Subscription creases 3 3

[Albert Thurgood]

As I understand it, production flaws do not detract from a book's grade.

Creases can take a book down to 3.5  But why aren't subscription creases counted as production flaws? After all, they were caused by the publisher, not by the owner(s). 

[grendelbo]

It occurred post-production.

Also, is it indistinguishable from a pocket crease? How would you be able to tell?

With some older books I don't think subscription creases are treated as harshly as maybe they should be. To a degree they're a more acceptable flaw like date stamps, owners' initials and tape.

[ninanina]

I've heard a book with a subscription crease (and I've got a mess of them in my collection) can be no higher than a 6.0. Also, IMO a subscription crease is a clean fold dead centre of the comic. A pocket crease not so much. Also, if the comic was creased to put in a pocket, it's quite possible the crease could be crooked and for sure, the rest of the comic would/should have a lot more damage from being placed in a pocket. So the difference should be quite noticeable. 

[grendelbo]

On 9/12/2021 at 9:38 PM, ninanina said:

I've heard a book with a subscription crease (and I've got a mess of them in my collection) can be no higher than a 6.0. Also, IMO a subscription crease is a clean fold dead centre of the comic. A pocket crease not so much. Also, if the comic was creased to put in a pocket, it's quite possible the crease could be crooked and for sure, the rest of the comic would/should have a lot more damage from being placed in a pocket. So the difference should be quite noticeable. 

True. I thought of those scenarios, but still, if a book is then pressed, as is now basically standard operating procedure, could you tell the difference with a certainty to assign a grade? Enough to give a book one grade because the crease is "production-related" and a lesser grade because it's been deemed "handling-related"?

Severity and the impact it has on the book structurally, especially with regard to color break, will put a subscription crease as the major (and near only) defect into the 3.5-6.0 range. The standards have been historically set for this flaw. Personally, though I don't think I have any books in my collection with one, I wouldn't mind this flaw on an older comicbook. I like mid-grade issues with flaws that speak to their history, especially those from handling and attention. A subscription crease is like that.

[ninanina]

If I understand the question....if you press a book with a subscription crease, the crease will still be there (back cover) so it won't help. If you press a book with a pocket crease, the crease may (or may not) completely disappear depending on the severity of the crease. At that point, whether or not you can tell the difference on how the crease got there, is a moot point. They will grade the book on how it looks after pressing. They wouldn't care what it looked like before the press. 

[MattTheDuck]

I also have quite a number of books with subscription creases.  I'm no pressing expert (in fact, I've never had it done, and probably won't) but I have subscription crease books that I think would look a lot better after a press than some others.  In some instances, the top and bottom of the FC at the crease are "worn" almost like they were sticking out of the paper sleeve the books came in and rubbed up against other mail, or were smashed into something.  I wouldn't expect those to be helped at all by a press.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/12/2021 at 10:22 PM, Albert Thurgood said:

Creases can take a book down to 3.5  But why aren't subscription creases counted as production flaws? After all, they were caused by the publisher, not by the owner(s). 

It's not a MFG flaw. It's a service flaw. Post-production.

[Albert Thurgood]

But in-house for publishers. And pre-consumer.

[ninanina]

On 9/13/2021 at 12:46 AM, MattTheDuck said:

I also have quite a number of books with subscription creases.  I'm no pressing expert (in fact, I've never had it done, and probably won't) but I have subscription crease books that I think would look a lot better after a press than some others.  In some instances, the top and bottom of the FC at the crease are "worn" almost like they were sticking out of the paper sleeve the books came in and rubbed up against other mail, or were smashed into something.  I wouldn't expect those to be helped at all by a press.

The other issue is getting the crease to disappear on the back cover as that's usually where the permanent crease is. However, I'm wondering if you can possibly do better than a 6.0 if by pressing it, the front cover comes out absolutely flat with no evidence of it having subscription crease. Naturally they would know it had one when they looked at the back cover. Another way to put it is would a book with a subscription crease on the back cover only with a couple corners indented like yours make it to a 7.0 or 7.5?

[Spawnfreak]

On 9/13/2021 at 12:23 AM, ninanina said:

if you press a book with a subscription crease, the crease will still be there (back cover)

Why? Is not the back cover also pressed?

[ninanina]

When they give a book a subscription crease, the front cover is on the outside bent back, so the pages of the comic give it some protection against it getting a permanent crease. However, the back cover on the other hand gets all the pressure. You can press the book all you want, but nothing (IMO) will get that crease out. 

[thehumantorch]

On 9/12/2021 at 8:22 PM, Albert Thurgood said:

As I understand it, production flaws do not detract from a book's grade.

Creases can take a book down to 3.5  But why aren't subscription creases counted as production flaws? After all, they were caused by the publisher, not by the owner(s). 

Albert, I think logic is all we need here.

Production flaws are created during production.  Subscription creases are cause by distribution via subscription.  Perhaps we should call them distribution creases?

[The Lions Den]

On 9/13/2021 at 12:08 AM, grendelbo said:

True. I thought of those scenarios, but still, if a book is then pressed, as is now basically standard operating procedure, could you tell the difference with a certainty to assign a grade? Enough to give a book one grade because the crease is "production-related" and a lesser grade because it's been deemed "handling-related"?

Severity and the impact it has on the book structurally, especially with regard to color break, will put a subscription crease as the major (and near only) defect into the 3.5-6.0 range. The standards have been historically set for this flaw. Personally, though I don't think I have any books in my collection with one, I wouldn't mind this flaw on an older comicbook. I like mid-grade issues with flaws that speak to their history, especially those from handling and attention. A subscription crease is like that.

Good points. I'm thinking 4.5 - 5.5 is pretty standard for a nice looking book with a full length vertical crease that breaks color. It could vary a bit depending on how prominent the crease is, but that's a pretty reasonable range. And as I recall, any book that has a full length vertical crease down the middle of the front cover is generally referred to as a "subscription crease" even if the crease was caused by some kid folding it in half and sticking it in his back pocket...  

[The Lions Den]

On 9/13/2021 at 6:48 PM, ninanina said:

The other issue is getting the crease to disappear on the back cover as that's usually where the permanent crease is. However, I'm wondering if you can possibly do better than a 6.0 if by pressing it, the front cover comes out absolutely flat with no evidence of it having subscription crease. Naturally they would know it had one when they looked at the back cover. Another way to put it is would a book with a subscription crease on the back cover only with a couple corners indented like yours make it to a 7.0 or 7.5?

There's probably some books like that floating around...   

[Albert Thurgood]

On 9/13/2021 at 11:38 AM, ninanina said:

I've heard a book with a subscription crease (and I've got a mess of them in my collection) can be no higher than a 6.0. 

Could it be as high as a 6? Any reference for that?

On 9/14/2021 at 7:37 AM, The Lions Den said:

Good points. I'm thinking 4.5 - 5.5 is pretty standard for a nice looking book with a full length vertical crease that breaks color.

I thought such a crease automatically would get a score of 3.0 or below...?

 

[The Lions Den]

On 9/13/2021 at 10:04 PM, Albert Thurgood said:

Could it be as high as a 6? Any reference for that?

I thought such a crease automatically would get a score of 3.0 or below...?

 

It depends on how nice the rest of the book is, but I've seen many books with a sub crease grade in the 4 - 5 range...

[The Lions Den]

On 9/13/2021 at 10:04 PM, Albert Thurgood said:

Could it be as high as a 6? Any reference for that?

No, but I'd guess the book would have a very light sub crease with only part of it breaking color...  

[grendelbo]

On 9/13/2021 at 8:46 PM, The Lions Den said:

No, but I'd guess the book would have a very light sub crease with only part of it breaking color...  

Or it needs to be 9.4 or higher if not for the crease. Near-perfect with one major defect.

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/13/2021 at 6:38 PM, Albert Thurgood said:

But in-house for publishers. And pre-consumer.

Comics can get dinged and bent by all sorts of post-production handling. It's not a manufacturing defect.

[theCapraAegagrus]

A NM comic with a subscription crease can grade as high as 7.0 from CGC, IIRC.