Purple Restored vs. Blue Apparent?

[gpanalysis]

Do you have information on the percentage of golden age KEY books that are restored.I would think the figures would be much higher.

 

Actually, if you give me an idea on which key books (Action #1, etc) you wish us to look at then we can analyze restore/unrestored numbers/values.

 

 

[action1kid]

i would say the overstreet top 10 goldenage.

[uclapeterg]

Most books get sold with reasonable scans or disclosure of label info, serial number, etc.

 

Please let me know who these people are. When I ask for bigger scans, I get maybe ~15-20% reply rate.

[joe_collector]

Please let me know who these people are.

 

The same collectors who CGC polled and ALL agree with the new label change and think it will be just super for ALL collectors.

[FFB]

But if a seller wants to scam a totally uneducated buyer, they can do that now with even a purple label.

 

And even easier with a blue label.

 

Not to mention looking innocent while doing so.

 

"I posted the CGC label, it's your fault you didn't ask questions" retorted Big Hass Resto Dealer #86 after scamming another newbie with a mini-scan of a Blue Label Franken-Book.

 

Vince...you know my stand on the rights of the buyer.......but in this case.....if the information about the book is easily available, (on the label) then the buyer has some responsibility to educate him or her self before laying down significant amounts of $$$ for a collectible.

 

If CGC makes this info available on their website, and in OS, and other places....then I'm not concerned. If unscrupulous sellers want to muddy the distinctions in their ebay sales, then we'll just have to rat the bums out like we do now.

 

[FFB]

Most books get sold with reasonable scans or disclosure of label info, serial number, etc.

 

Please let me know who these people are. When I ask for bigger scans, I get maybe ~15-20% reply rate.

 

Your response is a non sequitur. Most books are sold with scans large enough to see the difference between the current blue label and a blue label with two number grades on it. Whether the seller gives you a mega-scan so that you can analyze micro-defects is irrelevant.

 

As for George's point, if a seller won't give you the serial number or answer questions about the book, then don't bid regardless of the color of the label because the book is probably a swiped scan!

[uclapeterg]

Most books get sold with reasonable scans or disclosure of label info, serial number, etc.

 

Please let me know who these people are. When I ask for bigger scans, I get maybe ~15-20% reply rate.

 

Your response is a non sequitur. Most books are sold with scans large enough to see the difference between the current blue label and a blue label with two number grades on it. Whether the seller gives you a mega-scan so that you can analyze micro-defects is irrelevant.

 

As for George's point, if a seller won't give you the serial number or answer questions about the book, then don't bid regardless of the color of the label because the book is probably a swiped scan!

 

Oh really? I didn't know that. Thanks for that information.

[gpanalysis]

Most books get sold with reasonable scans or disclosure of label info, serial number, etc.

 

Please let me know who these people are. When I ask for bigger scans, I get maybe ~15-20% reply rate.

 

And do you bid on those auctions with tiny/no scans, and where no information is forthcoming? I'm not sure how that is the fault of the label.

 

Especially when the book in question makes a regular appearance on eBay and other venues. Likewise, if a book is rare/high grade, why would anyone bid on it if there are unanswered questions or small scans, etc? The general rule is, if it looks too good to be true, then it is.

 

There is technology that could make such venues as eBay completely fraud-free if they were prepared to participate (I'm talking specifically for CGC comics) - it would require sellers to purchase a cheap barcode scanner that would already be customized for the specific use of listing CGC books, bringing up all the information of the comic without the need (in fact it would be a requirement) to type anything. At least in such circumstances where scans were small, information would be forthcoming about the book/certification.

 

At the end of the day the problems of fraud and non disclosure are beyond blaming a label on a certified book.

[lou_fine]

The top of the label will read CGC APPARANT GRADE and over the numerical grade it will state RESTORED or CONSERVED and under the numerical grade it will state P LEVEL 8. The P will stand for professional and the level will note how much work was done and the appearance of the work done. The work done to the book will still be noted on the label in the same space it always has, you will just have more information.

 

Nothing is set in stone. A info packet of the changes we would like to make are going out to dealers and collectors (including some forum members) to get input before we implement any changes. So, keep talking among yourselves (I like the input of your opinions) and when the info packet shows up, I am sure someone will post the stuff, and you will have all the info on the proposed changes.

 

Steve;

 

This last part sounds like an excellent idea to get feedback from the collecting community as a whole prior to finalizing and implementing the new system.

 

Any chance that your restoration rating system is not yet set in stone and can still be reversed. I fully understand that condition grade on a 10-point grading system would use 10 as the highest score since 10 is a higher number than 1 and all collectors would be striving to achieve the MAXIMUM grade.

 

When it comes to restoration, however, on a 10-point rating system, I would expect 1 to be a more desireable rating than 10 since all collectors would be striving to achieve the MINIMUM amount of restoration. Even your own quote from above acknowledges this line of thinking since you state that "the level will note how much work was done". I believe Jon Berk's original proposal from several years ago also uses R-1 as minimal resto and R-10 as extensive resto.

 

Bottom-line: Collector's immediate normal thought processes would not link condition grade to restoration in the way you mentioned in order to justify using 10 as the high score for both systems. Your version requires mental gymnastics, whereas collectors automatically know they want the HIGHEST condition grade and the LOWEST amount of restoration.

[FFB]

The top of the label will read CGC APPARANT GRADE and over the numerical grade it will state RESTORED or CONSERVED and under the numerical grade it will state P LEVEL 8. The P will stand for professional and the level will note how much work was done and the appearance of the work done. The work done to the book will still be noted on the label in the same space it always has, you will just have more information.

 

Nothing is set in stone. A info packet of the changes we would like to make are going out to dealers and collectors (including some forum members) to get input before we implement any changes. So, keep talking among yourselves (I like the input of your opinions) and when the info packet shows up, I am sure someone will post the stuff, and you will have all the info on the proposed changes.

 

Steve;

 

This last part sounds like an excellent idea to get feedback from the collecting community as a whole prior to finalizing and implementing the new system.

 

Any chance that your restoration rating system is not yet set in stone and can still be reversed. I fully understand that condition grade on a 10-point grading system would use 10 as the highest score since 10 is a higher number than 1 and all collectors would be striving to achieve the MAXIMUM grade.

 

When it comes to restoration, however, on a 10-point rating system, I would expect 1 to be a more desireable rating than 10 since all collectors would be striving to achieve the MINIMUM amount of restoration. Even your own quote from above acknowledges this line of thinking since you state that "the level will note how much work was done". I believe Jon Berk's original proposal from several years ago also uses R-1 as minimal resto and R-10 as extensive resto.

 

Bottom-line: Collector's immediate normal thought processes would not link condition grade to restoration in the way you mentioned in order to justify using 10 as the high score for both systems. Your version requires mental gymnastics, whereas collectors automatically know they want the HIGHEST condition grade and the LOWEST amount of restoration.

 

I agree completely with LouFine here. By the way, Steve, I don't know if you want my opinion on your info packet, but if you are inclined to send me one, I'd be happy to contribute to the process.

[gpanalysis]

I've taken the top 30% of GA books (by sales)....

 

 

[gpanalysis]

GPAnalysis for CGC Comics: Golden Age (1938 - 1952) Restored Comic Book Analysis The following table represents the top 30% (by value) Golden Age certified (CGC) books, with sales data collected between June 2002 and September 2005. Each book is analyzed for (column 2, TotValue) Total Value, (column 3, TotValue) Total Restored Value, (column 4, PercentRest) Percentage of Restored Value over Total Value, (column 5, TotVolume) Total Volume, (column 6, TotVolumeRest) Total restored Volume, and (column 7, Percent Rest) Percentage of Restored Volume over Total Volume. As an example, looking at the first comic in the table, "Action Comics (1938) #1"; there are 11 copies totalling $642,554 in sales, with 1 restored copy of $58,139 - this represents 9.0% in restored sales and 9.1% in restored volume for this book.     Title TotValue TotValueRest PercentRest TotVolume TotVolumeRest PercentRest  Action Comics (1938) #1    $642,554     $58,139    9.0%    11     1    9.1%	Batman (1940) #1	$607,668	$163,781	27.0%	39	18	46.2%
Marvel Comics (1939) #1	$535,399	$39,675	7.4%	11	2	18.2%

 Captain America Comics (1941-1954) #1    $517,803     $74,997    14.5%    27     9    33.3%   Superman (1939-1986) #1    $508,499     $239,009    47.0%    23     16    69.6%   Detective Comics (1937) #27    $476,466     $99,500    20.9%    10     2    20.0%   Detective Comics (1937) #38    $396,224     $15,808    4.0%    22     4    18.2%   Human Torch, The (1940-1954) #1    $303,070     $17,875    5.9%    23     3    13.0%   Wonder Woman (1942-1986) #1    $250,349     $19,724    7.9%    24     5    20.8%   Sub-Mariner Comics (1941-1955) #1    $201,667     $5,353    2.7%    20     2    10.0%   Green Lantern (1941-1949) #1    $197,742     $12,925    6.5%    19     4    21.1%   Young Allies Comics (1941-1946) #1    $197,713     $690    0.3%    19     1    5.3%   All-American Comics (1939-1948) #16    $196,111     $43,461    22.2%    13     5    38.5%   Mad (1952) #1    $186,587     -    0.0%    65     -    0.0%   All Star Comics (1940-1978) #3    $182,578     $31,295    17.1%    11     7    63.6%   All-Flash (1941-1948) #1    $176,512     $510    0.3%    23     1    4.3%   Sensation Comics (1942-1952) #1    $153,236     $3,699    2.4%    12     2    16.7%   Flash Comics (1940-1949) #1    $153,129     $24,640    16.1%    14     4    28.6%   More Fun Comics (1936-1947) #53    $141,338     $3,050    2.2%    5     1    20.0%   Marvel Mystery Comics (1939-1949) #9    $132,808     $2,760    2.1%    10     1    10.0%   All Star Comics (1940-1978) #1    $128,971     -    0.0%    20     -    0.0%   Detective Comics (1937) #33    $128,201     $19,074    14.9%    17     6    35.3%   Adventure Comics (1938-1983) #40    $124,797     $70,150    56.2%    7     2    28.6%   All Winners Comics (1941-1948) #1    $124,553     $10,178    8.2%    12     4    33.3%   Batman (1940) #6    $117,557     $1,770    1.5%    33     3    9.1%   Superman (1939-1986) #2    $111,595     $4,995    4.5%    20     3    15.0%   Batman (1940) #11    $110,909     $1,304    1.2%    30     2    6.7%   Superboy (1949-1979) #1    $109,365     $20,921    19.1%    34     6    17.6%              -continued-

[gpanalysis]

GPAnalysis for CGC Comics: Golden Age (1938 - 1952) Restored Comic Book Analysis   Title TotValue TotValueRest PercentRest TotVolume TotVolumeRest PercentRest  More Fun Comics (1936-1947) #54    $107,910     $5,448    5.0%    8     3    37.5%	Adventure Comics (1938-1983) #48	$106,392	$25,091	23.6%	12	7	58.3%
Batman (1940) #5	$103,121	$1,600	1.6%	39	1	2.6%

 Daredevil Comics (1941-1956) #1    $90,954     $2,807    3.1%    9     2    22.2%   Special Edition Comics (1940) #1    $90,702     $2,700    3.0%    13     1    7.7%   Crypt of Terror (1950) #17    $88,565     $406    0.5%    16     1    6.3%   Target Comics (1940-1949) #7    $86,514     $863    1.0%    8     1    12.5%   Wow Comics (1940-1948) #1    $85,640     $1,115    1.3%    6     2    33.3%   Batman (1940) #23    $80,579     -    0.0%    51     -    0.0%   Whiz Comics (1940-1953) #1    $80,023     $39,100    48.9%    8     4    50.0%   Haunt of Fear (1950-1954) #15    $79,967     -    0.0%    10     -    0.0%   World's Best Comics (1941) #1    $78,081     $3,895    5.0%    27     3    11.1%   Adventure Comics (1938-1983) #41    $76,762     -    0.0%    10     -    0.0%   Batman (1940) #3    $76,050     $6,542    8.6%    32     4    12.5%   More Fun Comics (1936-1947) #62    $72,987     $736    1.0%    14     2    14.3%   Action Comics (1938) #25    $72,107     -    0.0%    7     -    0.0%   Planet Comics (1940-1954) #1    $70,891     -    0.0%    6     -    0.0%   USA Comics (1941-1945) #1    $70,682     $1,897    2.7%    16     2    12.5%   All-Select Comics (1943-1946) #1    $67,497     $7,614    11.3%    16     6    37.5%   Amazing-Man Comics (1939-1942) #5    $67,390     $4,140    6.1%    4     3    75.0%   All Star Comics (1940-1978) #8    $64,088     $8,029    12.5%    16     4    25.0%   Daring Mystery Comics (1940-1942) #2    $63,875     -    0.0%    8     -    0.0%   New York World's Fair (1939) #12345678    $62,939     $6,087    9.7%    14     3    21.4%   More Fun Comics (1936-1947) #101    $62,124     -    0.0%    8     -    0.0%   Marvel Mystery Comics (1939-1949) #7    $61,096     $2,703    4.4%    14     2    14.3%   More Fun Comics (1936-1947) #58    $60,957     -    0.0%    4     -    0.0%   More Fun Comics (1936-1947) #56    $60,865     -    0.0%    8     -    0.0%  Totals ($/vol)   $9,202,155.0   $1,106,053.0   12.0%   958   165   17.2% % of Total GA Market   29.9%   69.2%     3.3%   16.0%   Total ($/vol) GA Market   $30,779,382.7   $1,598,881.7   5.2%   28,762   1,031   3.6%

[slab_em-migration]

An informed hobbyist is much better off.

 

If this is true, then why did CGC take the grader's notes and alphabetical grade off the labels??? Or does this statement only apply within this context of restoration?

[fingfangfoom]

Overwhelming majority will understand the new blue labeling ...this caught my attention and suggests that a underwhelming minority will not understand the new labels.

Isn't even a few too many?

Again, I have to ask: Why the need to drop the purple label on restored books? If the argument is going to be that the new blue labels should be understood...then the counter argument is that the purple label IS understood and has been for five plus years.

 

I see the GPA charts, wonderful things that they are and well worth the money I pay each month. However, I believe the question wasn't how many restored book transactions have taken place...the question was how many restored books has CGC graded to date.

 

My question would be: Of the books that have received purple labels from CGC, how many would could be be "upgraded" to the conserved/preserved label?

How many resubmittals are we looking at?

 

I don't have a problem with the new conserved/preserved tier, I just can't see the need to eliminate a color label that has circulated in the market since CGC's inception and is so clearly identified by ALL collectors. To attempt to "blend" the restored book with unrestored books with the use of a blue label is pure marketing.

 

Keep the PLOD.

[gpanalysis]

I see the GPA charts, wonderful things that they are and well worth the money I pay each month. However, I believe the question wasn't how many restored book transactions have taken place...the question was how many restored books has CGC graded to date.

 

Good point. Valiantman might like to chime in to verify, but a quick analysis of the census shows 47,118 books graded in total from 1938 to 1952, with 3,963 of these being restored. That is, a little over 8%.

 

The question that arises from this then, is how much $$$ these approx 4,000 books represent in the marketplace.

 

Hope this helps. Regards GP.

[Point Five]

Thanks GP, very interesting stuff!

 

Action1kid, you're often talking about the scarcity of unrestored Superman #1s... well, though this is tracking sales only, the above tables certainly back that up. Even compared to other GA keys, Superman #1 jumps way out as far as the percentage restored.

[action1kid]

thank you point five!

 

The book has a beautiful cover and because of that it was a magnet for crayons,

[meaning amature restorers.]. I will even add that the book becomes exceedingly rare above 5.5 unrestored....However i have no dought that the mile high supes #1[cgc 8.0][this book had its resto removed] is NOT the highest unrestored copy.

There are a very few that i believe are higher.They are in raw states...

[Aman619]

Anderson has one higher. You know of another one?

[action1kid]

Actually that is the one i mean.I just refrained from using his name.

I believe he sold the 7.5 he had.