Talk about renaming “X-Men” because it’s “Offensive” 0

[@therealsilvermane]

On 9/24/2021 at 10:51 AM, Bosco685 said:

You are off ignore because someone this blatantly revisionist of Marvel history (proven multiple times) needs to be addressed.

Are you kidding about the X-Men being a success? Without even bothering to address the rest of your statements... So many kids walking around with X-Men t-shirts and action figures and watching animated videos and loads of comic books read and collected. Including Stan Lee celebrating this is one of his favorite teams ever.

And you want to theorize it was never really a success until now when the MCU refers to them as 'The Mutants'?

Did you read my post or just default to "my post is just another cheer for the MCU"? I said the X-Men weren't truly a hit until about late 1979 to 1980. It's not until 1979 that Chris Claremont and the X-Men were the regular annual winners of the Eagle Awards for favorite comic book and writer. The fact is that the X-Men weren't always a runaway hit from their inception in 1963.

[Bosco685]

On 9/24/2021 at 11:24 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

Did you read my post or just default to "my post is just another cheer for the MCU"? I said the X-Men weren't truly a hit until about late 1979 to 1980. It's not until 1979 that Chris Claremont and the X-Men were the regular annual winners of the Eagle Awards for favorite comic book and writer. The fact is that the X-Men weren't always a runaway hit from their inception in 1963.

Other than stating known history how Len Wein (GS X-Men #1) and Chris Claremont (X-Men #94 and beyond) helped re-establish the popular series after an initial craze that died off over a series of issues?

On 9/24/2021 at 10:18 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

Eh, were the X-Men always that successful, though?

I believe the X-Men, from their introduction in 1963, never really quite connected with readers and their sales were always down compared to other titles. By 1970 or so, X-Men went into reprints. I believe Giant Size X-Men #1 was one last shot at trying something new before the title got cancelled. Readership went up, so Marvel went with it. I also don't think these All New All Different X-Men and Wolverine became a phenomenon until around late 1979 or 1980, maybe half-way through the Claremont Byrne run. So maybe they were a hit from like 1980 to present-day. Also, X-Men stuck around in the present because of the Fox movies. Marvel Comics had begun the process of basically burying the X-Men in the comics and replacing them with Inhumans because Marvel Studios couldn't use them in the MCU. It's only after the Fox purchase that we've seen a resurgence in X-Men in the comics particularly with Hickman's latest reformatting of the X-brand.

Meanwhile, early on, there was a lot of excitement for the title as part of that early Silver Age phase. To the point 1963-1964 sales spiked leading to Marvel matching DC comic book sales, and then surpassing its sales.

But yes, The X-Men were popular enough to the point Chris Claremont was excited to take on the title at the invite of Lein Wein after seeing what he was doing to re-energize this series.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 9/24/2021 at 11:49 AM, Bosco685 said:

Meanwhile, early on, there was a lot of excitement for the title as part of that early Silver Age phase. To the point 1963-1964 sales spiked leading to Marvel matching DC comic book sales, and then surpassing its sales.

But yes, The X-Men were popular enough to the point Chris Claremont was excited to take on the title at the invite of Lein Wein after seeing what he was doing to re-energize this series.

I suppose things don't become fact until they appear in an internet article so here's a recent internet article talking about the struggles of the X-Men to find a consistent readership in their first decade.

[Broke as a Joke]

It's 2021, the X-men have been near the top of the comic peak for over 40 years now.  Any change to their name would discount all those years of brand building as a top tier.  

Or, we just turn everything into some unisex branding so nobody feels left out.  Batperson, Spiderhuman, and Wonder Being.  I feel bad for the future...

[TupennyConan]

Stan 'The Man' Lee.

Problematic. 

[Bosco685]

On 9/24/2021 at 11:56 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

I suppose things don't become fact until they appear in an internet article so here's a recent internet article talking about the struggles of the X-Men to find a consistent readership in their first decade.

Meanwhile, your statement was 'Eh, were the X-Men always that successful, though?'. And added it wasn't until recently Marvel started plugging them back into the comics. Which most recognize Ike Perlmutter was the reported instigator of why the X-Men Universe was put to the rear for Marvel Entertainment as he noted Fox Studios could use any X-title character due to the contract. NOT DUE TO LACK OF READER INTEREST.

Did the X-Men and Fantastic Four Go Into the Disney Vault?

And knowing in advance the assumption may be since Marvel Entertainment didn't own the movie rights so this made sense, actually no it didn't as a business.

if we reflect on the Sony Spider-Man situation, even though the movie rights were sold off years ago Disney bought back the merchandising rights. So no matter what, 100% of that revenue belongs to Disney. So the same with the comic books and all that revenue. If anything, it was an ego decision to be spiteful which later on Kevin Feige was not happy with due to fan reaction.

Hopefully you get a chance to read and research that better. It is quite interesting how as much as Perlmutter benefitted Marvel, his ego hindered its overall growth. Not just the MCU.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 9/24/2021 at 12:22 PM, Broke as a Joke said:

Or, we just turn everything into some unisex branding so nobody feels left out.  Batperson, Spiderhuman, and Wonder Being.  I feel bad for the future..

Batman and Spider-Man are males, so they have "man" in their name. Wonder Woman is a female, so she's called as such. Avengers, Fantastic Four, Justice League, etc are all gender non-specific so there's no issue there. It's not really a "sky is falling" situation even though some try to make it out to be as if menkind are victims of some feminist attack.

The only popular superhero team with this gender-specific name "issue" is the X-Men. It's simply not a gender-neutral name, it's gender specific. Our language does that a lot (as do a lot of Latin languages), uses a male plural to mean everybody. It's kind of a tradition that reflects the male dominance of society in the past.

Being an open-minded person, I don't mind if Marvel can figure out some kind of progressive way to give our X-heroes some movie title that's as forward thinking and future minded as I've always seen the "X-Men" to be.

Edited September 24, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[bentbryan]

On 9/24/2021 at 8:16 AM, Bosco685 said:

 

The OP is new, so didn't realize how we as a community try to consolidate the themes or else we would have individual threads on what new thing was posted recently on an actor or director tied to a production.

Regardless, he needs to be shown how we do things around here. 
 

OFF WITH HIS HEAD!

[WolverineX]

NO. 

[ExNihilo]

On 9/24/2021 at 5:25 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Let's rename our species. We are no longer human.

This just in, Neil Armstrong has been canceled due to his irresponsible proclamation on the moon.

"One small step for man.  One giant leap for mankind."

/s

[@therealsilvermane]

On 9/24/2021 at 1:25 PM, ExNihilo said:

This just in, Neil Armstrong has been canceled due to his irresponsible proclamation on the moon.

"One small step for man.  One giant leap for mankind."

/s

That was back in 1969 when American society was male dominated. Nowadays, if an astronaut makes that first step on Mars, say it's a woman astronaut, she might remark something like "One small step for this girl, one big a** step for humanity" or something like that. We live in a world that's progressing more and more towards societal equality between male and female. I know some old fogies ain't down with that. I hear the ladies are kinda having even bigger problems with equality over in Afganistand.

[@therealsilvermane]

I've noticed that the "zero sum game" is used a lot when arguing against giving women or minorities a bigger piece of the American society pie. Giving women this means that men will lose that. In this nerd culture instance, renaming the X-Men means that Spider-Man and Batman and Superman will also be renamed, which isn't what's going to happen obviously.

Frankly, nobody really cares about the Fox X-Men movies anymore. They were cool back then, but they aren't really beloved. Kids these days hardly even know who the X-Men are much less have any loyalty to the name. I think the only people who care are older comic book collectors. Marvel Studios has considered them when making the MCU but hasn't been behoved to them.

[Clay Johnson]

On 9/24/2021 at 1:21 PM, bentbryan said:

Regardless, he needs to be shown how we do things around here. 
 

OFF WITH HIS HEAD!

Did you just assume my gender? Watch out, don’t make me turn into an offended Twitter sn*wflake.

[Sauce Dog]

This is a non issue, with only one persons (IMHO, correct) opinion that they "don’t know where the future is going...I think it’s outdated."  It simply is addressing that is might something to consider as the brand looks to expand worldwide (let's not delude ourselves into thinking the entire world are big into the X-Men right now, let alone would care about a name change).

Yes sure Old English, the word "man" was unisex, and often in certain contexts in ancient culture as well (such as within the bible, which is all over the place with this usage. People need to stop reading the KJV), but we are not stuck in the past and there are lots of reasons to utilize gender-neutral or gender-sensitive language - especially when it hurts absolutely nobody and takes zero effort. The only people I see kicking up a fuss about this online are GC incels / Terfs.

We've had a million X-titles over the years, so if brand association is important use one of those. X-Factor is perfectly fine (though might be avoided due to obvious jokes & copyright issues with Syco Entertainment), X-Force, X-Corp, hell just slap a giant MXU on it (the Marvel X Universe) and give each movie a catchy subhead ala MXU: Inferno, MXU: Age of Apocalypse, MXU: Welcome to mutant orgy island, we have beer & clones.

[Bosco685]

On 9/24/2021 at 3:26 PM, Sauce Dog said:

The only people I see kicking up a fuss about this online are GC incels / Terfs.

WHAT??

[Sauce Dog]

On 9/24/2021 at 3:36 PM, Bosco685 said:

WHAT??

The most out spoken people vehemently opposed to any sort of adjustments to gendered language, such as pronoun usage (or even the mere suggestion of people kicking around ideas to be more inclusive) are 99% of the time the 'Gender Critical' crowd (which has a very large overlap with TERF talking points). I guarantee once this news spreads you'll see vocal individuals like Graham Linehan jumping onto it and making it a garbage fire of discourse.

[Bosco685]

On 9/24/2021 at 3:46 PM, Sauce Dog said:

The most out spoken people vehemently opposed to any sort of adjustments to gendered language, such as pronoun usage (or even the mere suggestion of people kicking around ideas to be more inclusive) are 99% of the time the 'Gender Critical' crowd (which has a very large overlap with TERF talking points). I guarantee once this news spreads you'll see vocal individuals like Graham Linehan jumping onto it and making it a garbage fire of discourse.

Oh you are talking about those that no matter what take offense to anything 'non-traditional' in their view.

Meanwhile, this over-sensitivity to please everyone so changing names of teams to appease their ignorant view on things is just sad. And hiding behind "hating women or minorities". That's a load of garbage.

[Sauce Dog]

On 9/24/2021 at 3:52 PM, Bosco685 said:

Oh you are talking about those that no matter what take offense to anything 'non-traditional' in their view.

Meanwhile, this over-sensitivity to please everyone so changing names of teams to appease their ignorant view on things is just sad. And hiding behind "hating women or minorities". That's a load of garbage.

I think it's less of 'over-sensitivity' towards trying to please everyone and rather people asking everyone to just be mindful. 

Changing a team name from a comic book doesn't hurt anybody, and is a valid consideration to discuss if doing so means we are being more considerate to a wider range of people who have been historically marginalized (I'm sure some comparisons to baseball team names will be brought up - though those are mostly explicit in their offensive nature). Though in this case I'm sure the corporations behind it are less interested in the ethical interests behind it and more so concerned with maximizing $$$$.

This was simply an opinion/call to consider what it means for the brand going forward as both it and the fanbase grows - I know lots of non-binary/women/trans individuals who love the X-Men and have joked about the name (heck, they even call this out in one of the X-Men movies at one point I think) but they are still fine with it just the same (but they also recognize they are not speaking for everyone and its an interesting discussion to consider) 

[Bosco685]

On 9/24/2021 at 4:15 PM, Sauce Dog said:

This was simply an opinion/call to consider what it means for the brand going forward as both it and the fanbase grows - I know lots of non-binary/women/trans individuals who love the X-Men and have joked about the name (heck, they even call this out in one of the X-Men movies at one point I think) but they are still fine with it just the same (but they also recognize they are not speaking for everyone and its an interesting discussion to consider) 

  Victoria Alonso was one of the Disney-Fox acquisition executives that visited the Dark Phoenix set before the deal was done. But it was clear Disney's PAC clearly had sway over approval. And oddly enough, the line used in the movie was exactly what Alonso noted during the Captain Marvel interview afterwards. 

It was cringe. And I am fine with all people being represented in comic book productions. This was too much!

[Sauce Dog]

On 9/24/2021 at 4:21 PM, Bosco685 said:

  Victoria Alonso was one of the Disney-Fox acquisition executives that visited the Dark Phoenix set before the deal was done. But it was clear Disney's PAC clearly had sway over approval. And oddly enough, the line used in the movie was exactly what Alonso noted during the Captain Marvel interview afterwards. 

It was cringe. And I am fine with all people being represented in comic book productions. This was too much!

No argument there about it being cringe   I only mentioned it as an example of people already joking about the name and implications.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Sauce Dog