A Discussion About How CGC Label Non-US Publications Which Reprint / Reproduce Original US Comic Content 10 10

[Qalyar]

1 hour ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Thanks Steve. Is there any school of thought on why some of the Mexican cover art was amended, like the RK17 example above? Many of the UK Marvel weeklies had differences or additional art. 

My guess? I bet the Rawhide Kid himself was drawn and inked separately, and composited onto the background for printing. Since the building artwork seems fluid and continuous and the formerly-invisible background woman matches the other bystanders in style and professionalism, I'm reasonably certain it wasn't amended locally.

The Kid himself, though... Perhaps La Prensa decided that it was unfair to that background character that she didn't appear on the cover. Perhaps they weren't sure how to composite the Rawhide Kid overlay onto the background, since any position would conceal a character. Perhaps the Rawhide Kid overlay they received was damaged in transit. Regardless, his right leg was clearly re-cut by a well-meaning, presumably local, comic artist whose skills weren't quite up to the level of Kirby and Ayers. No shame in that, really.

As an interesting aside, the La Prensa artist also apparently decided that front cover Rawhide Kid needed his hair recolored blond. I wonder if that decision was an effort to make the cover characters more uniform in appearance, since Aguila Blanca was a composite of several Western series, and Kid Colt has blond hair.

[Aman619]

10 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Thanks Steve. Is there any school of thought on why some of the Mexican cover art was amended, like the RK17 example above? Many of the UK Marvel weeklies had differences or additional art. 

we have seen the need for wider artwork before.. they make the art smaller in proportion to fit a taller masthead/logo above it.  So they run out of art on the left or right, and have someone just scribble /extend the art.  usually simple lines etc.  Cant figure out why they changed Rawhide Kids leg though. Everything else in that area lines up same as the Marvel cover.

 

[steve566]

 

15 hours ago, Aman619 said:

we have seen the need for wider artwork before.. they make the art smaller in proportion to fit a taller masthead/logo above it.  So they run out of art on the left or right, and have someone just scribble /extend the art.  usually simple lines etc.  Cant figure out why they changed Rawhide Kids leg though. Everything else in that area lines up same as the Marvel cover.

 

Yep the la prensas always show more of the art although I think a lot of it is original art that had been cropped out for the American edition.. I’m not sure why rawhide kids legs are different; very strange.. I’ve always wondered why my Los hombres x 1 has Jean grey telekinetic beam on it while the US Edition doesn’t (and several other foreign publishers have it also).. I know sometimes the foreign publishers recieved 1st draft art work that was later changed for the American Edition but still seen on foreigns.. most famous is the Hulk annual that retained Sterankos original untouched Hulk Face

Edited May 28, 2021 by steve566

[Get Marwood & I]

I wonder how this one would be treated?

[Garystar]

On 5/28/2021 at 9:20 PM, steve566 said:

I’ve always wondered why my Los hombres x 1 has Jean grey telekinetic beam on it while the US Edition doesn’t (and several other foreign publishers have it also).. I know sometimes the foreign publishers recieved 1st draft art work that was later changed for the American Edition but still seen on foreigns..

It’s not just foreign editions which use early drafts. Marvel Milestone XMen 1 has the beam, Marvel Milestone FF 1 has the figure at end of street. 

[Get Marwood & I]

 

Has anyone seen the promised official announcement on this? It's all gone quiet. 

[steve566]

Matt Nelson just talked about it on tales from the flipside on youtube last night, they are continuing to label books the new way.. he said they wanted feedback from the community before making a formal announcement. He discussed grading foreigns (and a growing foreign database) and pulps as two big projects for the future that got pushed back due to the flood of submissions 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 7/20/2021 at 10:36 PM, steve566 said:

Matt Nelson just talked about it on tales from the flipside on youtube last night, they are continuing to label books the new way.. he said they wanted feedback from the community before making a formal announcement. He discussed grading foreigns (and a growing foreign database) and pulps as two big projects for the future that got pushed back due to the flood of submissions 

Thanks Steve. 

[Get Marwood & I]

A recently graded copy of Los 4 Fantasticos #36, posted elsewhere tonight by @gadzukes:

It's a lovely comic.

On the slab label, the main title and issue number is Strange Tales #111, after this original US comic....

...with a little rider underneath to show the actual book title and number:

Because there are now two different comics in the frame, it is not immediately obvious whether the date of 01/65 relates to Strange Tales #111 or Los 4 Fantasticos #36. The book is marked as a 'Mexican Edition' - regular readers of my threads will know why I dislike that term.

If we look at the CGC Verification Page, we see as follows:

The third line down has four fields - Issue, Issue Date, Issue Year and Publisher. The first field (Issue) is the issue number of Strange Tales #111. The remaining three fields are the details of Los 4 Fantasticos #36. Confusing.

Despite being a local publication of Mexico, printed long after Strange Tales #111, the book is designated as the second appearance of Doctor Strange which, of course, it isn't. The reproduced story might be, but the book isn't. Someone may pay money for that, thinking they have a true second appearance. At the very least, the label should say 'reprints the first appearance of....'

We can find the title Los 4 Fantasticos in the CGC Census if we search for it - here are the results:

You'll see that our issue #36 does not feature.

That is because it is listed under the title Strange Tales:

If you select that single entry (#111, not #36), you see the 7.0 graded book above (congratulations Gadzukes, it's the only one graded):

Note the absence in that entry anywhere of the actual comic title or issue number.

I haven't seen any update from Matt, so I am going to email him with a link to this post and ask him again if he will reconsider this strategy, and revert to labeling publications as what they are and not in line with any key original US content which they happen to reproduce. This strategy is confusing, disrespectful and will corrupt census records going forward. It demeans publications which, whilst reprinting key US work, are publications in their own right.

This is my last attempt to head off this disastrous policy, triggered tonight by the sight of Gadzukes book, which I think is a disservice to accuracy and the hobby. 

Gadzukes - sorry to hijack your book mate. Los 4 Fantasticos #36 is a lovely thing - in its own right 

There, I used Sumo Man to emphasise the point. 

[Get Marwood & I]

Email to Matt sent, I'll leave it at that now.

[Qalyar]

I'd like to confirm that my German issues of Black Hole -- helpfully still titled Black Hole -- were labeled in issue order, not in the order of their corresponding US covers. So that's at least one debacle avoided. We'll see how the next batch goes in a couple months, when I submit copies of Agujero Negro, the Spanish republication of Black Hole for grading. I think the big question is going to be whether those books get labeled Agujero Negro (Spanish Edition) or Black Hole (Spanish Edition). At least there's no numbering shenanigans.

I'll echo that the Los 4 Fantasticos situation above is a mess, and shouldn't ever happen that way. Here's hoping Matt is amenable to reevaluating the policy.

[gadzukes]

On 8/18/2021 at 3:07 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

A recently graded copy of Los 4 Fantasticos #36, posted elsewhere by @gadzukes:

It's a lovely comic.

The main label title and number on the slab is Strange Tales #111, after this original US comic....

...with a little rider underneath to show the actual book title and number:

Because there are now two different comics in the frame, it is not immediately obvious whether the date of 01/65 relates to Strange Tales #111 or Los 4 Fantasticos #36. The book is marked as a 'Mexican Edition' - regular readers of my threads will know why I dislike that term.

If we look at the CGC Verification Page, we see as follows:

The third line down has four fields - Issue, Issue Date, Issue Year and Publisher. The first field (Issue) is the issue number of Strange Tales #111. The remaining three fields are the details of Los 4 Fantasticos #36. Confusing.

Despite being a local publication of Mexico, printed long after Strange Tales #111, the book is designated as the second appearance of Doctor Strange which, of course, it isn't. The reproduced story might be, but the book isn't. Someone may pay money for that, thinking they have a true second appearance. At the very least, the label should say 'reprints the first appearance of....'

We can find the title Los 4 Fantasticos in the CGC Census if we search for it - here are the results:

You'll see that our issue #36 does not feature.

That is because it is listed under the title Strange Tales:

If you select that single entry (#111, not #36), you see the 7.0 graded book above (congratulations Gadzukes, it's the only one graded):

Note the absence in that entry anywhere of the actual comic title or issue number.

I haven't seen any update from Matt, so I am going to email him with a link to this post and ask him again if he will reconsider this strategy, and revert to labeling publications as what they are and not in line with any key original US content which they happen to reproduce. This strategy is confusing, disrespectful and will corrupt census records going forward. It demeans publications which, whilst reprinting key US work, are publications in their own right.

This is my last attempt to head off this disastrous policy, triggered tonight by the sight of Gadzukes book, which I think is a disservice to accuracy and the hobby. 

Gadzukes - sorry to hijack your book mate. Los 4 Fantasticos #36 is a lovely thing - in its own right 

There, I used Sumo Man to emphasise the point. 

Thanks for clarifying it for me Marwood.  I actually couldn't find it on the census anywhere until you pointed it out here.  Part of me likes that it's labeled Strange Tales 111, but obviously..... that's not an accurate title for what it really is.  Since the Foreign Comics market is booming, CGC better get this all sorted out before it becomes a quagmire.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 8/18/2021 at 9:05 PM, gadzukes said:

Thanks for clarifying it for me Marwood.  I actually couldn't find it on the census anywhere until you pointed it out here.  Part of me likes that it's labeled Strange Tales 111, but obviously..... that's not an accurate title for what it really is.  Since the Foreign Comics market is booming, CGC better get this all sorted out before it becomes a quagmire.

You sort of prove my point here Gad, in a way. Respectfully, you're an educated, nuanced, experienced comic collector, and you couldn't find it in the census. 

[gadzukes]

On 8/18/2021 at 4:07 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

You sort of prove my point here Gad, in a way. Respectfully, you're an educated, nuanced, experienced comic collector, and you couldn't find it in the census. 

I checked the census under Strange Tales 111 first.... there was the US census.  I scrolled down.... there was the Pence census.  I scrolled down more, expecting to find the Mexican census.... and nothing.

So then  I punched in "Los 4 Fantasticos" and saw some listed there, but not #36 so I figured they just hadn't put it on the census yet.

Very confusing.

Edited August 18, 2021 by gadzukes

[Get Marwood & I]

On 8/18/2021 at 9:18 PM, gadzukes said:

I checked the census under Strange Tales 111 first.... there was the US census.  I scrolled down.... there was the Pence census.  I scrolled down more, expecting to find the Mexican census.... and nothing.

So then  I punched in "Los 4 Fantasticos" and saw some listed there, but not #36 so I figured they just hadn't put it on the census yet.

Very confusing.

Yes, it's not attached to the US Marvel record, but has its own La Prensa record even though there is no La Prensa Strange Tales title. Meanwhile, your book takes a back seat to the debate about how CGC have chosen to name and file it.....

[gadzukes]

On 8/18/2021 at 4:30 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Yes, it's not attached to the US Marvel record, but has its own La Prensa record even though there is no La Prensa Strange Tales title. Meanwhile, your book takes a back seat to the debate about how CGC have chosen to name and file it.....

I may have missed the discussion about this.  Is it in this thread?

Is this "renaming foreign books" a brand new thing?  Did CGC just change their policy?

[Get Marwood & I]

On 8/18/2021 at 9:39 PM, gadzukes said:

I may have missed the discussion about this.  Is it in this thread?

Is this "renaming foreign books" a brand new thing?  Did CGC just change their policy?

There is supposed to be an official announcement on it. It is being discussed on FB and places I don't visit, but the salient points are made in this thread. Have a read. 

[Get Marwood & I]

Matt read the post and has advised that the planned announcement has been pushed back due to other priorities. It does seem from his response that the change will go ahead however, albeit perhaps with some additional tweaks which will no doubt be explained in the announcement when it comes. He did point out that what we see on the census at the moment for slabs like Gadzukes is not the finished design so don't read too much into my earlier illustration - that will change.

I don't support the basic premise of the change myself, I think I've made that fairly clear, so for me the finessing of the strategy is unlikely to make much difference. But there is no point being critical of examples of what is clearly not a finished design, so, I will step back and await the formal communication.

The only other comment I would make at this point is to question the wisdom of launching a new labelling strategy prior to deciding on the final design and communications. It means that submitters of non-US publications which reprint certain US original content will not really know what to expect when their submissions are returned in the interim. But there you go, I'm not in charge.

I've made my case, and it has been heard. So I'll wait for the announcement, have a final moan, and then leave it!

 

 

[steve566]

I might post my most recent foreign slab arrival but I’m afraid it might make your head spin.. i believe CGC is grading a pretty decent amount of foreign books now and everyone I’ve seen is going to the new label for the most part.. the majority of people are happy with the change from what I’m hearing but to each their own.. for someone that collects as many different key comics from different countries it makes the census much easier to navigate.. but that’s my personal opinion; here’s a small taste of my submission

[Get Marwood & I]

On 8/19/2021 at 7:18 PM, steve566 said:

I might post my most recent foreign slab arrival but I’m afraid it might make your head spin

Not at all, your books are wonderful and who am I to complain if you're happy with the labelling of them Steve. My opinion is just one among many and, though I personally believe that factual accuracy and respect for the publication should always win the day - certainly where the world's largest and most trusted third-party grading service is concerned - there are clearly other considerations at play and they have won out on this occasion. You can't win 'em all...