Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION - A Must Watch! 18 18

[Roger66]

On 9/3/2021 at 1:07 PM, Bronty said:

I totally respect that, nothing wrong with that viewpoint at all.     I see speculation.   What I don’t see is manipulation.    I hope people appreciate the difference.   Buying something because you think it will be valuable - there’s nothing wrong with that.    Being somehow taken advantage of - a totally different thing.     

Agreed.  I find this whole thread somehow off-putting.  This is video games we are talking about not a home for one's family, medicine or food.  Greed and avarice is at play here no doubt and everyone participating in this particular market - buyer, seller and advertiser are all guilty to some degree IMO.  Guilty of what?  Anything from being naïve all the way to perhaps a felony. Until and if an independent authority or auditor investigates this - it is has to remain conjecture, speculation and assumptions in our minds.  Justice via the internet is a dangerous tool because its' blazing eye' only needs to focus on you and your livelihood to understand how mob rule works.  My lousy-2-cents. 

[Bronty]

On 9/3/2021 at 1:19 PM, Roger66 said:

Off-putting

Perhaps that’s because this thread is exhausting.   It shows what someone I know called the asymmetry of bullcrap  .   Ie it takes an order if magnitude greater energy to dispel bullcrap than it does to create bullcrap.   
 

On top of that, the more intellectually lazy or gullible a person is the more likely they are to just believe bullcrap  at face value instead of asking questions and thinking critically.   
 

So then the misinformation gains, as you say,  a well intentioned mob which believes the bullcrap and feels righteous and justified in its crusade when in fact the mob is what is perpetrating harm through spreading the misinformation.   
 

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Bronty

[MetalPSI]

A lot of you people don't venture into the WC much, eh?

[comicwiz]

On 9/3/2021 at 1:38 PM, Bronty said:

On top of that, the more intellectually lazy or gullible a person is the more likely they are to just believe bullcrap  at face value instead of asking questions and thinking critically.   

Isn't that the whole point of trying to make people aware of the allegations of misconduct? So they can decide themselves how to put those value gains in such a short time in the right context?

If there's anything you should be critically questioning is the President of a grading company offering a value opinion, and putting a video game in the same discussion and value context of an Action 1.

It's one thing to say the guys out of his mind for saying such a thing, but when you understand what's been happening to move the price up in an unjustified manner, and in ways to pull the wool over people's eyes, shouldn't you direct your concerns towards what's been going on, rather than calling anyone questioning this irresponsible?

And I'm not obtuse, you clearly want this all to go away - I get it. You've made this abundantly clear. But you've gone from casually downplaying it to casting aspersions toward anyone that's calling it like it is.

If you think stamping your feet, and raising your arms in resignation on these boards is going to make this all stop, I'm here to tell you that this has become bigger than you, or me, or anyone here to be able to stop this from developing further. They brought this on themselves, and continuing to defend it is a bad look that will only look worse over time.

Edited September 3, 2021 by comicwiz

[COI]

On 9/3/2021 at 1:38 PM, Bronty said:

Perhaps that’s because this thread is exhausting.   It shows what someone I know called the asymmetry of bullcrap  .   Ie it takes an order if magnitude greater energy to dispel bullcrap than it does to create bullcrap.   
 

On top of that, the more intellectually lazy or gullible a person is the more likely they are to just believe bullcrap  at face value instead of asking questions and thinking critically.   
 

So then the misinformation gains, as you say,  a well intentioned mob which believes the bullcrap and feels righteous and justified in its crusade when in fact the mob is what is perpetrating harm through spreading the misinformation.   
 

 

I wrote up a post about the "where there's smoke, there's fire" idiom that people throw around in these situations entirely too much, but then the boards pooped out and I lost it.

"Where there's smoke, there's fire" is an obsolete piece of conventional wisdom on the internet. The internet, and more specifically social media, is sort of analogous to the invention of the smoke machine. When virtually everyone has a platform to speak, and access to an ocean of data that can be interpreted or cherry-picked to bolster any argument or construct a narrative that will pass if it's merely plausible, it's not hard to create smoke. More than that, it's incentivized. 

So combine this with the "asymmetry of bullcrap", and you get the current environment where people are incentivized to shoot first and ask questions later, generating tons of smoke as they go, resulting in most casual observers going "where there's smoke, there's fire". And because analyzing and refuting claims is much more difficult than making claims, both intellectually and in terms of the time it takes, most people simply won't be interested in the process either because their mind is made up, they're not invested enough to care, or, by the time the smoke clears, they've moved on to some other controversy. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by COI

[Domo Arigato]

On 9/3/2021 at 8:05 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

 

It's getting ready to rain here.

 

 

[Domo Arigato]

On 9/3/2021 at 12:01 PM, Roger66 said:

Man O' Man if I had to spend 250K (assuming it was sitting in my bank) within 24 hours and you asked me for a detailed list of what I would spend it on - I can promise you this of the potential 10,000+ objects-things I would include in my list - a sealed video game(s) would never make my cut.     Perhaps I am showing my age and/or ignorance here but I just don't see any future upside to this suddenly if not insanely highly valued and now 'questionable to some' collectible. It feels as if hysteria & mania is driving this particular market with a loyal mob in tow. Only time can prove me wrong. My lousy-2-cents. 

"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes.  But the half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor." - Neil Gaiman 

Pose the same question to a video game collector who has no interest in comic books. 

Where do you think comics will be on his list of 10,000+ objects?

I could take your response and basically paste it in for their words and it would make sense.  Spending money on a hobby that collects cartoon drawings on paper.....and some people are paying millions for them??  And within the last year on many of them....prices have doubled......tripled......or more????  They'd have a different opinion of who is the "half-wit" and who is the "emperor".

 

On 9/3/2021 at 12:19 PM, Roger66 said:

Agreed.  I find this whole thread somehow off-putting.  This is video games we are talking about not a home for one's family, medicine or food.  Greed and avarice is at play here no doubt and everyone participating in this particular market - buyer, seller and advertiser are all guilty to some degree IMO.  Guilty of what?  Anything from being naïve all the way to perhaps a felony. Until and if an independent authority or auditor investigates this - it is has to remain conjecture, speculation and assumptions in our minds.  Justice via the internet is a dangerous tool because its' blazing eye' only needs to focus on you and your livelihood to understand how mob rule works.  My lousy-2-cents. 

Sometimes I wonder if people are still capable of looking at things from the other sides viewpoint.

These exact same things can (and have) been said about comic books.  

"This is comic books we are talking about, not a home for one's family, medicine or food.  Greed and avarice is at play here no doubt and everyone participating in this particular market - buyer, seller, and advertiser are all guilty to some degree IMO."

That sentence is just as accurate.  And sadly, I'm beginning to think I'm one of only a few people in here that can see it....or at least is willing to admit it.

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Domo Arigato

[COI]

On 9/3/2021 at 8:34 AM, comicwiz said:

Covers some of the glaring misdirection and narratives to downplay the scandal, as well as concrete examples of breaching statutes/laws - worth a watch

 

At 25:00 to 35:00 roughly, you can see how his argument is poorly thought out.

Karl essentially says he's not saying Heritage is shill bidding because he can't prove that they're shill bidding, but that he mentions it in the video to "keep it in mind".

Then a few minutes later he explains that the thrust of his "market manipulation" allegations are that a speculative bubble is being created. Direct quote, starting at 28:08:

raise the value enough to where investors see that and start buying in in order to make profit, okay, so that's how you create a speculative bubble. At this point, when the bubble is in full swing - and I believe it is - you don't need to shill bid anymore , none of those processes need to happen anymore, because you already have investors coming in; you already have big money coming in, investors coming in, spending big money on these games...the shill bidding and stuff happens way earlier in the process; that's the stuff that kicks things into high gear. 

So to summarize, he's not saying Heritage shill bids, because he can't prove any shill bidding, but the entire argument that there is market manipulation depends on the assumption of shill bidding.

And this is just from 2 minutes of this 2 hour conversation. 

How is it NOT clear that these are bad arguments?

[Domo Arigato]

On 9/3/2021 at 1:26 PM, comicwiz said:

Isn't that the whole point of trying to make people aware of the allegations of misconduct? So they can decide themselves how to put those value gains in such a short time in the right context?

If there's anything you should be critically questioning is the President of a grading company offering a value opinion, and putting a video game in the same discussion and value context of an Action 1.

It's one thing to say the guys out of his mind for saying such a thing, but when you understand what's been happening to move the price up in an unjustified manner, and in ways to pull the wool over people's eyes, shouldn't you direct your concerns towards what's been going on, rather than calling anyone questioning this irresponsible?

And I'm not obtuse, you clearly want this all to go away - I get it. You've made this abundantly clear. But you've gone from casually downplaying it to casting aspersions toward anyone that's calling it like it is.

If you think stamping your feet, and raising your arms in resignation on these boards is going to make this all stop, I'm here to tell you that this has become bigger than you, or me, or anyone here to be able to stop this from developing further. They brought this on themselves, and continuing to defend it is a bad look that will only look worse over time.

Disagree.

This is going to have as much long lasting impact as the HUGE scandals previously did in the comic market.....or the card market.......or the art market......or any other number collectible markets out there.

These two guys will continue to flail their arms and shout from the rooftops to gain as many clicks and as much of their 15 minutes as they can......and then they'll go away and everything will continue as it has......just like it did in all of the other hobbies.

 

[Roger66]

On 9/3/2021 at 5:20 PM, Domo Arigato said:

Pose the same question to a video game collector who has no interest in comic books. 

Where do you think comics will be on his list of 10,000+ objects?

I could take your response and basically paste it in for their words and it would make sense.  Spending money on a hobby that collects cartoon drawings on paper.....and some people are paying millions for them??  And within the last year on many of them....prices have doubled......tripled......or more????  They'd have a different opinion of who is the "half-wit" and who is the "emperor".

 

Sometimes I wonder if people are still capable of looking at things from the other sides viewpoint.

These exact same things can (and have) been said about comic books.  

"This is comic books we are talking about, not a home for one's family, medicine or food.  Greed and avarice is at play here no doubt and everyone participating in this particular market - buyer, seller, and advertiser are all guilty to some degree IMO."

That sentence is just as accurate.  And sadly, I'm beginning to think I'm the only one in here that can either see it....or at least is willing to admit it.

 

A person can both be objective and opinionated.  Comic collecting has a long rich history going back over 7 plus decades. Video game collecting is an infant in diapers in comparison. Yes a video collector might have less than a zero interest in comics but that doesn't change the fact that comics stand on a granite foundation built on a substantial history, which has been further enhanced by Hollywood.  IMO video games might turn out to be a flash in the pants hobby, which in time will plateau and then crater or perhaps not.  The same cannot be said about comics. Comics also can be read and often have have continuity of character.  Video games are IMO as boring and more hype than substance.  I say buyers beware there but you do you and I will do me. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Roger66

[jaybuck43]

On 9/3/2021 at 5:20 PM, Domo Arigato said:

Pose the same question to a video game collector who has no interest in comic books. 

Where do you think comics will be on his list of 10,000+ objects?

I could take your response and basically paste it in for their words and it would make sense.  Spending money on a hobby that collects cartoon drawings on paper.....and some people are paying millions for them??  And within the last year on many of them....prices have doubled......tripled......or more????  They'd have a different opinion of who is the "half-wit" and who is the "emperor".

 

Sometimes I wonder if people are still capable of seeing the other side of things.

These exact same things can (and have) been said about comic books.  

"This is comic books we are talking about, not a home for one's family, medicine or food.  Greed and avarice is at play here no doubt and everyone participating in this particular market - buyer, seller, and advertiser are all guilty so some degree IMO."

That sentence is just as accurate.  And sadly, I'm beginning to think I'm the only one in here that can either see it....or at least is willing to admit it.....which is disappointing.

 

Or better yet, abstract art. Anyone here ever seen what a Rothko goes for? If I had $86.9 million laying around it sure wouldn’t be spent on some colored rectangles on a canvas. And of course, there’s no question the fine art market is rife with manipulation and fraud. Just like video games, comic art, comic books, coins, books, wine, real estate (hey, isn’t there some convicted fraudster who dabbles in all of these items?)

Here’s where I absolutely agree with you. Don’t scream from the mountains that heritage is scamming, because unless you have evidence, there are a lot of people who will pick apart your(lousy) argument and dismiss everything you’ve said out of hand. 

Here’s where I don’t agree with you. I think questions (not accusations) need to be asked.  Shining the light on an area that is rife for corruption needs to be exposed. Does heritage allow anyone affiliated with the company to bid on items they sell? Does wata allow anyone affiliated with the company to submit to them? Does it operate on a blind grading structure? Does it allow people who are affiliated sell graded games? Does heritage give preferential deals to dealers? (I’m not talking about sliding scale fees, I’m talking about waving BPs on buys to realize a higher reported sold price, which in turn generates additional submissions, which in turn garners them more sale fees (including bps on sales not affiliated with the dealer, plus the dealer has additional profit built into their acquisition). These are just a handful of questions. They SHOULD be asked by a regulator or journalist, with care.

and this is where I agree with Dan, this story was mishandled because you’re dealing with an “independent journalist”. Journalists take care when they work on a story. They don’t release information as they are gathering data, they go through a highly structured series of checks, bouncing off the story against their editor, lawyers, etc. “independent journalists” have no idea what they’re doing, they find a thread, and run with it. Ready fire aim is not the way to handle this. It causes too much bad info. And that bad info then covers the real story and gives a deflection. (It’s the reason why even though the national enquirer has broken real stories, most people dismiss anything in it out of hand because just because a broken clock is right twice a day doesn’t mean if want to use it to determine when I need to leave for work.

[MasterChief]

On 9/2/2021 at 5:12 PM, Bronty said:

I think everyone has lost the thread

No kidding. The smoke and mirrors routine is effective.

[Domo Arigato]

On 9/3/2021 at 4:49 PM, Roger66 said:

A person can both be objective and opinionated.  Comic collecting has a long rich history going back over 7 plus decades. Video game collecting is an infant in diapers in comparison. Yes a video collector might have less than a zero interest in comics but that doesn't change the fact that comics stand on a granite foundation built on a substantial history, which has been further enhanced by Hollywood.  IMO video games might turn out to be flash in the pants hobby, which in time will plateau and than crater or perhaps not.  The same cannot be said about comics. Comics also can be read and often have have continuity of character.  Video games are IMO as boring and more hype than substance.  I say buyers beware there but you do you and I will do me. 

They can be both objective and opinionated.  It doesn't mean they are and it's pretty easy to spot when they aren't.  And comics don't have a granite foundation built on a substantial history.  Not even close.  The whole hobby crashed and almost completely died out in the 90's.  And if it wasn't for Hollywood, the entire hobby would likely be a shadow of what it is now.  Video games have been around since the 1970's.  People have collected them for decades.  The first comic grading company only proceeded the first video game grading company by about eight years.  Many, if not most, of the people that have now come into serious money to dump into a collectible hobby have a stronger tie to video games than they do comics.  As to your opinion about how video games might turn out to be a flash in the pants (sic) hobby....that just reflects on your actual knowledge of the hobby.  It's not going anywhere and will likely outlast the comic hobby once Hollywood is done with them.  And your comment about video games being boring just goes back to my point about how many aren't able to see the other side of things.....and proves it.

 

[Roger66]

On 9/3/2021 at 6:02 PM, Domo Arigato said:

They can be both objective and opinionated.  It doesn't mean they are and it's pretty easy to spot when they aren't.  And comics don't have a granite foundation built on a substantial history.  Not even close.  The whole hobby crashed and almost completely died out in the 90's.  And if it wasn't for Hollywood, the entire hobby would likely be a shadow of what it is now.  Video games have been around since the 1970's.  People have collected them for decades.  The first comic grading company only proceeded the first video game grading company by about eight years.  Many, if not most, of the people that have now come into serious money to dump into a collectible hobby have a stronger tie to video games than they do comics.  As to your opinion about how video games might turn out to be a flash in the pants (sic) hobby....that just reflects on your actual knowledge of the hobby.  It's not going anywhere and will likely outlast the comic hobby once Hollywood is done with them.  And your comment about video games being boring just goes back to my point about how many aren't able to see the other side of things.....and proves it.

 

A priest, a rabbi, and a minister...

Are skinny dipping in the forest one day. Joking and talking philosophy and such. Suddenly they hear a large group of locals walking down the path toward them. To their dismay, they realized that they left their clothes hanging on branches on the other side of the path and would have to run past everyone to get them.
The minister gets out of the water, covers his junk and runs as fast as he can past the oncoming people to get his clothes.
The priest, in turn, gets out of the water, covers his junk and runs as fast as he can past the people to his clothes.
Finally the rabbi gets out of the water, covers his face and runs as fast as they can to his clothes.
As they dress the priest turns to the rabbi and asks,
"Why did you cover your face and not your genitals?"
"Well I don't know about you guys, but in my congregation they know me by my face."

[Domo Arigato]

On 9/3/2021 at 5:03 PM, Roger66 said:

A priest, a rabbi, and a minister...

Are skinny dipping in the forest one day. Joking and talking philosophy and such. Suddenly they hear a large group of locals walking down the path toward them. To their dismay, they realized that they left their clothes hanging on branches on the other side of the path and would have to run past everyone to get them.
The minister gets out of the water, covers his junk and runs as fast as he can past the oncoming people to get his clothes.
The priest, in turn, gets out of the water, covers his junk and runs as fast as he can past the people to his clothes.
Finally the rabbi gets out of the water, covers his face and runs as fast as they can to his clothes.
As they dress the priest turns to the rabbi and asks,
"Why did you cover your face and not your genitals?"
"Well I don't know about you guys, but in my congregation they know me by my face."

Two little mice fell in a bucket of cream.

The first mouse quickly gave up and drowned.

The second mouse, wouldn't quit.

He struggled so hard that eventually he churned that cream into butter and crawled out.

Gentlemen, as of this moment, I am that second mouse.

 

[COI]

On 9/3/2021 at 5:49 PM, Roger66 said:

A person can both be objective and opinionated.  Comic collecting has a long rich history going back over 7 plus decades. Video game collecting is an infant in diapers in comparison. Yes a video collector might have less than a zero interest in comics but that doesn't change the fact that comics stand on a granite foundation built on a substantial history, which has been further enhanced by Hollywood.  IMO video games might turn out to be a flash in the pants hobby, which in time will plateau and then crater or perhaps not.  The same cannot be said about comics. Comics also can be read and often have have continuity of character.  Video games are IMO as boring and more hype than substance.  I say buyers beware there but you do you and I will do me. 

Video games are a $159.3 billion dollar industry as of 2020. The movie industry was $32 billion; comics were 1.2 billion. 

There are an estimated 2.6 billion people who play video games regularly. The longest running gaming franchises are now 35 years-old.

So no, not a "flash in the pants", unless by flash you mean something too spicy for these boards, and the pants you're referring to belong to EA and Activision shareholders.

[Domo Arigato]

On 9/3/2021 at 5:07 PM, COI said:

Video games are a $159.3 billion dollar industry as of 2020. The movie industry was $32 billion; comics were 1.2 billion. 

There are an estimated 2.6 billion people who play video games regularly. The longest running gaming franchises are now 35 years-old.

So no, not a "flash in the pants", unless by flash you mean something too spicy for these boards, and the pants you're referring to belong to EA and Activision shareholders.

This goes back to a point someone made earlier in the thread.

These videos and articles are aimed at the uneducated in the subject matter......and it often works.

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Domo Arigato

[Broke as a Joke]

On 9/3/2021 at 3:07 PM, COI said:

Video games are a $159.3 billion dollar industry as of 2020. The movie industry was $32 billion; comics were 1.2 billion. 

There are an estimated 2.6 billion people who play video games regularly. The longest running gaming franchises are now 35 years-old.

So no, not a "flash in the pants", unless by flash you mean something too spicy for these boards, and the pants you're referring to belong to EA and Activision shareholders.

Maybe those numbers are why people seem more inclined to turn the tables on this form of market manipulation this time.  Comic collectors getting screwed and scammed, who cares.  Video game enthusiasts, uh oh...

[COI]

On 9/3/2021 at 6:10 PM, Domo Arigato said:

This goes back to a point someone made earlier in the thread.

These videos and articles are aimed at the uneducated in the subject matter......and it often works.

 

We all have our biases, and the smartest people in the world are ignorant of 99.9% of all things.

This is why the exchange of information, conversation, debate, and sound evidence-based arguments are so important. We're all lost without them. 

[Domo Arigato]

On 9/3/2021 at 4:52 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Here’s where I don’t agree with you. I think questions (not accusations) need to be asked. 

We actually agree on that point as well.  I absolutely think questions need to be asked.  But that isn't what's happening.  And it's certainly not what's happening in this thread.  I have always enjoyed your posts.....but I'm going to use your posts as an example of what I'm talking about.

You kept bringing up the point......along with what seemed like veiled accusations......that Mark was able to sell all of his games on Ebay above market value.  You even stated that you could see this happening once......or twice......or maybe even three times......but for it to happen continuously, something must be going on.

I kept saying that it happens all the time without anything nefarious going on, but it did no good.  Something crooked MUST be happening.

So I took the time and trouble to post proof of another seller I've watched for over 10 years that does EXACTLY this.  He lists his books way above market, AND he sells them at above market.  He does this consistently.  He obviously doesn't sell a lot of books each month (maybe 4 or 5)....but he gets his prices because he waits for the people to come along that want his items now and is willing to pay above market.

Once I posted this proof, nothing else was said of the matter.  That was it.  Time for everyone to move onto a different unproven accusation.  Guilty until proven innocent.  That's not asking questions, and it's not the way to get to the bottom of things.

It goes back to bronty's point below.....it is exhausting.....and on top of that, it's disappointing.

On 9/3/2021 at 12:38 PM, Bronty said:

Perhaps that’s because this thread is exhausting.   It shows what someone I know called the asymmetry of bullcrap  .   Ie it takes an order if magnitude greater energy to dispel bullcrap than it does to create bullcrap.   

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Domo Arigato