Why is a Blue label better than a Purple?

[THE_BEYONDER]

As the line between what is & isn't resto continues to blur...and detection becomes more & more difficult...it's only natural that all books get the same color label. Isn't it?

 

no.

 

the line isn't blurring between a virgin book and a restored or otherwise changed book

 

True. But what correlation is there between Virgin books & Blue label slabs?

[Sal]

As the line between what is & isn't resto continues to blur...and detection becomes more & more difficult...it's only natural that all books get the same color label. Isn't it?

 

no.

 

the line isn't blurring between a virgin book and a restored or otherwise changed book

 

True. But what correlation is there between Virgin books & Blue label slabs?

 

not exactly sure. i am sure that whatever correlation there is, it's a heck of a lot closer than that between Virgin books and purple slabs.

 

i suppose i should have put "virgin" in quotes.

[FFB]

People have been buying raw restored books with appropriate disclosure for decades. They still buy books like this to this day from reputable dealers who disclose the extent of the restoration.

 

The purple label is a recent creation. It is not a long-standing tradition in the hobby, nor is its use essential to communicate to a buyer that a book is restored. I will grant you that it has caught on fast and I am not arguing that it hasn't received widespread acceptance in the hobby -- clearly it has. My only point is that the purple label is not a necessity, and people still sell restored books with appropriate disclosure to this day without the use of a purple label, with no problems whatsoever.

 

My problem with the different color is that on a purple label, you have disclosure of the restoration that was found on the book, but you also have the different color giving potential buyers the feeling that the grading service thought that there was something "wrong" with the restored book. It is not up to CGC to make value judgments about books. It is their job to certify, grade, and give appropriate notations of restoration found on a book. All the purple label does is add stigma where there doesn't need to be any.

 

There's nothing wrong with restored books. They're just cheaper than unrestored books and can be an affordable way for people to put together nice looking runs of books that they otherwise couldn't afford. There's no reason to stigmatize those books with a special color label. Just disclose the restoration in a clear way so that a seller can't sell the book as unrestored.

 

As for prices rising on restored books, I don't think that will happen at all except maybe for those few GA keys like the Church books that have a dot of color touch (and those are pretty expensive already). This isn't about trying to raise the prices on restored books. It's about removing a purple label "scarlet letter" stigma that never should have been there in the first place.

 

So having read your post, I'm not sure why you are in favor of keeping the purple label? All I see is you shooting down the arguments put forth in favor of ditching the purple label. I agree that some of your counterarguments are very valid, but what are your arguments in favor of keeping it in the first place?

 

for the very same reasons given above. i don't think there's any stigma inherent in any book, regardless of label colour. there's no stigma attached by the seller, either, unless they enjoy selling at a loss.

 

the stigma is given to the book by the buyer. for people with an aversion to restored books, this stigma is going to be attached regardless of anything CGC sticks on the label. blue label, tons of information, two grades? so what. it's still restored. it's still not going to appeal to a large section of the buying public.

 

True, Marc, I agree with you here. BUT -- I think that the stigma comes from the fact that many people don't understand restoration. Is a book that starts out as a 9.2 and has two dots of professional color touch on the spine (that takes it to Apparent 9.4) suddenly worth the same as an unrestored 4.0? It shouldn't be, but often it is. By getting rid of the purple label stigma and adding more specific information to the label, I think there is a good chance that people will be forced to learn more about what restoration is and as a result, fear it less.

 

For silver age and later books, it may never make a difference. There are very few silver age books I'd buy as restored books (AF#15, FF#1, ASM#1, and Showcase #4 perhaps being the only ones). Not because I think there's anything wrong with appropriately priced restored books, but just because they're so plentiful in unrestored condition that there's no need to buy (for example) an ASM#63 with a color touched spine. But for golden age and pre-golden age books, these are rare books that can be tough to find in any shape; a dot of archival quality color touch shouldn't have a more severe effect on the value of a book than would a speck of fly excrement. But that's how it is now.

 

if you want people to stop thinking of restoration as "bad" books - which is why i think you personally are in favour of the change - then this isn't your solution. adding information to the label isn't going to do anything to the stigma, either.

 

As I explained above, I think it will change the stigma -- gradually.

 

you can always add information to the existing format. every single suggestion you have advanced for the "new system" is just as easily applicable no matter the colour, but if they stay purple, it eliminates nothing but the potential for confusion.

 

One might argue that the purple label creates as much or more confusion than it cures.

 

and by the way, i don't consider any book "bad." i think there are bad things done to books, but that's about it. oh, except for vince coletta books. those are bad any way you slice it, no matter the grade

 

[Sal]

you and I shall have to disagree on the effect the label colour change has to the stigma of a book that has been restored.

 

i think it will matter little. a book with restoration - even slight, as you mention - is going to be stigmatised by people with a prediliction for that sort of thing.

 

 

 

and i agree that a book with small colour touch that goes from a 9.2 to a 9.4A(s) should not be devalued so much. it represents a nice arbitrage opportunity at the moment however, so perhaps you should keep this all on the d-l for a bit

[Aces]

Hey FFB, in the interest of disclosure, please identify which parties have hired your services in the "Get rid of the PLOD" campaign.

 

OK, but only if in the interests of disclosure you identify the individual who crapps in your Cheerios every morning before you start posting.

 

 

Me!

It's a tough job taking that long ride up to Canada at 3AM every morning, but someone's gotta do it!

[joe_collector]

Is a book that starts out as a 9.2 and has two dots of professional color touch on the spine (that takes it to Apparent 9.4) suddenly worth the same as an unrestored 4.0? It shouldn't be, but often it is.

 

The "Actual Grade" is something I've been asking for a while now, but Steve has said CGC will not do this. Is it going to be part of the new label format, as in a "9.4R (9.2 Actual)" grade?

 

If not, how does anyone know what the "pre-restored" grade is, other than pure guesswork?

[joe_collector]

Hey FFB, in the interest of disclosure, please identify which parties have hired your services in the "Get rid of the PLOD" campaign.

 

OK, but only if in the interests of disclosure you identify the individual who crapps in your Cheerios every morning before you start posting.

 

 

Me!

It's a tough job taking that long ride up to Canada at 3AM every morning, but someone's gotta do it!

 

There one mystery solved, now it's back to FFB to identify who has procured his services to fight the "Get Rid of the PLOD" battle?

[Aces]

Is a book that starts out as a 9.2 and has two dots of professional color touch on the spine (that takes it to Apparent 9.4) suddenly worth the same as an unrestored 4.0? It shouldn't be, but often it is.

 

The "Actual Grade" is something I've been asking for a while now, but Steve has said CGC will not do this. Is it going to be part of the new label format, as in a "9.4R (9.2 Actual)" grade?

 

If not, how does anyone know what the "pre-restored" grade is, other than pure guesswork?

 

How would CGC know either?

The best case they could get would be when they were presented with the paper work and the "pre-restored" grading guess of the restorer.

[joe_collector]

Is a book that starts out as a 9.2 and has two dots of professional color touch on the spine (that takes it to Apparent 9.4) suddenly worth the same as an unrestored 4.0? It shouldn't be, but often it is.

 

The "Actual Grade" is something I've been asking for a while now, but Steve has said CGC will not do this. Is it going to be part of the new label format, as in a "9.4R (9.2 Actual)" grade?

 

If not, how does anyone know what the "pre-restored" grade is, other than pure guesswork?

 

How would CGC know either?

 

FFB is the one who mentioned it, ask him.

[VintageComics]

you and I shall have to disagree on the effect the label colour change has to the stigma of a book that has been restored.

 

i think it will matter little. a book with restoration - even slight, as you mention - is going to be stigmatised by people with a prediliction for that sort of thing.

 

 

 

and i agree that a book with small colour touch that goes from a 9.2 to a 9.4A(s) should not be devalued so much. it represents a nice arbitrage opportunity at the moment however, so perhaps you should keep this all on the d-l for a bit

 

I'd like to politely dis-agree. I think that the reason the books are so stygmatized is because of the purple label (or at least the label is the one of the greatest contributors)...

maybe there are a few seasoned collectors/dealers who can enlighten us on prices of restored books before the 80's? From my understanding through various converstations, restored books used to fetch about 1/2 of what a unrestored book would....not 10-20% like they do now.

[Sal]

you and I shall have to disagree on the effect the label colour change has to the stigma of a book that has been restored.

 

i think it will matter little. a book with restoration - even slight, as you mention - is going to be stigmatised by people with a prediliction for that sort of thing.

 

 

 

and i agree that a book with small colour touch that goes from a 9.2 to a 9.4A(s) should not be devalued so much. it represents a nice arbitrage opportunity at the moment however, so perhaps you should keep this all on the d-l for a bit

 

I'd like to politely dis-agree. I think that the reason the books are so stygmatized is because of the purple label (or at least the label is the one of the greatest contributors)...

maybe there are a few seasoned collectors/dealers who can enlighten us on prices of restored books before the 80's? From my understanding through various converstations, restored books used to fetch about 1/2 of what a unrestored book would....not 10-20% like they do now.

 

but again, all the "Purple Label" represents is a shorthand for a "restored" book. adding a second Grading Score, or what have you to the label serves the same purpose.

 

it's just transferring one shorthanded notation for another, imo

[VintageComics]

you and I shall have to disagree on the effect the label colour change has to the stigma of a book that has been restored.

 

i think it will matter little. a book with restoration - even slight, as you mention - is going to be stigmatised by people with a prediliction for that sort of thing.

 

 

 

and i agree that a book with small colour touch that goes from a 9.2 to a 9.4A(s) should not be devalued so much. it represents a nice arbitrage opportunity at the moment however, so perhaps you should keep this all on the d-l for a bit

 

I'd like to politely dis-agree. I think that the reason the books are so stygmatized is because of the purple label (or at least the label is the one of the greatest contributors)...

maybe there are a few seasoned collectors/dealers who can enlighten us on prices of restored books before the 80's? From my understanding through various converstations, restored books used to fetch about 1/2 of what a unrestored book would....not 10-20% like they do now.

 

but again, all the "Purple Label" represents is a shorthand for a "restored" book. adding a second Grading Score, or what have you to the label serves the same purpose.

 

it's just transferring one shorthanded notation for another, imo

 

But i have to side with some of the guys (and gals?) who agree that the purple label has taken on a negative connotation. I think there needs to be some pro active action on the part of some of the big players to help make resto'd books more accepted...It would do wonders for the hobby which seems to be having a tough time of late.

[awe4one]

[but i have to side with some of the guys (and gals?) who agree that the purple label has taken on a negative connotation. I think there needs to be some pro active action on the part of some of the big players to help make resto'd books more accepted...It would do wonders for the hobby which seems to be having a tough time of late.

 

Bull...the market has spoken and deemed restored comics not as desirable as their virgin counterparts. That it. Why the hell would you try to "make resto'd books more accepted" if the market has already indicated otherwise unless, of course, you're trying to mnipulate the market for these comics...

 

Again...this purple to blue debate is just another attempt to blur the lines between what is and what isn't acceptable forms of restoration. A comic either has had work done or not. Trying to argue semantics that this "dot of color touch" or "slight cleaning" doesn't do anyone justice other than those wanting to profit from restored books in their possession or looking at potential candidates. You sure as hell aren't helping collectors...

 

Jim

[action1kid]

thats how i see it too jim.maybe a third comicbook grading authority is needed..a monopoly in any business is NEVER for the costomer..

[action1kid]

I think you will get more objectivity and very healthy competion[keepin em honest]with multiple graded companies.When have you ever known a monopoly to be fore the people?

[VintageComics]

[but i have to side with some of the guys (and gals?) who agree that the purple label has taken on a negative connotation. I think there needs to be some pro active action on the part of some of the big players to help make resto'd books more accepted...It would do wonders for the hobby which seems to be having a tough time of late.

 

Bull...the market has spoken and deemed restored comics not as desirable as their virgin counterparts. That it. Why the hell would you try to "make resto'd books more accepted" if the market has already indicated otherwise unless, of course, you're trying to mnipulate the market for these comics...

 

Again...this purple to blue debate is just another attempt to blur the lines between what is and what isn't acceptable forms of restoration. A comic either has had work done or not. Trying to argue semantics that this "dot of color touch" or "slight cleaning" doesn't do anyone justice other than those wanting to profit from restored books in their possession or looking at potential candidates. You sure as hell aren't helping collectors...

 

Jim

 

Boy, touched a sore spot did I?

Again, let's not get tunnel vision....I don't know most of you guys from Adam, but are there any seasoned collectors...maybe over the age of 50 or 60 that could shed some light on how restoration was percieved in the past. If you want to talk about what the market has indicated, i think that this negative connotation is only a relatively recent trend. Let's look at all the evidence.

As far as doing collectors a service, there are several people who have spoken out and said they would not mind owning resto'd books, so i do not think you should be speaking on their behalf. I would also, if i did not have the fear of not being able to unload the book later if i had to.

There is no axe being ground here. I have no "future prospects". I very badly regret selling some of restored books as they were the nicest copies I had ever come across and now realize they were worth keeping. I was fairly new at getting re-aquainted with the hobby and was caught up in this PLOD is bad trend. My loss, but let's realize that properly resto'd books for the most part are still beautiful books to own and enjoy!

I think it's the 40 x guide guys (and yes i have sold books for that amount) that have something to lose if resto'd books are ever accepted again...(are you one of those guys, are you trying to manipulate the market )..not the guys who can comfortaly own a resto'd book.

[jbud73]

For me its all about consistency and information from CGC (who does the grading) to the buyer, or submitter. With this is mind I support the idea of taking the Purple Label Away for many of the reasons that Scott (FFB) has posted here. However, I am curious to find out what the result of that Policy WILL be, are they simply going to maintain the same label for restored books or ARE they going to give the consumer more information? That is the key question.

 

Just as I flamed and continue to flame the decisions to: Remove comments from the Blue Label - take away the alpha grades - place Notations such as "FROM THE COLLECTION OF" on the Label .... I support the decision to do away with the Purple and Green. In the aformentioned examples CGC is placing influence on the Hobby, they are crossing the line of independent opinion on a Comic Book and using their position to exert influence on the Hobby - I would furhter posit they are guilty of direct manipulation is some of those instances. I feel the Purple Label also falls into this category.

 

BUT what notations are they going to use for restored books??? This will be key. Are they for example:

 

- Going to Note the Apparent Grade and the Actual Grade without the resto as JC mentioned?

 

- Are they going to create a scale based possibly on Matt Nelson's article in the OSGG that scores the degree of restoration based on a cumulative score of all the techniques that were performed on the book?

 

- How are they going to deal with Qualified Books??? With the scale change??

 

It all comes down to an issue of consistency - as Scott eluded to I DO NOT believe that a book with Slight (P) resto say 9.0 without and AP 9.2 with is worth less or should be scored less than a Blue Label 6.0.

 

By giving the Real and Apparent Grades, but creating a scoring system that brings resto out of the Vague categories of Prof and Amateur: Slight, Moderate and Extensive. I feel CGC to be striving to create more consistency and expand the knowledge base of the Comics Industry.

 

HOWEVER -it all depends on what they WILL DO - because if all they do is change the Color then it smells of another dealer driven tactic to sell for more while disclosing less.

 

Steve I really wish you luck with this new policy as it has the potential to create a higher degree of clarity and eliminate a lot of confusion that currently resides over the extent and degree that restoration plays in the history of any given comic book. I feel that CGC has a chance to do something here that will lay a solid foundation for and increase to knowledge base we have about restored and non-restored books and the difference between the two. Here's hoping they think it through and enact a policy that seeks to educate illuminate rather than confuse.

[awe4one]

If you want to talk about what the market has indicated, i think that this negative connotation is only a relatively recent trend.

 

Distain for the purple label is a recent trend since it didn't exist before CGC. And the reason for the negative connotation? The vast majority submit their books expecting a blue label. When the comic comes back purple, you can bet they're p1ssed. As a result, the purple label has gained a stigma. Collectors who have bought a comic as unrestored and found out later the comic wasn't virgin will always be annoyed. The same will apply if you go with the blue label idea. Those labels will be shunned as well. Just now they won't be as clearly identified and encourage the less than honest in this hobby. The negative connotation isn't the purple label...it's the fact of the label proving they've been duped. And the purple label also illustrates, CLEARLY if kept in the slab, to others that the comic was restored.

 

The label shouldn't be a barrier for those inclined to buy restored comics...they will be getting what they paid for. There's no valid need to merge the colors together and some huge points for keeping it in my opinion...

 

Jim

[THE_BEYONDER]

If you want to talk about what the market has indicated, i think that this negative connotation is only a relatively recent trend.

 

Distain for the purple label is a recent trend since it didn't exist before CGC. And the reason for the negative connotation? The vast majority submit their books expecting a blue label. When the comic comes back purple, you can bet they're p1ssed. As a result, the purple label has gained a stigma. Collectors who have bought a comic as unrestored and found out later the comic wasn't virgin will always be annoyed. The same will apply if you go with the blue label idea. Those labels will be shunned as well. Just now they won't be as clearly identified and encourage the less than honest in this hobby. The negative connotation isn't the purple label...it's the fact of the label proving they've been duped. And the purple label also illustrates, CLEARLY if kept in the slab, to others that the comic was restored.

 

The label shouldn't be a barrier for those inclined to buy restored comics...they will be getting what they paid for. There's no valid need to merge the colors together and some huge points for keeping it in my opinion...

 

Jim

 

Aside from the interests of sellers......I can't think of a single reason why CGC doesn't just put more info on the Purple label.

[Aman619]

If you want to talk about what the market has indicated, i think that this negative connotation is only a relatively recent trend.

 

Distain for the purple label is a recent trend since it didn't exist before CGC. And the reason for the negative connotation? The vast majority submit their books expecting a blue label. When the comic comes back purple, you can bet they're p1ssed. As a result, the purple label has gained a stigma. Collectors who have bought a comic as unrestored and found out later the comic wasn't virgin will always be annoyed. The same will apply if you go with the blue label idea. Those labels will be shunned as well. Just now they won't be as clearly identified and encourage the less than honest in this hobby. The negative connotation isn't the purple label...it's the fact of the label proving they've been duped. And the purple label also illustrates, CLEARLY if kept in the slab, to others that the comic was restored.

 

The label shouldn't be a barrier for those inclined to buy restored comics...they will be getting what they paid for. There's no valid need to merge the colors together and some huge points for keeping it in my opinion...

 

Jim

 

I totally agree. I dont want restored book in my collection. But all those who dont mind them, now's your chance to stock up on some great comics while their prices are depressed by the stigma attatched to them. The only reason I can think of why you guys want blue labels on them might be that you have already bought a bunch and want to see their value increased under a blue label. Well, maybe not the only reason, but - - if YOU like em, what do you care about what anyone else thinks about them. I suppose many of you bought them as restored years ago and have sufferred a drop in values. If so, tough. Join the club with the rest of us who lost money on overgraded and color touched books. CGCs effects have cut both ways - - we have all been affected havent we?

 

As for the history of restored books, back in the great Sothebys days, Jerry Weist et al PUSHED restoration by having many top books done by Susan. Th etrend then was to buy a VG GA key, spend a grand with Susan and get back a very pretty VF that you could sell for thousands more than you paid for it, The catalogues mentioned proudly that books had been "professionally restored'. Under Sothebys imprimature, Restoration had its "Golden Age"

 

But now its over! Its not the label color!