Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION - A Must Watch! 18 18

[WolverineX]

On 8/29/2021 at 1:00 PM, southern cross said:

So it took a rare and iconic comic book like Action 1 decades and decades to hit $1 million 

But a video game jumps from $10k to $2 million in just three short years.

That gives me pause.

exactly. If that doesn't seem manipulated to you , then you are in on it. 

[jaybuck43]

Dan, I can tell you, I am a lawyer, and in the US there are dozens of rules relating to disclosure. Maybe it’s different in Canada. But regardless, dealing with a US company triggers US rules. You’ve got GAAP accounting rules, SEC regulations, FTC regulations, and state laws. 
 

I can tell you, I’m not saying you did anything wrong, but the fact that you consulted VGA and taught them information, while at the same or similar time 1) weren’t identified as an employee of the company and 2) were submitting items for encapsulation, are more than enough to open a case of conflict of interest. And the fact that they engaged in such activity would make me distrust their opinion.  Here’s why. VGA comes to you unsure of how to authenticate certain games. You are an expert of authenticating these games. They ask your advice but don’t hire you for whatever reason. Now I know you’re not unscrupulous but let’s pretend you are. You have a bunch of open box games but you know how to reseal them. If you can prove the seal is authentic it makes the open box games 50x more valuable. So when they ask your advice you tell them that the authentic seal includes the way you resealed it. They don’t know any better right? That’s why they asked your opinion! So now, VGA is under the opinion that the submissions you send in are legit, grade then accordingly and you make a fortune.  It would be like Litch being able to determine restoration on his own books. It’s why Cgc employees are barred from buying or selling books commercially, whether encapsulated or not.

[Aman619]

Why?  Well yeah as stated it does sound too fast.  But more like Wata and these games as a market were born at a time of enormous amounts of liquid cash and the height of acceptance of geeky collectibles. 
 

action 1 has been collected for let’s say 60 years. After 10 years one sold for a ridiculous 2k. The price of a car. Who can say what it would sell for if comics just started slabbing in an era of 6M baseball cards. One could argue that comics long history and wide consumer collecting base built over time has restrained prices. Look at the shock we feel at what new money is willing to pay right now!!  They are not interested in a slow rise in values, just paying a little more than GPA highs like we are. They have the cash and just want it.  

Edited August 29, 2021 by Aman619
Cash for dash

[COI]

On 8/29/2021 at 1:04 PM, Wolverinex said:

exactly. If that doesn't seem manipulated to you , then you are in on it. 

Really? So putting aside the contradictory idea that you can be involved in manipulating something and at the same time not think there's manipulation going on, the two possible positions are, you either believe there is manipulation or you're in on it? There's no other possibilities? 

I'm with you guys that the prices are bonkers, and I can't wrap my head around what we've been seeing across various collectible markets in the last 18-24 months. I'm also skeptical about a lot of the records as well, and some degree of manipulation wouldn't shock me. But to simply assume that because Action 1 took decades to hit the 1 million mark, any other collectible would need decades to hit a million legitimately, is a bit silly because it doesn't take into account the myriad at factors at play today that were not at play during Action 1's lifecycle as a collectible. You know, small things like the internet, e-commerce, digital capital, grading companies, etc.

 

[jimjum12]

On 8/29/2021 at 1:27 PM, Aman619 said:

Why?  Well yeah as stated it does sound too fast.  But more like Wata and these games as a market were born at a time of enormous amounts of liquid cash and the height of acceptance of geeky collectibles. 
 

action 1 has been collected for let’s say 60 years. After 10 years one sold for a ridiculous 2k. The price of a car. Who can say what it would sell for if comics just started slabbing in an era of 6M baseball cards. One could argue that comics long history and wide consumer collecting base built over time has restrained prices. Look at the shock we feel at what new money is willing to pay right now!!  They are not interested in a slow rise in values, just paying a little more than GPA highs like we are. They have the cash and just want it.  

... you forgot one thing, multi million dollar offers for Action Comics 1 began being DECLINED  over 2 decades ago. No one is mentioning the HUNDREDS of examples of million dollar sales that have occurred in the Coin hobby over the last 30 years. Pardon my poop mouth, but a million dollar sale ain't *spoon*. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Bronty]

On 8/29/2021 at 1:27 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Dan, I can tell you, I am a lawyer, and in the US there are dozens of rules relating to disclosure. Maybe it’s different in Canada. But regardless, dealing with a US company triggers US rules. You’ve got GAAP accounting rules, SEC regulations, FTC regulations, and state laws. 
 

I can tell you, I’m not saying you did anything wrong, but the fact that you consulted VGA and taught them information, while at the same or similar time 1) weren’t identified as an employee of the company and 2) were submitting items for encapsulation, are more than enough to open a case of conflict of interest. And the fact that they engaged in such activity would make me distrust their opinion.  Here’s why. VGA comes to you unsure of how to authenticate certain games. You are an expert of authenticating these games. They ask your advice but don’t hire you for whatever reason. Now I know you’re not unscrupulous but let’s pretend you are. You have a bunch of open box games but you know how to reseal them. If you can prove the seal is authentic it makes the open box games 50x more valuable. So when they ask your advice you tell them that the authentic seal includes the way you resealed it. They don’t know any better right? That’s why they asked your opinion! So now, VGA is under the opinion that the submissions you send in are legit, grade then accordingly and you make a fortune.  It would be like Litch being able to determine restoration on his own books. It’s why Cgc employees are barred from buying or selling books commercially, whether encapsulated or not.

Vga doesn’t grade open box games .

I’ll defer to your expertise but I’m not sure why they would be subject to GAAP or SEC regulations ?

Many private companies account on a compilation basis (making gaap irrelevant).

   
And the company is not publicly listed so why would SEC rules matter? 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Bronty

[jaybuck43]

On 8/29/2021 at 1:47 PM, Bronty said:

Vga doesn’t grade open box games .

I’ll defer to your expertise but I’m not sure why they would be subject to GAAP or SEC regulations ?

Many private companies account on a compilation basis (making gaap irrelevant).

   
And the company is not publicly listed so why would SEC rules matter? 

Sec regulations apply to all applicable companies, regardless of trading practice. Private companies must still abide by sec regs and the sec regularly goes after private companies. 

[jimjum12]

On 8/29/2021 at 2:02 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Sec regulations apply to all applicable companies, regardless of trading practice. Private companies must still abide by sec regs and the sec regularly goes after private companies. 

Just curious... what would the definition be of an "applicable company" ? GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Bronty]

On 8/29/2021 at 2:02 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Sec regulations apply to all applicable companies, regardless of trading practice. Private companies must still abide by sec regs and the sec regularly goes after private companies. 

Yeah I misunderstood what you wrote earlier.   All you said was US company, US rules.   Well sure, of course, no

one can argue that.   My point was public Corp more rules private Corp less rules.   

[COI]

On 8/29/2021 at 1:27 PM, jaybuck43 said:

 I can tell you, I’m not saying you did anything wrong, but the fact that you consulted VGA and taught them information, while at the same or similar time 1) weren’t identified as an employee of the company and 2) were submitting items for encapsulation, are more than enough to open a case of conflict of interest. And the fact that they engaged in such activity would make me distrust their opinion. 

Is this dissimilar from how CGC got started? That's a genuine question, not rhetorical. Weren't there a bunch of dealers circling CGC as consultants in its earliest days?

[COI]

On 8/29/2021 at 1:42 PM, jimjum12 said:

... you forgot one thing, multi million dollar offers for Action Comics 1 began being DECLINED  over 2 decades ago. No one is mentioning the HUNDREDS of examples of million dollar sales that have occurred in the Coin hobby over the last 30 years. Pardon my poop mouth, but a million dollar sale ain't *spoon*. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Agreed. A collectible hitting the million dollar mark in a public sale, while impressive, is an arbitrary landmark. An Action 1 or Detective 27 could have, theoretically, hit that mark a decade or two earlier under the right circumstances. And that's before the internet and certified grading, which accelerated the cycle. 

[Domo Arigato]

On 8/27/2021 at 9:46 AM, manetteska said:

@Domo Arigato (if you are available) -

Ignoring the video completely, two questions to help clarify ("educate"):

1. Do you believe there is shenanigans in the graded video game market?

2. Do you believe there is shenanigans in the graded comic market?

Always happy to answer a question from someone who doesn't appear to have an obvious agenda.

Both questions have the same answer.......yes.

And to take the answer a bit further.......I think all collectible hobbies involving money have shenanigans being carried out.  Even if there isn't huge money involved in them.  Decades ago, before the comic market became a huge money business, do you think sellers were color touching or trimming books to try to eke out a few more dollars?  And as the money increases, so do the shenanigans.  

Some in here, in an attempt to try to bolster their own argument and/or agenda.....will twist that answer into my saying that since it's happening in one hobby, then it's ok in another hobby.  That's not what I'm saying at all, and it's a weak tactic used by someone with an empty quiver.

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of people actively participating in a hobby......and doing business with companies,.....where obvious and proven shenanigans have been going on for decades.  Then they come into this thread clutching their pearls and gnashing their teeth over a video that suggests its going on in another hobby.

And, you didn't ask, but for full disclosure I'll also give a bit of my background in the videogame market.  The person who started this thread was making posts with false information about my background earlier (which are now pulled, but I have copies of all of them I can provide in PM if desired).  Strange behavior for a thread "supposedly" made to point out dishonesty from others.  Should he continue to do that, I'll simply refer him back to this post to show what truthful information looks like.

I've been playing video games since the 70's across various platforms......Pong, Atari 2600, Colecovision, Ti-99/4a, Commodore 64, Apple IIe, Playstation, Playstation 2, Playstation 3, Xbox 360, and PC.

I've still got all of those open box and loose cartidges/disks in my collection, but didn't start collecting sealed game until the mid 2000's.  Not for investing, but because I wanted to collect sealed copies of games I liked.  I already had opened copies to play, so I just wanted these for my collection.  I had known about VGA grading since the early 2010's....and always figured someday I'd have my sealed games graded and encased by them....but, coming from a mainly comic collecting background, I never did like the VGA grading scale.

When WATA came along, it piqued my interest again in getting some of my games graded.  Their grading scale was almost exactly like the CGC grading scale.  I also liked their holder and their website was much better.  So 2 years ago, I reached out to Bronty to get his opinion on which grading company he thought was better.  Bronty has always been very kind and helpful when I've had questions.....and it may surprise people in here.....but he did not push for me to send my games to WATA at all.  I told him I was leaning towards WATA and what my goals were.  He told me the different strengths that each company has and basically told me I couldn't really go wrong with either company.  And based on what I know now, his points were spot on.  I chose Wata and was very happy with the product I received back.

I then spent the last 2 years digging into the graded game hobby and doing research on it.  I belong to numerous game collecting groups on Facebook, read game collecting blogs and newsletters as well as every article about the hobby I come across or that's pointed out to me.  It's why a lot of this stuff is common knowledge to me, and to anyone else involved in the hobby enough to actually read about it.  Some people don't like those two words.  My only suggestion to them is read more, because the information is there for those that are interested in the hobby and not just how much money they can suck out of it.

 

[valiantman]

On 8/29/2021 at 6:56 AM, LearnedHand said:

On 8/25/2021 at 3:54 PM, valiantman said:

No randomness.  Purposeful collecting of issues #2 through #300, and being unable to obtain a full copy of #1, having a legal ownership in 1% of a real copy... versus issues #2 through #300 and nothing else.

It's not complicated. 

X

X + 1% of Y (when Y is the key aspect in your goal of collecting X, even though you can't touch Y in person.)

Curious:  do you see yourself as a comic book hobbyist/collector?  Or a commodities gambler?  

Collecting has its limits.  There are titles that can't be completed with a realistic budget for the majority of collectors (myself included).

I don't see any significant difference between an investor who rarely sells and a collector, because both are "accumulating" what they like without planning to sell.

An investor who can flip things for profit as if they never had any personal significance is something different.

A collector who would sell $100 comics for cover price because they don't care about money is a figment of this hobby's imagination.

If a collector wants to get more than cover price for a comic book, some part of the collector is an investor.

If an investor wants to hold onto things even after they've become quite profitable, some part of the investor is a collector.

Edited August 29, 2021 by valiantman

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 8/29/2021 at 1:02 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Sec regulations apply to all applicable companies, regardless of trading practice. Private companies must still abide by sec regs and the sec regularly goes after private companies. 

And OSHA applies to all trades..   

[kav]

On 8/29/2021 at 11:58 AM, Domo Arigato said:

why a lot of this stuff is common knowledge to me

Restriction fragment length polymorphism is the basis of DNA analysis.  Thi is common knowledge to me because I'm a biologist.  When talking to others about the subject though, I do not consider it common knowledge to them, and make sure I elucidate what I am talking about.

[Domo Arigato]

On 8/27/2021 at 9:51 AM, skypinkblu said:

Just to stop any rumors...the thread was locked because 26 posts were removed. Most of those posts were just hidden because they quoted posts that needed to be removed.  Nothing was removed because it related to the topic, just stuff that belonged in a schoolyard.

 

For further clarification.....30 posts were removed.  

The reason I know this....and I'm not sure if it was intentional.....but all of the posts ended up in my "Your Posts Removed by Moderators" section......including the pulled posts made by other members that contained lies about me.

If that wasn't supposed to happen, it might be something that needs to be brought to an Admins attention.

 

[Domo Arigato]

On 8/29/2021 at 2:08 PM, kav said:

Restriction fragment length polymorphism is the basis of DNA analysis.  Thi is common knowledge to me because I'm a biologist.  When talking to others about the subject though, I do not consider it common knowledge to them, and make sure I elucidate what I am talking about.

I'm not sticking my nose into your polymorphism or complaining about it.  If I wanted to do that, I'd educate myself on it.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Domo Arigato

[kav]

On 8/29/2021 at 12:16 PM, Domo Arigato said:

I'm not sticking my nose into your polymorphism or complaining about it.  If I wanted to, I'd educate myself on it.

 

 

My point is I have issue with what you consider to be 'common knowledge'.

[COI]

On 8/29/2021 at 2:58 PM, Domo Arigato said:

 

And to take the answer a bit further.......I think all collectible hobbies involving money have shenanigans being carried out.  Even if there isn't huge money involved in them.  Decades ago, before the comic market became a huge money business, do you think sellers were color touching or trimming books to try to eke out a few more dollars?  And as the money increases, so do the shenanigans.  

 

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of people actively participating in a hobby......and doing business with companies,.....where obvious and proven shenanigans have been going on for decades.  Then they come into this thread clutching their pearls and gnashing their teeth over a video that suggests its going on in another hobby.

 

I then spent the last 2 years digging into the graded game hobby and doing research on it.  I belong to numerous game collecting groups on Facebook, read game collecting blogs and newsletters as well as every article about the hobby I come across or that's pointed out to me.  It's why a lot of this stuff is common knowledge to me, and to anyone else involved in the hobby enough to actually read about it.  Some people don't like those two words.  My only suggestion to them is read more, because the information is there for those that are interested in the hobby and not just how much money they can suck out of it.

 

The combination of these points encapsulates my biggest problem with the video and the reactions it garnered here among seasoned collectors, provoking me to crawl out from under my rock. None of it has to do with a denial that there are conflicts of interest, and none of it constitutes a defense of Halperin, Heritage, or any of the market tactics being discussed.

It goes back to what I said about the target audience for the video. It's a video from someone with no experience with graded collectibles, for an audience with no experience with graded collectibles. And before anyone goes nuts, that not some sort of ad hominem or appeal to authority, because I did take the time to watch the video with an open mind and I did evaluate the arguments being made on their own merits. 

I'll say it again: Karl did a great job, particularly for an "outsider", of gathering data. But the very fact that he COULD, as an "outsider", get that data actually weakens his argument, because it makes it far less likely that people spending 10s and 100s of thousands of dollars are having the wool pulled over their eyes in the way that he tries to prove. Which, in turn, makes it hard for me to understand what the purpose of this video is, other than feeding the outrage machine that is the internet, nor does it make a great case for why the ends justify the means when there are ethical issues with this kind of "journalism" in itself. 

 

[Domo Arigato]

On 8/29/2021 at 2:20 PM, COI said:

It goes back to what I said about the target audience for the video. It's a video from someone with no experience with graded collectibles, for an audience with no experience with graded collectibles.

This!

On 8/29/2021 at 2:20 PM, COI said:

I'll say it again: Karl did a great job, particularly for an "outsider", of gathering data. But the very fact that he COULD, as an "outsider", get that data actually weakens his argument, because it makes it far less likely that people spending 10s and 100s of thousands of dollars are having the wool pulled over their eyes in the way that he tries to prove.

And this!

The knowledge is there.  As you mentioned, Karl had no prior experience in the market, and yet he found the information.  It's there and available to those who want it.  And to those interested, it's common knowledge.