A Discussion About How CGC Label Non-US Publications Which Reprint / Reproduce Original US Comic Content 10 10

[Get Marwood & I]

35 minutes ago, steve566 said:

I think CGC had to decide which direction they were going to go with foreign comics and decided on a “cover approach” rather than the “guts approach”. I’m heavily involved with foreign comic collectors and can say for a fact that some are outraged by the new labels and others love them. I think CGC still has a ways to go but they are at least trying to do SOMETHING with foreign Editions. I think by using the cover approach they are making it much easier to search the census for foreign books since all you have to do is type “Spiderman 300” and you see all of the different countries publishers in one place. Is the information 100% accurate, no.. but it’s a start. I’ll include pictures of my slabbed foreigns so you can see more new labels

First things first, you have some lovely books there Steve. Really nice.

I'm glad I started this thread now, as I wasn't aware that CGC were actually starting to label in a cover vs guts, as you say, way. Personally, I think that is a disaster.

If they are going to label the Danish publication Batman #25 as "Batman #181" then what will they call number 26, 27 or 300 if it doesn't have a 'key' cover? That's madness. What if the Danes suddenly decide to produce an issue with a unique cover - does it suddenly magically become itself, just because there is no US original with the same cover? Will we end up with issues in the same run of a foreign publication categorised in different ways, some as themselves and others in line with the US originals that they reprint?

Prioritising the 'key' content status of the US original over the actual details of the comic being graded is a ridiculous strategy. It's all about status and, by nature of the financial implication, greed, when it should be about accuracy of data and reality, surely?

I'm at a loss here. Someone help me. 

Very yes:  

Very no:   

                                                                                  

[Get Marwood & I]

37 minutes ago, steve566 said:

Issues I had where that the Indonesian batman information is way off... I honestly don’t think they had any idea on how to approach these extremely rare comics.. most people don't have a clue that golden age Batman covers were redrawn and used in Indonesia.

also the Swedish batman 181 does contain the 1st app of Poison ivy but they didn’t put that on the label.

Seems UK books keep their original titles 

It's quite funny that in their rush to call #25 #181 that they forgot to mention Poison Ivy isn't it.

If they followed my suggested strategy of 'calling them what they are', would there be a problem with those Indonesian comics? If you answered the following factually, would the issue go away?

• Title
• Issue Number
• Publisher
• Date
• Variation Type (UK Price Variant, Mark Jewelers Insert etc)
• Notes (what original US comic does it reprint?)

I changed 'designation' by the way to 'variation type' - designation wasn't a good choice of word on reflection. We could probably debate what that data element should be called as it goes. 

[themagicrobot]

This one has the correct title though?

 

[steve566]

From my conversation with CGC staff they will label based on cover. If it is an original cover only used in a foreign country then it will get the “old style” foreign label with foreign title and numbering prominent. 
The whole Labeling issue has the foreign comic community split... some who see it as a cheaper way to own grail books are ecstatic. Others who like the originality of the foreign publications and come from a more academic approach hate it.. I appreciate that cgc is at least trying to do something with the foreign labels and providing some notations now but there’s still a ways to go

[steve566]

3 minutes ago, themagicrobot said:

This one has the correct title though?

 

That’s old style label since it’s from 2018.. news labels started just recently in mid 2020

Edited April 25, 2021 by steve566

[Get Marwood & I]

3 minutes ago, steve566 said:

From my conversation with CGC staff they will label based on cover. If it is an original cover only used in a foreign country then it will get the “old style” foreign label with foreign title and numbering prominent. 

So to be clear, CGC staff have confirmed verbally that that is now the approach?

3 minutes ago, steve566 said:

The whole Labeling issue has the foreign comic community split...

I don't post online anywhere else Steve - who is this community and where do they voice their views? 

3 minutes ago, steve566 said:

That’s old style label... probably graded before 2020

So they are moving away from literal labelling / accuracy towards pandering to a niche group who get excited by reprints of grails? 

[Get Marwood & I]

11 minutes ago, themagicrobot said:

This one has the correct title though?

 

So CGC think that second letter is a lower case 'n' too, do they 

Get the date right, get rid of 'Greek Edition' and replace 'Marvel' with 'Kabanas Hellas' and that old style approach label would be nigh on perfect.

[steve566]

From my understanding there was supposed to be some formal announcement about it by now.. but we haven’t heard anything yet

The most active community is on Facebook, Foreign comic collectors magazine (official). FCC has had the most discussion about the labels.

Also a lot of chatter on Instagram and it has been discussed on a couple YouTube podcast shows.

[OtherEric]

I don't think me too posts are generally very useful, but I agree with @Get Marwood & Icompletely on this one... they should label the book to say what it actually is, not what it reprints or what people want it to be or what the cover is a reprint of.  Although a note saying what it reprints is completely appropriate.

[Get Marwood & I]

17 hours ago, steve566 said:

From my understanding there was supposed to be some formal announcement about it by now.. but we haven’t heard anything yet

The most active community is on Facebook, Foreign comic collectors magazine (official). FCC has had the most discussion about the labels.

Also a lot of chatter on Instagram and it has been discussed on a couple YouTube podcast shows.

Thanks Steve - they're not areas I visit or follow. Thanks for joining in - it's news to me that this was in the pipeline and a complete coincidence that I started the thread. I just saw that Greek 'ASM #252' in another thread and it annoyed me.  

17 hours ago, OtherEric said:

I don't think me too posts are generally very useful, but I agree with @Get Marwood & Icompletely on this one... they should label the book to say what it actually is, not what it reprints or what people want it to be or what the cover is a reprint of.  Although a note saying what it reprints is completely appropriate.

It's difficult to imagine why we are here trying to defend calling something what it is, against what it isn't, isn't it Eric. And his Other. 

If you record data literally as follows....

• Title
• Issue Number
• Publisher
• Date
• Variation Type (UK Price Variant, Mark Jewelers Insert etc)
• Notes (what original US comic does it reprint?)

....you can't go wrong and everything will make sense both to the eyes when you hold a foreign slab in your mitts and in the census and other such records. 

Adopting a strategy where you call things what they are not - and then only selectively - is a complete disaster. It is a disservice to accuracy and a pandering to a niche group. 

[steve566]

12 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

So they are moving away from literal labelling / accuracy towards pandering to a niche group who get excited by reprints of grails? 

 

The use of the word “reprint” on the old foreign labels was what most people hated the most. Technically they aren’t considered reprints since it is that countries 1st exposure to the material. That is why they use the term carried over from book publishing which is “Edition”  
I wouldn’t say they have pandered to a niche market since nobody at cgc asked for any input from the foreign collecting community. This was a decision made solely by CGC. Some of the biggest foreign collectors in the world have offered to assist CGC in improving the labels and have not gotten any response. 
Wether loved or hated this appears to be the way CGC is moving forward.. but don’t shoot the messenger 😃

[Get Marwood & I]

Just now, steve566 said:

The use of the word “reprint” on the old foreign labels was what most people hated the most. Technically they aren’t considered reprints since it is that countries 1st exposure to the material. That is why they use the term carried over from book publishing which is “Edition”  
I wouldn’t say they have pandered to a niche market since nobody at cgc asked for any input from the foreign collecting community. This was a decision made solely by CGC. Some of the biggest foreign collectors in the world have offered to assist CGC in improving the labels and have not gotten any response. 
Wether loved or hated this appears to be the way CGC is moving forward.. but don’t shoot the messenger 😃

That wasn't my intention Steve, apologies if you thought that from my replies. And I take your point about my pandering comment - that can't be so if CGC did not consult anyone.

Whatever way you look at it, it's a bad decision I think. I had some dialogue with Matt Nelson about the change to 'UK Price Variant' and found him to be reasonable and respectful in his responses. Some people weren't happy with that change - I understood why, but would always hope that I could persuade them at least of my own rationale for it. While not perfect, you can make a case for it that stands up to scrutiny I feel. This decision? I can't see how you can defend it. As I said, a dog is a dog, not a variant of a cat. You can - and should - call something what it is if you are in the grading game - you can't call it what it isn't. 

 

[steve566]

11 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

That wasn't my intention Steve, apologies if you thought that from my replies. And I take your point about my pandering comment - that can't be so if CGC did not consult anyone.

 

No worries, it’s  an interesting discussion to have and maybe one day we will hear from CGC why they decided to do it this way

[steve566]

2 minutes ago, Smoke Weed Every Day said:

Oh the poor fanboys got their Undeoos all in a bunch? 🎻 They are reprints, that "edition" stuff is a bunch of carp.

Bull

Haha seems like the quite the opposite actually.. seemed like a fairly intelligent dialogue going on amongst adults until you showed up.. foreign collecting is picking up a lot of steam in the last year.. hate on it all you want but plenty of people love it.. 

[steve566]

So what is the problem exactly? And who is being disingenuous about it? You seem to have a big opinion about it so please explain it?

3 minutes ago, Smoke Weed Every Day said:

If the fanboys weren't so disingenuous about it wouldn't be as much of a problem. And this has been a problem for years, not just the past year. 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by steve566

[Chaz G.]

Here are a few Italian ASMs that have no consistency in labeling.

 

My 2 favorites:

   

 

[Get Marwood & I]

17 hours ago, steve566 said:

Haha seems like the quite the opposite actually.. seemed like a fairly intelligent dialogue going on amongst adults until you showed up.. foreign collecting is picking up a lot of steam in the last year.. hate on it all you want but plenty of people love it.. 

My discussions aren't often referred to as intelligent Steve 

Ignore him by the way - previous banned member who we can't do much about it seems. Even if the mods ban this latest account he'll be back before you know it. It's just something you have to put up with on forums like these.

I think the word 'reprint' is appropriate to foreign publications myself, but in the sense that they 'reprint' original US comic content either in full or in part. I understand the argument of local 'first exposure' but I think calling a book, for example, a 'Publication of Greece' and then stating on the label notes that it 'Reprints the first appearance of....' is a factually accurate statement that is defendable. 

Sometimes it's not possible to coin a single phrase or definition that everyone will be happy with. You have to make the case for the best you can come up with and hope the majority agree.

[Get Marwood & I]

5 minutes ago, Chazgee said:

Here are a few Italian ASMs that have no consistency in labeling.

My 2 favorites:

   

 

Exactly, good examples Chaz. 

I'm logging off now. I think I've made my own position, and preferred approach clear. Happy to defend it further if anyone violently disagrees!

[steve566]

6 minutes ago, Chazgee said:

Here are a few Italian ASMs that have no consistency in labeling.

 

My 2 favorites:

   

 

Difference is some are old label and some are new style.. the second book was just delivered to my buddy last week from CGC so that is how the labels are being done now... the other one has been on eBay for well over a year I believe so that’s the old style label...

 

4 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

My discussions aren't often referred to as intelligent Steve 

Ignore him by the way - previous banned member who we can't do much about it seems. Even if the mods ban this latest account he'll be back 

Good to know, I won’t feed the troll anymore haha

[Get Marwood & I]

14 hours ago, Smoke Weed Every Day said:

Doesn't invalidate the facts I state 

No, it doesn't, and occasionally you are right Stu, yes. But you have forfeited the right to be here legitimately and anything positive that you have to say is, for me at least, more often than not, drowned out by the manner in which you say it. You knowingly and willingly cross the line of what is acceptable, and you always resort to childish name calling and personal attacks when pressed to clarify points. Accordingly, you're not someone who I want to engage with and I ask you not to interact with me.