Donatello with extra paper, cover fold 0

[shadroch]

I came across the Donatello 1 that looked like it was missing the bottom of the front cover, but then saw it wasn't missing, just folded inward. 

However, when I opened it, it is actually miscut and has extra paper that caused the fold over. 

If I cut off the excess paper, I'm afraid it will get a purple label. 

Anyone familiar with this situation?

otherwise, it’s a very nice copy

Edited February 1, 2021 by shadroch

[MatterEaterLad]

Would it be considered restoration to trim it to the original printing specs? I mean, if CGC considered that trimming then every book is technically trimmed...at the printer. 

I definitely understand the hesitation. I had a restored book graded that had a tiny corner piece (about that size) repaired via leaf casting. It came back as trimmed. The book is the exact dimensions of an untrimmed copy, but because it was a piece added then trimmed to match the trimming at the printer it was noted as "TRIMMED" on the label 

Definitely a philosophical/technical discussion worth having. 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by MatterEaterLad

[William-James88]

Oh man, great question. I have a similar issue with a Golden Age book where the wraps were not cut right and you have excess wrap on one page while it looks like there are tears and missing pieces on the other wrap. But when you connect them, you see how the whole book is there, just cut wrong. In my case, I wouldn't touch it and I would hope that the people grading are smart enough to notice it and chalk it up to a production error and I wouldn't suffer at all. 

On that logic, I think it would be best for you to keep it inward, as it was produced and thus is being judged as a production error. Would look terrible in a CGC case though, since no one would believe the label and just say it's a QC error on their part.

Ultimately, I wouldn't send this book in and simply sell it raw. The book is a 7.0 at best so not really worth sending in.

[theCapraAegagrus]

If you cut the corner, it will be restored.

[MatterEaterLad]

7 hours ago, Angel of Death said:

If you cut the corner, it will be restored.

If you cut to corner to the dimensions of the original trimming, how would the graders be able to tell?

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, MatterEaterLad said:

If you cut to corner to the dimensions of the original trimming, how would the graders be able to tell?

?

[theCapraAegagrus]

Or:

?

[MatterEaterLad]

1 minute ago, Angel of Death said:

?

I hear ya. Not being facetious and I know graders are incredibly thorough, I guess I'm always a little baffled how a book is considered trimmed when it's trimmed back to the original dimensions it should have been when it left the printer. I mean, technically, every single book is trimmed...by the printer. If this book were trimmed to match the original dimensions of an untrimmed book (as long as the person doing the trimming knew what they were doing) wouldn't it be the same?

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, MatterEaterLad said:

I hear ya. Not being facetious and I know graders are incredibly thorough, I guess I'm always a little baffled how a book is considered trimmed when it's trimmed back to the original dimensions it should have been when it left the printer. I mean, technically, every single book is trimmed...by the printer. If this book were trimmed to match the original dimensions of an untrimmed book (as long as the person doing the trimming knew what they were doing) wouldn't it be the same?

When a comic is manufactured, it's 'cut'. Any trimming post-production is restoration. It can sometimes be really easy to discern what type of tools cut or trimmed which parts of the pages and/or covers.

I do not consider what the manufacturers do, and what the consumers do, to be the same thing.

[MatterEaterLad]

17 minutes ago, Angel of Death said:

I do not consider what the manufacturers do, and what the consumers do, to be the same thing.

I don't either. And I worked in and around the world of four-color printing for 17 years. 

If CGC considers a book to be trimmed because it's smaller than an original book, expertly removing excess paper to bring a book back to those original dimensions isn't the same thing. 

I bring this up because this is something that I've seen graded inconsistently with purple books as of late. In the past, books with leaf casted corners or edge pieces get the notation of "pieces added," which makes sense. But recently I've seen this also tagged with trimming, when the book is the exact same dimension as an untrimmed book. Yes, the excess is trimmed, but that's part of leaf casting an edge. It's a grey area that I think needs clarification. 

I also heard (second-hand) that this came up between an auction house and CGC over some books that the auction house had graded on behalf of a seller. 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by MatterEaterLad

[theCapraAegagrus]

2 minutes ago, MatterEaterLad said:

I don't either. And I worked in and around the world of four-color printing for 17 years. 

If CGC considers a book to be trimmed because it's smaller than an original book, expertly removing excess paper to bring a book back to those original dimensions isn't the same thing. 

I bring this up because this is something that I've seen graded inconsistently with purple books as of late. In the past, books with leaf casted corners or edge pieces get the notation of "pieces added," which makes sense. But recently I've seen this also tagged with trimming, when the book is the exact same dimension as an untrimmed book. Yes, the excess is trimmed, but that's part of leaf casting an edge. It's a grey area that I think needs clarification.

If leaf-casting is added, then it doesn't make sense to call it "trimmed". Are you sure that the leaf-casting is what's being called "trimmed" in those instances?

[MatterEaterLad]

Just now, Angel of Death said:

If leaf-casting is added, then it doesn't make sense to call it "trimmed". Are you sure that the leaf-casting is what's being called "trimmed" in those instances?

I'm not 100% sure of anything these days. But with one book I know of it was definitely not trimmed. I once owned the book, so when someone else had it regraded and I recognized the book and saw that trimming had been added to the label I was surprised. Out of curiosity I took a scan of the regraded book and my old scan and put them on top of each other in Photoshop and they're the exact same size, which is the size of an untrimmed book.  

[Lazyboy]

4 hours ago, MatterEaterLad said:

If you cut to corner to the dimensions of the original trimming, how would the graders be able to tell?

Trimming is determined by examining the edges, not measuring the dimensions.

[MatterEaterLad]

54 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Trimming is determined by examining the edges, not measuring the dimensions.

Then they're currently terrible at it. 

But that would explain why I've had regraded books go from untrimmed to trimmed and trimmed on the top to trimmed on the bottom. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by MatterEaterLad

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, MatterEaterLad said:

Then they're currently terrible at it. 

But that would explain why I've had regraded books go from untrimmed to trimmed and trimmed on the top to trimmed on the bottom. 

I certainly don't disagree with you about CGC's ability to detect trimming, but it's the only way, since measuring absolutely does not work.

[Randall Dowling]

3 hours ago, MatterEaterLad said:

Then they're currently terrible at it. 

But that would explain why I've had regraded books go from untrimmed to trimmed and trimmed on the top to trimmed on the bottom. 

A rather notorious former board member was very good at what is called "micro-trimming".  You would never be able to detect that via Photoshop comparisons as we're talking about removing 1/32" or less of the book.  @Lazyboy is, of course, correct- measuring is completely unreliable and I won't discuss how to detect this here as it will most likely give people ideas.

@shadroch pretty sure you're book is in the same boat as siamese pages.  I don't believe there's any good way to address the situation without causing further damage or the book being considered trimmed.  If it was mine, I'd leave it.  Perhaps @The Lions Den could further enlighten how CGC might handle this.

[lostboys]

17 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

I certainly don't disagree with you about CGC's ability to detect trimming, but it's the only way, since measuring absolutely does not work.

I've been stressing over a run of New Mutant books I purchased recently because they are not all the same size.

It's the Liefeld run minus the 2 big books (87 98) .

Is that actually normal?

[Lazyboy]

4 minutes ago, lostboys said:

I've been stressing over a run of New Mutant books I purchased recently because they are not all the same size.

It's the Liefeld run minus the 2 big books (87 98) .

Is that actually normal?

Yes.

 

[BlowUpTheMoon]

I submitted a Giant Size Marvel that had that issue.  CGC folded it in for me before encapsulation. 

[MR SigS]

I have a J.I.M. Annual #1 with this defect, and unfortunately (and seemingly) as a result 3 pages have been torn at the exact spot where the fold is, including the page with the fold.

I was told by Steve Ricketts (across the street) the tears would be treated as any other tear, even though they were caused in production. I assume because there is no way to prove they happened in production.

I still wonder if that's the case, but not willing to find out via submission. It presents like a VF+, so I'll just be happy with that.

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by MR SigS