassemble the book in order to bleach the pages.

 

You can add strength to the pages by resizing them after an aqueous wash/bleaching/neutralization wash, but the cellulose chains will still be shorter so you're really substituting one form of strength for another. Basically what will happen is that the sizing will provide additional support that the previously longer cellulose chains once provided. Mark Wilson confirmed to me in an email recently that you can add strength to paper by using this technique. Tracey Heft confirmed for me a while ago that you can even restore some flexibility to brittle pages through bleaching.

 

You can add strength to paper by laminating it as well, which has actually been used in dire emergencies on some documents. But sizing to strengthen paper? I don't see it impacting the cellulose fibers, rebuidling the fibers or strengthening the fibers in any way. I would be curious to know what kind of strength Mark is referring to. Especially since we can only do surface sizing. Is it a strengthened support bed or truly strengthened paper? The only method I am familiar with for actually strengthening the cellulose fibers themself is through methyl cellulose "injected" in a vacuum environment followed by freeze-drying of the paper. The end result, though, is paper approximately 25% thicker, and moderate strengthening.

 

I have to wonder if there are any negative impacts to restoring some flexibility to brittle paper through bleaching. How long such flexibility would remain, and if ultimately there would be more serious consequences to the paper as time went by (regardless of the bleached paper being brittle or not brittle).

 

We got any feedback yet?