Are prices still climbing or have they eased up a bit??? 43 43

[lou_fine]

On 5/15/2023 at 5:48 AM, buttock said:

On 5/15/2023 at 5:33 AM, Mark Warren said:

I started buying comics in the 1970's, off of spinner racks, and I almost never encountered comics that were essentially perfect, even fresh off the rack. 

Which is why people pay more for 9.8s

 

This would make sense only if grading was objectively accurate, as I believe the crux of his point here is that grading really boils down to nothing more than just a subjective opinion and as such, subject to both human error and condition defects that might not be viewed the same way by all collectors:    

On 5/15/2023 at 5:33 AM, Mark Warren said:

I feel like someday the whole 9.8 fad will collapse and the hobby will collectively realize just how much money it has wasted chasing a subjective and mostly meaningless number ("It's a teeny tiny little microscopic bit better than a 9.6--except when it isn't! And who cares that the 9.6 has better centering!"),

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

On 5/15/2023 at 11:10 PM, Microchip said:

On 5/15/2023 at 7:36 PM, mjoeyoung said:

These books are from 1968, is it really possible that these are the only high grade copies in existence?

 

Huh, the TT#12 there is a single 9.6 copy, and has been for 22 years, and the issue never comes up for sale!!   It's a strong result but not surprising in this era.

The same for issue #13.   The census numbers on these issues are right next to non existent in grade.

Have you considered the possibility that the reason for the low census numbers for these non-key mid-run Teen Titans issues is that most collectors would not consider them to be financially worthwhile to be sent in for grading and slabbing in the first place?  

[lou_fine]

On 6/4/2023 at 12:11 AM, lou_fine said:

Have you considered the possibility that the reason for the low census numbers for these non-key mid-run Teen Titans issues is that most collectors would not consider them to be financially worthwhile to be sent in for grading and slabbing in the first place?  

This kind of reminds me of Iron Man 30, another non-key mid-run issue of a title, which CC was able to auction off for a rather astounding $15K back in 2016 when it was the "only 9.8 in the universe":   

https://www.comicconnect.com/item/689571

Needless to say, when a second 9.8 graded copy showed up after that in 2017, it managed to fetched only $6,300 with a third copy fetching a substantally even lower price than that in 2018.  Not sure what it would go for now that there's 6 CGC 9.8 graded copies of this book in the entire universe.  

Personally, I prefer buying books where I look forward to having additional copies come into the marketplace over time to not only reinforce the price which I had paid for my copy, but also to drive the valuation even higher.  Now, that's clearly a much better senario than buying a highest graded copy of a book and then living in fear that the eventual slabbing of additional copies in equivalent grade will result in the cratering of the valuation for your copy.    

[lou_fine]

On 5/19/2023 at 12:02 AM, Microchip said:

People are paying these silly multiples squarely because of their confidence in the grading provided by CGC, and they're confident in the incremental grading differences.

Exactly how confident can you be in CGC's grading when you see examples like this one here:  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/western/crackajack-funnies-9-file-copy-dell-1939-cgc-vf-nm-90-off-white-pages/a/830-91039.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Grader Notes

Front Cover Writing
Top Back Cover Lite Shadow

Especially when the Grader Notes would make it appear that any kind of CPR work should not have been the reason for this book getting this big bump in grade after making an interim pit stop at 9.6:  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/western/crackajack-funnies-9-file-copy-dell-1939-cgc-nm-mt-98-off-white-to-white-pages/a/40208-81046.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

 

Or even better yet, how about this Church copy of Boy Comics 17 which went from CGC 4.0 all the way up to CGC 9.0 after making an interim pit stop at CGC 7.5:    

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/boy-comics-17-mile-high-pedigree-lev-gleason-1944-cgc-vg-40-white-pages-patriotic-flag-cover-by-charles-biro-rudy-pal/a/12081-31229.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/boy-comics-17-mile-high-pedigree-lev-gleason-1944-cgc-vf-nm-90-white-pages/a/7187-94060.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

[lou_fine]

On 5/19/2023 at 7:38 PM, mjoeyoung said:

What you are describing is a more rigorous grading process. That makes it less art and more science. It also makes the results more reproducible. 

The grading system needs to be reworked to be more rigorous

First thing is to get rid of the 1.8 grade. Good minus is 1.5 and then you have Fair at 1.0 and Poor at 0.5.  There is really no need for an incremental grade here.

At the high end you have to reduce it from 9.0, 9.2, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8, 9.9 and 10 to 9.0, 9.5 and 10.  There is not enough of a real difference to allow for 6 grades.  CGC defines all of the grades from 9.0 to 9.6 as "a very well-preserved collectible."  I agree, so they all get the grade of 9.0.

Less art, more science.

If you really want to improve accuracy and have more science and less art when it comes to grading, maybe what you need to do is to get it back to the way it all started with Overstreet's 3 basic condition grades of only Good, Fine, and Mint.    

Edited June 4, 2023 by lou_fine

[Microchip]

On 6/5/2023 at 1:29 AM, lou_fine said:

Or even better yet, how about this Church copy of Boy Comics 17 which went from CGC 4.0 all the way up to CGC 9.0 after making an interim pit stop at CGC 7.5:    

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/boy-comics-17-mile-high-pedigree-lev-gleason-1944-cgc-vg-40-white-pages-patriotic-flag-cover-by-charles-biro-rudy-pal/a/12081-31229.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/boy-comics-17-mile-high-pedigree-lev-gleason-1944-cgc-vf-nm-90-white-pages/a/7187-94060.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Lol, that example is from 2003/2004 on the boards.  

It's bad, and it's blatant, but it's also very old.  I was just as critical of CGC grading all through the early 2000's, but things have changed, and moved on considerably.    Ok, not including the Promise collection of course .

 

[Microchip]

On 6/5/2023 at 1:29 AM, lou_fine said:

Exactly how confident can you be in CGC's grading when you see examples like this one here:  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/western/crackajack-funnies-9-file-copy-dell-1939-cgc-vf-nm-90-off-white-pages/a/830-91039.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Grader Notes

Front Cover Writing
Top Back Cover Lite Shadow

Especially when the Grader Notes would make it appear that any kind of CPR work should not have been the reason for this book getting this big bump in grade after making an interim pit stop at 9.6:  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/western/crackajack-funnies-9-file-copy-dell-1939-cgc-nm-mt-98-off-white-to-white-pages/a/40208-81046.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

 

Or even better yet, how about this Church copy of Boy Comics 17 which went from CGC 4.0 all the way up to CGC 9.0 after making an interim pit stop at CGC 7.5:    

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/boy-comics-17-mile-high-pedigree-lev-gleason-1944-cgc-vg-40-white-pages-patriotic-flag-cover-by-charles-biro-rudy-pal/a/12081-31229.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/boy-comics-17-mile-high-pedigree-lev-gleason-1944-cgc-vf-nm-90-white-pages/a/7187-94060.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Geepers, I wonder why is it always HA books that end up in these conversations 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Microchip

[Courageous Cat]

I gave up getting pissed about their grading. I had a book come back a 7.0 and clearly it isn't below an 8.5 but I was always told, "buy the book, not the grade"

[lizards2]

On 6/4/2023 at 12:11 AM, lou_fine said:

Have you considered the possibility that the reason for the low census numbers for these non-key mid-run Teen Titans issues is that most collectors would not consider them to be financially worthwhile to be sent in for grading and slabbing in the first place?  

That would never cross my mind. Take one spin through a general auction or eBay, and you will see hundreds, thousands, maybe tens of thousands of pure carp encased in slabs.

[lou_fine]

On 5/24/2023 at 7:42 PM, Moondog said:

When the 10 point scale was first discussed in 1999 in Baltimore, I proffered a similar scale.  My goal was to have 9.0 as Near Mint.  9.5 for NM/M and 10.0 for Mint.  The consensus was that this was too easy to follow and not complicated enough.  The average collector would be able to understand it and the insiders would have no advantage.  So it was nixed and the current scale adopted.

OK, none of this was spoken out loud, but in essence this was what happened.

Good to know and very interesting to see what really goes on behind the scene when the big decisions are being made that affects us all here. 

Rather ironic that they would come up with a grading system convoluted and arbitrary enough so that not only would the average collector not be able to easily follow and understand it, but seemingly also their own graders on a consistent basis.  

Then again, I imagine that just might have been their plan all along as it allows them to never be wrong and also help to ensure that books are resumbitted on a consistent basis by collectors who hope that they can have the CGC grading hammer fall in their favor when it comes to their turn at the grading roulette wheel.   

[lou_fine]

On 6/1/2023 at 8:08 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

To be clear, I absolutely recognize UF #4 as a key.  But it's an ultra-modern key.  I happily paid a whopping $365 for my 9.8, and I'm happy to see how its value has grown.  But this should never be a five-figure book, and I would be very worried for anyone buying in at that kind of price.

The question is whether your copy of UF 4 that you paid a whopping $365 for is a variant edition or just one of those regular edition copies?  

Especially since it's only the variant edition of this book that is selling for this rather ridiculous 5-figure amount.  

[lou_fine]

On 5/30/2023 at 7:56 PM, MAR1979 said:

1/2 in 9.8

Don't you absolutely love the CGC grading when a fugly looking completely miswrapped off-center copy like this book here can get a 9.8 grade. 

Being a long time collector, I still remember the days when collectors would shoved fugly looking books like this one here right back onto the shelves of the LCS as fast as they could before they do permanent damage to their eyeballs.  Especially when even a blind collector like Mr. Magoo would even be able to see books with this kind of clear visual defect from way across the entire convention hall.  

And yet CGC has shall we say "improve" and fine-tuned their grading standards over time so that it clearly does not reflect the grading standards of the collecting base prior to the arrival of CGC.  I guess it really shouldn't be much of a surprise that if you look at the Graders Notes for HG books nowadays, it's almost all entirely about those additional revenue generating defects such as small spine ticks, creases, bends, etc. that oftentimes you can only see when the book is held up at just the correct angle to the light.  And yet they turn a blind eye to eye wrenching defects such as the one that's clearly visible on the WW 180 above.    

[MAR1979]

On 6/5/2023 at 3:42 AM, lou_fine said:

Don't you absolutely love the CGC grading when a fugly looking completely miswrapped off-center copy like this book here can get a 9.8 grade. 

Being a long time collector, I still remember the days when collectors would shoved fugly looking books like this one here right back onto the shelves of the LCS as fast as they could before they do permanent damage to their eyeballs.  Especially when even a blind collector like Mr. Magoo would even be able to see books with this kind of clear visual defect from way across the entire convention hall.  

And yet CGC has shall we say "improve" and fine-tuned their grading standards over time so that it clearly does not reflect the grading standards of the collecting base prior to the arrival of CGC.  I guess it really shouldn't be much of a surprise that if you look at the Graders Notes for HG books nowadays, it's almost all entirely about those additional revenue generating defects such as small spine ticks, creases, bends, etc. that oftentimes you can only see when the book is held up at just the correct angle to the light.  And yet they turn a blind eye to eye wrenching defects such as the one that's clearly visible on the WW 180 above.    

Hyperbole much ;) Yeah the wrap is a little off but not egregious. Not only is the book 9.8 but it's a very strong copy from a technical perspective. I purchased it raw and self submitted, so thanks for the personal attack even if it was not your intention. I do challenge you to find a nicer copy of the issue.

Great if you have the life expectancy and money to only purchase DC Silver Age books that are perfect to your eyes. As I realize I won't live forever nor have vast wealth;  I learned a long time ago that when collecting Silver Age DC's one can not be picky on non-Bat books due to being almost non-existent in high-grade, unlike with Marvel books that usually have vast quantities.

P.S. this post does apply to 1968-1969 Silver Age - please ignore my signature this time.

Edited June 5, 2023 by MAR1979

[HotKey]

On 6/4/2023 at 11:53 AM, lou_fine said:

If you really want to improve accuracy and have more science and less art when it comes to grading, maybe what you need to do is to get it back to the way it all started with Overstreet's 3 basic condition grades of only Good, Fine, and Mint.    

I still mostly grade this way on anything I sell and its the same way I did it in the 90s. Low/mid/high grade with a subcategory of low/mid/high in each gives you 9 different grades you can assign and I haven't had anyone complain that my grades were wrong in over 2 years. The closest I will get on some moderns is calling them "submission candidates" if I can't find any visible flaw.

Absolutely nothing is wrong with grading the condition of a comic as a "higher mid grade" and it removes all of the potential conflict from, "You called this a 7.0 when its obviously a 6.5!" If they want more specific than that, send them multiple pics or a video and let them assign their own number grade.

[whomerjay]

On 6/5/2023 at 7:35 AM, MAR1979 said:

Hyperbole much ;) Yeah the wrap is a little off but not egregious. Not only is the book 9.8 but it's a very strong copy from a technical perspective. I purchased it raw and self submitted, so thanks for the personal attack even if it was not your intention. I do challenge you to find a nicer copy of the issue.

Great if you have the life expectancy and money to only purchase DC Silver Age books that are perfect to your eyes. As I realize I won't live forever nor have vast wealth;  I learned a long time ago that when collecting Silver Age DC's one can not be picky due non-Bat books being almost non-existent in high-grade, unlike with Marvel books that usually have vast quantities.

P.S. this post does apply to 1968-1969 Silver Age - please ignore my signature this time.

Hyperbole yes wrt this particular book because the wrap is annoying but not egregious and everything else looks great consistent with the pedigree.

But I agree with the overall point and I do feel o/c and other QP issues deserve deductions. I realize CGC does not deduct so I impose my own penalty in terms of what I’ll pay. Not even considering 9.8 or 9.6 SA or newer with bad wraps as sellers want close to GPA for those grades. 

GA, it depends on the book. All things equal a bad wrap in GA still has to sell for less. At times I’ll accept lesser page quality (even a rare LTOWP) before a bad wrap.

I would also agree that the decisions made regarding what flaws dictate how much a deduction appear to be influenced by profit motives, the history of grading standards be damned. 

 

[comicdiablo]

On 5/12/2023 at 7:17 PM, Beige said:

Worst ebay quarter for 8 years - by a mile.

 

Unless they are keys - the comic items are stone cold.

 

Needs a good run of movies to make comics 'talked about' again.

I was thinking the same thing. I think that Avengers: Infinity War, Avengers: Endgame, and then Spider-Man: No Way Home had comic sales at a boiling point, but since then the heat has been simmering.

Others have mentioned a potential economic recession is brewing. However, I have seen a lot of debate about if and when this will happen soon, and how deep or shallow of a recession it will be.

[mjoeyoung]

On 6/5/2023 at 8:30 AM, comicdiablo said:

I was thinking the same thing. I think that Avengers: Infinity War, Avengers: Endgame, and then Spider-Man: No Way Home had comic sales at a boiling point, but since then the heat has been simmering.

Others have mentioned a potential economic recession is brewing. However, I have seen a lot of debate about if and when this will happen soon, and how deep or shallow of a recession it will be.

"Since 1955, there has never been a quarter with average inflation above 4 percent and unemployment below 5 percent that was not followed by a recession within the next two years."

"We therefore believe that the likelihood that the Fed achieves a soft landing in the economy is low."

History Suggests a High Chance of Recession over the Next 24 Months from March of 2022.

  this time is DIFFERENT! 

[MAR1979]

On 6/5/2023 at 8:16 AM, whomerjay said:

Hyperbole yes wrt this particular book because the wrap is annoying but not egregious and everything else looks great consistent with the pedigree.

I would also agree that the decisions made regarding what flaws dictate how much a deduction appear to be influenced by profit motives, the history of grading standards be damned. 

 

I have a dim recollection from my youth of high gloss on a cover being a selling point

Edited June 5, 2023 by MAR1979

[Microchip]

The current clink auctions has just finished for me.   A full strike out on my bids.   Some of the books I could have chased further, but it's always becomes a mental equation at that point about whether the other guy would have kept going as well 

Some soft results in the $3k-10k range of books, but I keep seeing a lot of fluctuation as a general rule in this price bracket.   The differences in one book to another (same grade) is often 1,000's at a time.

Overall, no ease in sight.

[Aman619]

On 6/6/2023 at 10:06 PM, Microchip said:

The current clink auctions has just finished for me.   A full strike out on my bids.   Some of the books I could have chased further, but it's always becomes a mental equation at that point about whether the other guy would have kept going as well 

Some soft results in the $3k-10k range of books, but I keep seeing a lot of fluctuation as a general rule in this price bracket.   The differences in one book to another (same grade) is often 1,000's at a time.

Overall, no ease in sight.

I hate that position.  you dont want to keep bidding and maybe win it at too much.  but also feels bad letting the other guy win it a the price you would be happy to pay either. grrrrrr  But, depending on its scarcity, and the scarcity of buyers for it, with that buyer no longer bidding next time , you will have less competition!  

maybe...