3rd time's the charm? Avengers 4 CGC 7.5: Improper encapsulation, damage by CGC & what to do next? - Updated Conclusion 0

[Randall Ries]

On 5/4/2021 at 9:42 AM, Phill the Governor said:

UPDATE!

 

After some back and forth, I was told this by customers service:  

"they’ve stated that the book with the errors you have stated would retain the same grade. They would like to offer you $75 in membership credits."

As this was an offensive offer (not to mention they regarded the damage as "errors" LOL), I promptly responded saying I expected my submission costs on the book to be fully refunded, as well as a few hundred dollars for the damage to the book and for my time. Which I do not think is unreasonable at at all. What do others think?

Oh, side note: At the same time- I was just overcharged for my $900+ submission order CGC received the other day AND they did not apply the previous $75 credit from a few weeks back from another damaged book. So not only was the previous credit not applied, but I was actually overcharged.

This is an appalling level of quality control.

What I am beginning to wonder is why another $900 worth of books were sent to them after they torqued the Avengers 4. Also, if after all this, they offered $75 in membership credits to me? Road trip time. I feel for you. I really do. Just unclear as to why you seem to be allowing them to punish you further. A story from my youth:

I worked at an airline in 1983. Suddenly, they laid everyone off. They said "We will call when/if you may return to work. Just hang tight."

So, we were instructed to call once a week. By week three, I was at the end of my patience. So, I drove over. Saw the VP behind the desk dubbing around:

"Hey, Mr. So&So! Want to know what's going on right now so I can move on with things. I have a baby and another one on the way. Gimme a break, huh?"

Mr. So&So: "Well, ok. I'll tell you. No one is coming back. We are in Chapter 11 and are officially bankrupt."

"Ah. I'm sorry about that. I liked working here. I would like the last three weeks of pay I am owed then."

Mr. So&So: "Well, I'M sorry. But I just told you we are bankrupt. We officially have no money. Not even for payroll."

"Oh. Well, that's unfortunate. For both of us. So, I'm going to ask you once more. Want my pay. Want it now, please."

Mr. So&So: "Are you deaf?"

"No. So, I'm coming around this desk. Produce my check before I get to you. Or I'll take three weeks out of your a** And here I come....."

Mr. So&So: "Ok. OK! Here....."

Mr. So&So pulls up a huge stack of rubber banded checks. Flips through. Finds mine and hands it to me. I opened it. Perfect. Three weeks worth. I said "Thank you! Good luck!" Smiled and went to the unemployment office where I could now file for unemployment. While standing out side with a whole lot of other people (This was 1983. Reaganism was in full force and unemployment was high.), I met some other co-workers of the airline! Hey men! You here too!

"Yep. Gotta file. We never even got our last PAYCHECKS!"

"Really? I just did. I had to threaten Mr. So&So with an a** whooping but he pulled out a stack of checks and gave me mine. I bet ALL of yours are in that stack. I just had to motivate him."

"WHAT???"

"Yup."

"We were just UP there and Mr. So&So said there was no paychecks!!!!"

"Yeah. He said that to me at first. I threatened him with bodily harm and out came a stack of paychecks. Yours were there too, I bet. Here's mine!"

Showed them the pay stub. Cashed that puppy IMMEDIATELY after leaving the airport.

"Come ON, BOYS! We are goin' UPSTREET!!!"

Someone called a cab and about 8 of those guys got in the cab and off they went. I would have LOVED to have seen Mr. So&So's face when they went through those doors. Never saw any of them again. But I got mine.

The moral here should be obvious. We don't take getting our property damaged lying down. Then let them spit in our face by offering us a coupon for a free order of lousy cheesie bread. And then send them more business? You got Munchausen's By Proxy or something? Fight, you!

Edited May 5, 2021 by Randall Ries

[Ryan.]

So the airline's payroll department bothered drafting checks for employees that were laid off, handed them to a random VP, and he decided to not distribute these checks to laid off employees for... what reason? How would he benefit? And why would there even be checks available for laid off employees? 

[Phill the Governor]

15 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

What I am beginning to wonder is why another $900 worth of books were sent to them after they torqued the Avengers 4. Also, if after all this, they offered $75 in membership credits to me? Road trip time. I feel for you.

The $900+ worth of submissions I just sent in were all client owned books, none were mine. In short, I took the offer I could get from them and will now be sending in only client own books and very select books of my own.

 

What CGC doesn't know, or doesn't care about, is that the few hundred I wanted in compensation for the damage & my time would have gone right back to them for grading fees on my own books. Instead, I've already begun to sell many of my own books raw. The damage has been done - any excuse to not grade books I will take, and as it stands CGC is already out at least $550 for grading fees that would have been included in the $900+ group of submissions I just sent in. Their response was just enough to let me continue sending in the minimum amount of new submissions I can get away with. The amount of $ they have already lost, and will continue to lose from my reduced business far outweighs the compensation I was asking for. Their loss, and unfortunately there are TONS of cases all over the boards, facebook and instagram of others who are sick of CGC's quality control and lack of critical oversight in making customers happy. It's a shame that a company with so much control over the industry cares more about $ and their ego than making customers happy for the services they pay for.

And don't get me started on the cases. I love how almost any book in a new generation slab has an increased probability of "shaken comic syndrome" because of the faults in the cases construction. If your product can easily damage a book, how is there any solace in books graded 9.8? Wouldn't they all drop in grade at some point since the book is free to move around inside (I have seen SO many high grade books in new generation cases that are damaged from the slab). Absolutely insane.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Phill the Governor

[Randall Ries]

2 hours ago, Ryan. said:

So the airline's payroll department bothered drafting checks for employees that were laid off, handed them to a random VP, and he decided to not distribute these checks to laid off employees for... what reason? How would he benefit? And why would there even be checks available for laid off employees? 

Well, because payroll is not covered under Chapter 11 is my understanding. People gotta get paid. Bankruptcy is a restructuring bid. There is still money. Creditors are lining up to get what they can get. Employees come first. My story illustrates that the company I worked for turned out to be sketchy. There HAS to be a final payroll. But if they could tell soon-to-be-former employees "Sorry, bud. No money. We are bankrupt" and they accept it with some fuss, then that's more money they can either roll toward creditors or give to the mucky-mucks as a bonus.

So, the payroll was based on what I had worked before layoff. Two weeks. They begged off citing cash flow issues and next week will be payday. We worked another week and at the end of that week they bagged us. Made it 3 weeks no pay. We got paid bi-monthly. So, they already knew what was going down. So, from THAT point, we went ANOTHER 3 weeks being treated like human waste.

See? Because they knew that some people would take them at their word. Hosing employees to the bitter end. That group at the UO accepted their word. I did not. It was an insult to be asked "Are you deaf" and it made me see red. After being treated like a chump for 3 weeks. Ok. That just changed everything. Now, I'll just take three weeks out of your backside then. Unless you produce my check. I was 20 years old with a baby and another on the way. (Yeah so what) I had my own agenda, not some company's agenda that couldn't keep it together. They had some serious Union issues and the "garage" started tampering with the brakes on landing gear.

AS a 20 year old, I got lit up faster than I would now. But in retrospect, I think if I had retained that attitude, I would have saved myself a lot of hassle later in life. Instead of being "encouraged" to "Go through proper channels" and "Be an adult about things". I have found that just gives an "opponent" more leverage and most importantly time to position themselves to screw people as hard as they can. NOTHING says "We are settling this NOW" like a 200 lb person willing to go to jail for 90 days for simple assault when someone in a suit is making their bid to treat you like a shmuck and hose you out of 3 weeks pay in the beginning of a pretty bad recession.

You wreck my Avengers 4 that belonged to my Dad after I PAID YOU to take care of it and grade it properly and then offer me free admission to Disneyland? Nope. NOPE. Certainly not going to send MORE books. REALLY not going to accept a cheapjack offer of subscription perks where the company will ultimately make even MORE money from me. No. Gonna drive to FLA. Going to get there. Going to get really loud. Gonna talk to head honcho. Gonna explain AGAIN what happened. Not taking "Sue me" for an answer. That's a further insult. What happened to people? Everyone fights for the wrong reasons now.

[Randall Ries]

36 minutes ago, Phill the Governor said:

The $900+ worth of submissions I just sent in were all client owned books, none were mine. In short, I took the offer I could get from them and will now be sending in only client own books and very select books of my own.

 

What CGC doesn't know, or doesn't care about, is that the few hundred I wanted in compensation for the damage & my time would have gone right back to them for grading fees on my own books. Instead, I've already begun to sell many of my own books raw. The damage has been done - any excuse to not grade books I will take, and as it stands CGC is already out at least $550 for grading fees that would have been included in the $900+ group of submissions I just sent in. Their response was just enough to let me continue sending in the minimum amount of new submissions I can get away with. The amount of $ they have already lost, and will continue to lose from my reduced business far outweighs the compensation I was asking for. Their loss, and unfortunately there are TONS of cases all over the boards, facebook and instagram of others who are sick of CGC's quality control and lack of critical oversight in making customers happy. It's a shame that a company with so much control over the industry cares more about $ and their ego than making customers happy for the services they pay for.

And don't get me started on the cases. I love how almost any book in a new generation slab has an increased probability of "shaken comic syndrome" because of the faults in the cases construction. If your product can easily damage a book, how is there any solace in books graded 9.8? Wouldn't they all drop in grade at some point since the book is free to move around inside (I have seen SO many high grade books in new generation cases that are damaged from the slab). Absolutely insane.

Well, sir. I certainly respect where you are coming from. I get it.

What I don't get is why you aren't making an example of them. Your money won't be missed by them in all due respect. If you want it to stop, or you want it to IMPROVE, you sue. Win or lose that's bad publicity. A class action suit. In the papers. On the news. When I read about the $75 thing, that really was it. How flippant of them.

You want notoriety? Wanna be Robert the Bruce of the comic book grading world? Want real QC when a company that is BEING PAID to handle  peoples valuables hump it up then refuse responsibility? Take them in a class action suit. Bet you would get a whole lotta takers. Bad publicity is one thing NO COMPANY WHO THINKS THEY ARE "LEADERS" IN THEIR FIELD WANT.

Of COURSE there is a certain amount of risk. The character of a company is exposed by the way they handle damage or goof ups. Either "Yes you are correct. That slabber ruined this fine book not once but TWICE. He/she is gone. What can WE DO TO MAKE THIS RIGHT? YOU tell US and it will happen."

OR: "Tough Noogies. Here's a coupon for "Best Buy". Getcha seff a DVD player. This isn't our problem."

Oh yeah it is. Now, CGC has a HUGE problem. Because at the least, THAT is an Avengers 4 in pretty decent grade. Which is now NOT the grade. I know it. YOU know it. CGC knows it and a potential buyer will know it.

So, instead of letting them skate, stop sending books to them. Tell your clients why and file that suit. I would. Sounds like there are enough complaints and damaged books that it would stick and is a viable issue. Who cares if they are "So Busy" and "Swamped with submissions"? That's their problem not yours. Or anyone one else's problem. I pay X amount of dollars for this service. Do it correctly and do it professionally. Toast my submissions and understanding broken.

There must be some angle I don't understand. No waynoWAY I would continue sending them books. What will you tell your clients when one of THEIR books comes back humped? Take the CGC way out? Or eat the expense of someone else's incompetence? Good luck with it. You have an excellent case. Make the changes needed so CGC CAN be #1. Make the changes FOR them if needed. Man. Gouge my car at the detailers then tell me you aren't fixing it? It'll "buff right out?" Oh. OK! Get buffing Turtle Wax monkey. Better be pristine when I see it again. And eat the invoice for me as well. A good company sucks up the errors. Bad companies let errors become legion and people start talking.

[tabcom]

Having read up on this timeline completely, I know what I’m gonna do.

Look for alternative encapsulation service providers in the industry.

God Bless Capitalism.

[The Lions Den]

Well fellas, some days you're the fly...and some days you're the windshield. 

 

[Randall Ries]

37 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

Well fellas, some days you're the fly...and some days you're the windshield. 

 

That implies people should accept getting hit and run by a windshield. Will you share your story of sending in a raw, personal copy of Avengers 4 in nice grade or its equivalent and having it come back torn and dented along the bottom? I mean, if you can be cavalier about that, maybe you have too much money.

[The Lions Den]

8 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

That implies people should accept getting hit and run by a windshield. Will you share your story of sending in a raw, personal copy of Avengers 4 in nice grade or its equivalent and having it come back torn and dented along the bottom? I mean, if you can be cavalier about that, maybe you have too much money.

You act like you're the only person in the world that's ever had a negative experience with CGC. The truth is, many of us have had things go wrong before, including me. I really am sorry about what happened, but I know from experience that you're probably not going to get a better offer.

If you no longer want to use their service, please don't. But insulting CGC on their own chat board is disrespectful and in extremely poor taste...

Edited May 7, 2021 by The Lions Den

[The Lions Den]

9 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

I mean, if you can be cavalier about that, maybe you have too much money.

No, I honestly don't have too much money. But I'm very careful about how I spend it and I do my best to learn from my mistakes...  

[Randall Ries]

5 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

You act like you're the only person in the world that's ever had a negative experience with CGC. The truth is, many of us have had things go wrong before, including me. I really am sorry about what happened, but I know from experience that you're probably not going to get a better offer.

If you no longer want to use their service, please don't. But insulting CGC on their own chat board is disrespectful and in extremely poor taste...

Understood. And yet I see it as constructive criticism at least and a warning at best. I own my own business. I get it. Mistakes are made, of course. It's how those mistakes are dealt with that makes us "great" or "weasels". When you get a rep of being a weasel, business over. . I see NOTHING in Phill's comments he is happy not satisfied with an outcome. And many other threads on CGC's own page.

Bottom line? No business gets to wreck my property and feel like they may get away with it by offering an insult. If you wanted your windows washed, call a company. If they back their heavy truck onto your moist lawn and dent and tear it up, what will you do? Point it out. If they say, "Well, sorry but we are an LLC. Here's a credit for your next window wash." That is not only presumptuous, but callous. It's the same thing with this. Exactly the same thing.

[Randall Ries]

4 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

No, I honestly don't have too much money. But I'm very careful about how I spend it and I do my best to learn from my mistakes...  

Agreed. When the book 1st came back, the brakes would be hit. The mistake was to send it back again. Then, continue sending CLIENT books. What WILL Phill do when those come back damaged? It's a bad spot to be in. A business won't generally change their shabby model if they are not called out. I wouldn't even be talking about this if Phill had said "Oh yes. They treated me right. I am satisfied and confident with CGC going forward." I haven't seen any of that.

In fact, that is what I was hoping for. Good news and happy. I said this before: If it were my company, I would have went straight to EBAY and bought him a graded 7.5. Then come down on the slabbing dept with both feet. Because that's what we do for our valued customers. Want to be N0. 1? Act like you are N0. 1

Edited May 7, 2021 by Randall Ries

[The Lions Den]

48 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

Agreed. When the book 1st came back, the brakes would be hit. The mistake was to send it back again. Then, continue sending CLIENT books. What WILL Phill do when those come back damaged? It's a bad spot to be in. A business won't generally change their shabby model if they are not called out. I wouldn't even be talking about this if Phill had said "Oh yes. They treated me right. I am satisfied and confident with CGC going forward." I haven't seen any of that.

In fact, that is what I was hoping for. Good news and happy. I said this before: If it were my company, I would have went straight to EBAY and bought him a graded 7.5. Then come down on the slabbing dept with both feet. Because that's what we do for our valued customers. Want to be N0. 1? Act like you are N0. 1

I appreciate your integrity. Unfortunately, that seems to be something that's pretty scarce these days...

[Randall Ries]

34 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

I appreciate your integrity. Unfortunately, that seems to be something that's pretty scarce these days...

Agree. I don't expect integrity from people in general although it is a happy thing to find. I DO expect it when I have to pay for it. Explaining the obvious doesn't get me anywhere.

It isn't an argument toward sending raw books in for sure. I suppose I would have to call a given grading company first and go over the "What Happens If" checklist. I mean, I KNOW I am going to pay my invoice. But I don't know what the book will look like when I get it back. Maybe the invoice should be paid AFTER the grade is completed and an HD PDF is sent of the slab along with the invoice. Everything went well. Book is solid. Safe. Nothing bad happened. Total is $1,000,000. CC number, and we will send it out.

Oh yeah but that takes TIME! And we don't HAVE that kinda time. Do you have enough time to dub around with me as I dog you relentlessly over a damaged book? LOL!

I dunno. I feel bad for people when they get humped. Then not so bad when they roll over and accept a fun size bag of Twizzlers as a payoff. I won't talk about it anymore. Unless Phill posts another death book. LOL!

 

[thehumantorch]

On 5/6/2021 at 7:23 AM, Phill the Governor said:

The $900+ worth of submissions I just sent in were all client owned books, none were mine. In short, I took the offer I could get from them and will now be sending in only client own books and very select books of my own.

 

What CGC doesn't know, or doesn't care about, is that the few hundred I wanted in compensation for the damage & my time would have gone right back to them for grading fees on my own books. Instead, I've already begun to sell many of my own books raw. The damage has been done - any excuse to not grade books I will take, and as it stands CGC is already out at least $550 for grading fees that would have been included in the $900+ group of submissions I just sent in. Their response was just enough to let me continue sending in the minimum amount of new submissions I can get away with. The amount of $ they have already lost, and will continue to lose from my reduced business far outweighs the compensation I was asking for. Their loss, and unfortunately there are TONS of cases all over the boards, facebook and instagram of others who are sick of CGC's quality control and lack of critical oversight in making customers happy. It's a shame that a company with so much control over the industry cares more about $ and their ego than making customers happy for the services they pay for.

And don't get me started on the cases. I love how almost any book in a new generation slab has an increased probability of "shaken comic syndrome" because of the faults in the cases construction. If your product can easily damage a book, how is there any solace in books graded 9.8? Wouldn't they all drop in grade at some point since the book is free to move around inside (I have seen SO many high grade books in new generation cases that are damaged from the slab). Absolutely insane.

I think there's a few conclusions we can draw.

1)  Submitting books for grading carries a small but very real risk both in shipping and from the encapsulation process and from the slab itself. 

2)  CGC is very busy and they're making mistakes and there are issues with quality control.

3) There are problems with the design of CGC's case.

4)  CGC will entertain the idea of some compensation, if there is damage to your book, but it will be minimal and you probably won't be happy.

5)  CGC is currently the premier comic grading company and there are few reasonable grading options and they know it.  And let's be honest, sending books to any other company will carry many of the same risks.

[Randall Ries]

3 hours ago, thehumantorch said:

I think there's a few conclusions we can draw.

1)  Submitting books for grading carries a small but very real risk both in shipping and from the encapsulation process and from the slab itself. 

2)  CGC is very busy and they're making mistakes and there are issues with quality control.

3) There are problems with the design of CGC's case.

4)  CGC will entertain the idea of some compensation, if there is damage to your book, but it will be minimal and you probably won't be happy.

5)  CGC is currently the premier comic grading company and there are few reasonable grading options and they know it.  And let's be honest, sending books to any other company will carry many of the same risks.

I will do my very best to make them less busy. I have zero sympathy for CGC or any grading company that damages books in their care. I have 100% sympathy for the crestfallen owner when they look at their damaged book.

If CGC's QC begins to slip, it may just be the motivation another grading company needs to step up and institute steady grading criteria and the absolute elimination of the possibility of damage. Disdain for clients is the beginning of a company's image becoming tarnished.

I will come as far to agree that the design of the holder need to be rethought.

[The Lions Den]

1 hour ago, Randall Ries said:

If CGC's QC begins to slip, it may just be the motivation another grading company needs to step up and institute steady grading criteria and the absolute elimination of the possibility of damage. Disdain for clients is the beginning of a company's image becoming tarnished.

QC is one of the most important jobs at CGC, and also one of the most demanding...

[Randall Ries]

1 hour ago, The Lions Den said:

QC is one of the most important jobs at CGC, and also one of the most demanding...

That's true.

Say, you know your favorite cult rock band who had a small following but they were awesome and then they had a big hit and then the jig was up and they became very popular and wealthy and did world tours and then bought into their own hype then ended up dying in a ditch with a mouthful of pills?

[The Lions Den]

48 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

That's true.

Say, you know your favorite cult rock band who had a small following but they were awesome and then they had a big hit and then the jig was up and they became very popular and wealthy and did world tours and then bought into their own hype then ended up dying in a ditch with a mouthful of pills?

Yep. They're on a treadmill with no "off" switch...   

[ramithard]

Bottom line is if you are going to start a company that handles high dollar collectibles, you better have the insurance to pay off if an employee f's it up.

Buy the guy a 7.5 off ebay.  It may not be his "personal" book from pops....but " monetarily" it's the right thing to do....then claim on insurance.

Then they have to original book to do as they please