Who Really Created the Marvel Universe? 0

[Namtak]

1 minute ago, Namtak said:

The justice league for sale?im in!

Of course flash sold first he has stock at marvel!

[Mmehdy]

I found it interesting to see the complete ff#12 VIDEO when presented to stan lee...he comments about his dialog on exisiting on the original art-PROVE in my mind he did contribute to the creation of the marvel universe on a major basis, but co-creators Diko and Kirby were just as important if not greater.

[Ken Aldred]

8 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

Stan was busy building an empire and giving Ditko and Kirby more room to be adventurous (ASM 20-38 and FF 37-52), the subject matter and the seriousness of it leaned farther away from kids. 

And suddenly Marvel Comics had an older, more educated audience made up of college students.

Interesting parallel with EC Comics, where Gaines gave his writers and artists more creative freedom.  One parallel could be Graham Ingels, who seemed to be a very average, workmanlike artist while constrained by a stale, typical Golden Age house style (=The Silver Age of the late 50s to early 60s) but when unconstrained was discovered to be a genius horror artist. ( =The Marvel 60s renaissance.)

Also, EC’s hard-hitting, groundbreaking relevance stories as another example of creating material that was beyond comics for kids.

There’s a similar process, applied to different products.

 

[Prince Namor]

7 hours ago, Ken Aldred said:

Interesting parallel with EC Comics, where Gaines gave his writers and artists more creative freedom.  One parallel could be Graham Ingels, who seemed to be a very average, workmanlike artist while constrained by a stale, typical Golden Age house style (=The Silver Age of the late 50s to early 60s) but when unconstrained was discovered to be a genius horror artist. ( =The Marvel 60s renaissance.)

Also, EC’s hard-hitting, groundbreaking relevance stories as another example of creating material that was beyond comics for kids.

There’s a similar process, applied to different products.

 

It's a very, very relevant comparison, and a lot of people don't realize how much Stan (and/or Goodman) borrowed from the EC model*. The spotlighting of the artists, the 'Bullpen' marketing, the fan club, the focus on the brand of comics, a happy upbeat letters page and editor voice (in contrast to others very stoic style if they had anything at all), even the picture frame look they would later use...

This is also, a VERY interesting example of how creative those two were (Kirby and Ditko), compared to others (Heck, Tuska) and how Stan constrained those lesser talents. Don Heck in the 50's was a much better artist, and Wally Wood.... Stan had seen success with Kirby and thought others should emulate it - maybe losing out on something more interesting, by trying to shoehorn those guys into a style that didn't fit them. 

*after being a big part of the scumbag publishers who put them out of business with the Comics Code and how it was worded specifically to dismantle their success.

[Ken Aldred]

44 minutes ago, Prince Namor said:

It's a very, very relevant comparison, and a lot of people don't realize how much Stan (and/or Goodman) borrowed from the EC model*. The spotlighting of the artists, the 'Bullpen' marketing, the fan club, the focus on the brand of comics, a happy upbeat letters page and editor voice (in contrast to others very stoic style if they had anything at all), even the picture frame look they would later use...

This is also, a VERY interesting example of how creative those two were (Kirby and Ditko), compared to others (Heck, Tuska) and how Stan constrained those lesser talents. Don Heck in the 50's was a much better artist, and Wally Wood.... Stan had seen success with Kirby and thought others should emulate it - maybe losing out on something more interesting, by trying to shoehorn those guys into a style that didn't fit them. 

*after being a big part of the scumbag publishers who put them out of business with the Comics Code and how it was worded specifically to dismantle their success.

Very, very nicely expanded upon. 

[Prince Namor]

EC Comics was very much what the other publishers DIDN'T want around. Besides their success in the marketplace they paid their artists and writers better, increased page rates as the work sold more and Bill Gaines even gave out bonus money at the annual holiday parties. They glorified the creators - FULL PAGE artist spotlights and names signed on the covers - Bill Gaines wasn't signing his name to anyone's art.

Bill Gaines stood up to the Senate Committee Hearings for the RIGHTS of creators to create art, and the Committee backed off - only to see the publishers themselves create censorship, aimed at the success of EC Comics - even putting together the Comics Code specifically naming EC books (it forbid the use of 'terror', 'horror' and 'crime'!) and of using vampires, werewolves and zombies.

[Mercury Man]

On 2/10/2021 at 9:57 PM, KCOComics said:

A great scientist invents a time machine and thinks "  I'll go back in time to steal a fictional pirates gold"..  and this is where Doctor Doom is introduced to the world?? Do Lee or Kirby really want to take credit for that story? 

I mean, in the context of when it was written, and the target audience it was written for, it is spot on.  The tone of the Silver Age didn't really change until maybe the late 1960's.  

[KCOComics]

Just now, Mercury Man said:

I mean, in the context of when it was written, and the target audience it was written for, it is spot on.  The tone of the Silver Age didn't really change until maybe the late 1960's.  

You are correct. It was really a throw back to the old adventure stories of Atlas and other publishers. 

I think things started to take shape by 64 with some of the Avengers and X-Men stories. By 66 Fantastic Four really came into their own. The difference between #5 and #48 is dramatic. 

[Calamerica]

Stan Lee & Carmine Infantino were crucial in the Atlas/DC years mid 1950's - 1962. End of story.

[Ken Aldred]

On 2/11/2021 at 2:57 AM, KCOComics said:

FF5 is a hard read.

A great scientist invents a time machine and thinks "  I'll go back in time to steal a fictional pirates gold"..  and this is where Doctor Doom is introduced to the world?? Do Lee or Kirby really want to take credit for that story? 

Not to mention the ridiculousness of The Thing trying to disguise himself with a black beard, and the confusion amongst the pirates about whether his dinosaur-like skin was the worst case of scurvy ever or cosmic radiation.

 

[Calamerica]

2 minutes ago, Ken Aldred said:

Not to mention the ridiculousness of The Thing trying to disguise himself with a black beard, and the confusion amongst the pirates about whether his dinosaur-like skin was the worst case of scurvy ever or cosmic radiation.

 

The Hulk is a sort of....rip off of Frankenstein-baby.

Must have been okay to do that...